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ImpAtom posted:Origin's art is like goddamn magic. I thought it was really good... until they had the extra explaining how it was drawn. At that point, yeah. I realized it was loving magic. No roughs! I mean, who does that?
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Jan 14, 2016 03:44
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Monaghan posted:I always liked this version of Deikun way more, as it made the character way more interesting. Having him be this saintly figure was boring. I find it more boring, though less to do because the character archetype itself and more to do with the context of the show. The original show's story is already rife with corrupt or amoral people making decisions that steer events towards war. Making Deikun just another one of them just makes him the same as everyone else and he doesn't stand out because of it. I'd find it more interesting to have him be a Gandhi like figure preaching non-violence and having his ideals hijacked despite his best efforts or seeing his dream corrupted by comrades instead. You can still have him be a flawed person, just not a flawed person in exactly the same way Gihren, Degwin and much of the rest of the leadership of the various Zeon movements have been. It also just plain makes it more tragic that this good thing he was trying to do actually leads to bad events and that his son could never live up to legacy because life had hosed Char up so much that he couldn't become as good a person as his vague memories of his father made him want to be.
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Jan 14, 2016 16:43
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tsob posted:I'd find it more interesting to have him be a Gandhi like figure preaching non-violence and having his ideals hijacked despite his best efforts or seeing his dream corrupted by comrades instead.  The Origin's decision to make Deikun into a paranoid warmonger is the part I dislike the most about it.
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Jan 14, 2016 16:46
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It wasn't The Origin's decision though. Zeon declaring independence for the colonies and preparing for a fight with Earth was a part of the setting from the start. We just got no real dialogue to go with it. There's even translated early setting notes posted last page which discuss it. Zeon Zum Deikun's Newtype philosophy demands that all humans leave Earth and the Sides been given complete independence and more than a bit of non-Origin material suggests he was already preparing for military action (if not to the absurd degree the Zabis did) prior to his death, if not in the least because they needed Earth's resources still and couldn't be self-sufficient as long as the Federation controlled them. Char's colony drop in CCA is explicitly him following his father's ideals or at least what he believes they would be. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Jan 14, 2016 |
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Jan 14, 2016 16:53
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I was always under the assumption Char's gimmick was ace pilot, poor Newtype. Wheras at first Amuro was a strong newtype and a pilot who wins because his machine is on a level of its' own. By CCA Amuro has become probably the best pilot in the UC and his newtype powers augment that while Char's skill as a pilot has significantly dropped but he's a more steady newtype. Kamille and Judau represent more skewed lines. Kamille is both a ludicriously strong pilot and newtype, while Judau is a poor pilot but an incredibly sensitive newtype.
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Jan 14, 2016 21:05
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Deikun was a pretty prolific and beloved public speaker who would have made his ideals clear to the public many times in many speeches, so if he was a purely peaceful Ghandi-esque figure it would be pretty loving weird for the Zabis to be able to co-opt his message into "Let's drop colonies on the filthy Earthnoids in the name of glorious Zeon Independence". The ease at which the Zabis cashed in on Zeon's death suggests very strongly that the ideology they were pushing wasn't very far removed from Zeon's publicly stated ideals in the first place.
Kanos fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Jan 14, 2016 |
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Jan 14, 2016 21:26
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20 episodes deep into Zeta. I burst out laughing when the 80s guitar wail hit during Kamille and Four's date. This show has excellent music.
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Jan 15, 2016 06:20
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Kanos posted:Deikun was a pretty prolific and beloved public speaker who would have made his ideals clear to the public many times in many speeches, so if he was a purely peaceful Ghandi-esque figure it would be pretty loving weird for the Zabis to be able to co-opt his message into "Let's drop colonies on the filthy Earthnoids in the name of glorious Zeon Independence". The ease at which the Zabis cashed in on Zeon's death suggests very strongly that the ideology they were pushing wasn't very far removed from Zeon's publicly stated ideals in the first place. I could buy that Zeon proposed war as a possibility if the Earthnoids didn't play nice, and then the Zabis ran with that into "kill every loving Earthnoid NOW". I mean, even Gandhi said that sometimes armed resistance is necessary- the image of him as a pure, 100% pacifist is entirely a fabrication.
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Jan 15, 2016 06:21
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Dangerous Person posted:20 episodes deep into Zeta. I burst out laughing when the 80s guitar wail hit during Kamille and Four's date. This show has excellent music.  i'm glad you're at the really good part! Four is one of my favorite Gundam girls
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Jan 15, 2016 06:25
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Dangerous Person posted:20 episodes deep into Zeta. I burst out laughing when the 80s guitar wail hit during Kamille and Four's date. This show has excellent music. I love Four. Her character, voice, theme, design... Glad you're enjoying yourself. dogsicle posted:
Same. To me, Four is everything Lalah should have been.
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Jan 15, 2016 06:26
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LORD OF BUTT posted:I could buy that Zeon proposed war as a possibility if the Earthnoids didn't play nice, and then the Zabis ran with that into "kill every loving Earthnoid NOW". I mean, even Gandhi said that sometimes armed resistance is necessary- the image of him as a pure, 100% pacifist is entirely a fabrication. Yeah, I'd wager he probably said something like "we'll fight if we really have to to win our independence", and the Zabi's co-opted that into "WE FIGHT NOW AND WE'LL KILL THEM ALL!"
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Jan 15, 2016 06:51
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It's also worth noting that Side 3 was independent for an entire decade before Deikun's death, just under embargo from the Federation.
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Jan 15, 2016 09:52
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Zeon kinda lost the whole morally superior ideals thing when they killed billions of spacenoids for their noble cause. I mean, nobody even likes Zeon in 0079, whenever we see other colonists they aren't huge fans of Zeon. Then there's stuff like Zeon booting people out of an entire colony in order to hollow it out and make a superweapon out of it on top of the wanton slaughter stuff.
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Jan 15, 2016 10:08
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Reds posted:Zeon kinda lost the whole morally superior ideals thing when they killed billions of spacenoids for their noble cause. I mean, nobody even likes Zeon in 0079, whenever we see other colonists they aren't huge fans of Zeon. Then there's stuff like Zeon booting people out of an entire colony in order to hollow it out and make a superweapon out of it on top of the wanton slaughter stuff. The fact that there's honest-to-goodness Zeon apologists out there baffles me. They're not even trollishly exultant in crazy bullshit atrocities and playing the heel while knowing drat well they're rooting for a faction of literal space hitlers, they're fans who really have bought into the revisionist "tragic Zeon" narrative and find the Federation somehow more reprehensible. While moral ambiguity makes for potentially more interesting and nuanced stories, Zeon's about as nuanced as destroying a city by dropping another city on top of it.
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Jan 15, 2016 10:18
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I don't even have to make an analogy, I can just describe their literal actions to get the point across.
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Jan 15, 2016 10:20
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I guess people see "freedom for spacenoids!" and don't bother to look into the pool of atrocities and poor representation that's a mile deep and has a giant neon sign saying "literal space nazis" sticking out of it. If Zeon was in charge, other than Gihren's loving master race plan to the point where his own dictator father compared him to Hitler, I can't see much changing. And considering that in the Late UC, where the Federation started to lose power and wasn't properly supervising the colonies, the two villain factions are a monarchy and a loving cult, spacenoids shouldn't be trusted with anything and it turns out your soul not being weighed down by gravity is a metaphor for going insane.
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Jan 15, 2016 10:24
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You know, a shot of Side 2 falling over Sydney would make an amazing promotional poster for a Gundam movie.
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Jan 15, 2016 10:41
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The thing bout Zeon being the purest definition of awful is that everyone in UC keeps reinventing them and their "ideals." Zeon killed half of the human population should be a pretty damning statement but nope, they still have supporters and revivals aplenty. So there must be something attractive about the Principality in-universe so I assume the same thing attracts real life fans, too. In a way, I kinda think SEED did this whole thing better. It fucks up the execution but the PLANTS at least have more legitimate grievances than Zeon. Also it was an actual war between the Earth and the colonies, not the Earth and one colony.
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Jan 15, 2016 11:23
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Like I said a couple pages back, fascism is a hell of a drug.
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Jan 15, 2016 12:19
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NikkolasKing posted:The thing bout Zeon being the purest definition of awful is that everyone in UC keeps reinventing them and their "ideals." Zeon killed half of the human population should be a pretty damning statement but nope, they still have supporters and revivals aplenty. It's the stylish uniforms. Only thing I can come up with.
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Jan 15, 2016 13:43
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Terrible things attracting people is hardly something unrealistic. There's people in reality that are still attracted to the Nazi regime, and there's lots of people that heavily support Communism and all the murderers it created (I live in Argentina, believe me, it is really scary how common it is, even in the goverment). Zeon basically is the exact same thing, people are attracted to an ideal without realizing just how much poo poo it actually brought or how terrible it was, or even justify it because it is a heavily nationalistic ideal and those attract the worst of people. I wish Zeon was less realistic, honestly. But people really are that bad. While I'm not that big of a fan of the UC, I definitely love how Tomino portrays not only Zeon but the people absolutely obsessed with their ideology, not because I support it but because of the entire opposite: it shows a dark but real face of humanity. The Feds are still terrible though, just not as terrible.
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Jan 15, 2016 15:54
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ISIS is basically the closest existing thing to a literal group of supervillains but people still will support them, even people in foreign countries. It takes a specific kind of mindset but every post-Zeon uprising has, as far as we're shown, been actually fairly small but conveniently well equipped. (Likely because Anaheim is perhaps the only organization in the UC worse than loving Zabis.) It's just that they keep appealing to the very specific people who go "gosh, you know, maybe it would have been better if the Zabis won." There's also the basic fact that in the years after the Zabis we got the Titans who are less bad only through the fact they didn't manage to find a way to kill off most of humanity's population and they probably would have if they could. The Titans probably did as much to solidify Zeon revivals as anything because of course they loving did when Zeon losing just leads to the crazy shitlord regime almost taking over the Federation entirely if not for a few specific fuckups. (Mostly on the part of Jerid Messa.)
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Jan 15, 2016 16:16
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Plus, the demise of the AEUG leaves the Zeon remnants as the only faction in the UC with something vaguely approaching a positive ideology - the Federation are pretty firmly in 'more money for us, gently caress you' territory by that point.
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Jan 15, 2016 16:32
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NikkolasKing posted:The thing bout Zeon being the purest definition of awful is that everyone in UC keeps reinventing them and their "ideals." Zeon killed half of the human population should be a pretty damning statement but nope, they still have supporters and revivals aplenty. The Zabis started a war that killed over half the human population. The post-OYW Zeon movements are nominally anti-Zabi and acting in what they claim is Deikun's name, specifically denouncing the Zabis' actions. Deikun (and Zeonism) had legitimate political grievances with the Federation, chiefly around the fact that Earth was denying the spacenoids the right to self-representation and exploiting the colonies and spacenoid labour in order to stuff the pockets of a handful of wealthy elites living on Earth. Zeonism also had a bunch of pseudo-religious stuff concerning newtypes, some of which later turned out to be factually true. On top of that, the Federation's response to the Principality of Zeon's war for independence was to set up the Republic of Zeon as a puppet state, and then give power to the TITANS and the ensuing anti-spacenoid crackdown, which lead to further Federation/spacenoid resentment. The post-OYW resurgence of Zeonism is completely understandable from that perspective - you have a movement which is more ideological than political, with a quasi-religious figurehead, a clear line of succession to a current leadership that claims to act in the name of said figurehead while denouncing the bad stuff that the Zabis did, and issues that have only gotten worse since Deikun started speaking out against them, all against a monolithic opponent that is continually antagonising "your people" and throwing up artificial barriers between earthnoids and spacenoids to promote an us vs. them mentality. The only thing that's "weird" about Zeonism's popularity in-universe is the whole rejecting democracy in favour of royalty/nobility stuff, which is more something that we find weird because of our shared historical background/cultural heritage. That shared history doesn't really apply to people who were born over a century from now, in a world that has a fairly different culture. Fascism is unattractive to us because Nazism is comparatively recent, but give it another century (or even less, given the way things are going in Europe right now  ) and that probably won't be the case any more.
Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Jan 15, 2016 |
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Jan 15, 2016 16:46
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Given Haman was propping Mineva up as a rallying symbol and figurehead, how can Axis Zeon be anti-Zabi? This was something some people were talking about elsewhere, actually. A guy was upset with Unicorn because he couldn't understand where these guys got all their awesome toys since Char threw everything he had into that final battle and then that all got pretty much wiped out. The answer others came up with is that the Sleeves were more Axis than Char's Zeon. Char's Zeon was the anti-Zabi anomaly. I dunno if this is true or not since I never finished Unicorn. I don't doubt the allure of power. People want to be led. But the thing about the Nazis is that most of their followers deny their crimes. That's why Holocaust denial exists. There is no denying what Zeon did. Wait, well, I guess there kinda is if I'm remembering Cima's backstory right. Even other high ranking Zeon remnants thought what she had done was some sort of renegade move, right? It's why she had to throw in with the Federation.
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Jan 15, 2016 16:57
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NikkolasKing posted:A guy was upset with Unicorn because he couldn't understand where these guys got all their awesome toys since Char threw everything he had into that final battle and then that all got pretty much wiped out. The answer is and will always be Anaheim Electronics.
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Jan 15, 2016 17:01
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NikkolasKing posted:Given Haman was propping Mineva up as a rallying symbol and figurehead, how can Axis Zeon be anti-Zabi? Full frontal says in episode 2 that there's a bunch of rich assholes living on the sides that are sympathetic to zeon , which is where they're getting their money from. Anaheim doesn't care who they give mobile suits too as long as they get paid. Hell they probablly give the sleeves a discount, so the feddies will buy more suits to fight the big bad zeon.
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Jan 15, 2016 17:06
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Dangerous Person posted:20 episodes deep into Zeta. I burst out laughing when the 80s guitar wail hit during Kamille and Four's date. This show has excellent music. I love the Zeta Gundam music too, especially the first half of this track when poo poo is about to go down. Zeon apologists suck, Zeon sucks. But well, they do have nice looking uniforms when they aren't going full Nazi. But I also love the Federations uniforms too. So yeah, in the final stretch of Victory Gundam. Everyone is pretty much squaring up to each other in their fleets. It is Tomino time.
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Jan 15, 2016 17:26
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Lemon Curdistan posted:The Zabis started a war that killed over half the human population. The post-OYW Zeon movements are nominally anti-Zabi and acting in what they claim is Deikun's name, specifically denouncing the Zabis' actions. This reading doesn't fit with the established material at all. The Delaz fleet was lead by a man who had an iron hard boner for Gihren Zabi and everything about his legacy. As Nikkolas said, Haman's Axis Zeon was literally using Mineva Zabi as a puppet figurehead for legitimacy and the Sleeves wanted to do the exact same thing except she slipped the noose, and even then when she gave her great big speech at the end she dolled herself up in a Zeon uniform and announced herself as Mineva Leo Zabi before giving the speech because she knew that it would make people care. The Zabis were basically just as canonized as Deikun was and the only one who ran a faction of Zeon that was nominally anti-Zabi and purely pro-Deikun was Char himself who promptly blew it all away on a suicide mission. The biggest danger of fascism is that fascism is seductive to a lot of people as long as they can be convinced that the benefits outweigh the costs, and usually charismatic fascist leaders do this by convincing the people of a state that they're under existential threat from something that only the leader's faction can protect them from, be it a minority, another nation, etc. It's not even an unpopular ideology today as long as fascists are careful to never actually throw a Hitler salute or mention that they're fascists. For a real life example in action, tune in to the Trump campaign. Kanos fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Jan 15, 2016 |
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Jan 15, 2016 18:48
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I said nominally for a reason; Char's neo-Zeon are certainly anti-Zabi, but it's not something universal to all the post-OYW Zeon factions.
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Jan 15, 2016 19:00
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I think part of the problem is that in the UC especially it's hard to separate the idea of independence for the colonies from zeon. And arguing too hard on the other side of that turns into a weird apologia for imperialism. "You see, we had to deny them the right to home rule because they would obviously become a bunch of super Hitlers and kill half of humanity!" A lot of zeon sympathy probably comes from the simple fact that they are colonists who want to be independent.
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Jan 15, 2016 19:02
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Truly the only good people are the colonies that said gently caress that noise and just ignored that war if they could.
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Jan 15, 2016 19:15
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Lemon Curdistan posted:I said nominally for a reason; Char's neo-Zeon are certainly anti-Zabi, but it's not something universal to all the post-OYW Zeon factions. When every major Zeonic movement is pro-Zabi except for one it's really hard to argue that Zeonic movements are nominially anti-Zabi. Even Char didn't open up his big speeches in CCA by talking about how the Zabis were shitheads, he just didn't mention them and we only know that Char's Neo Zeon was anti-Zabi because Char loving hates them on a personal level. Begemot posted:I think part of the problem is that in the UC especially it's hard to separate the idea of independence for the colonies from zeon. And arguing too hard on the other side of that turns into a weird apologia for imperialism. It's really hard to effectively emphasize exactly how insane and incomprehensible the OYW death toll is. The simple fact that the Federation didn't erase Side 3 from existence and execute every single surviving Zeon officer over the rank of lieutenant for nightmarish war crimes after the end of the war is a loving credit to how restrained and benevolent the Federation's response to Zeon was relative to how we would react to such a calamity in real life. For all the Federation's sins they quite literally fought an existential war for the survival of the majority of humanity, won, and then had to deal with continual revivals of the same enemy repeatedly for half a century and managed to do it without going full spacenoid genocide at any point. Even the Titans weren't representative of the Federation's policies as a whole. When every single Zeon movement that ever springs up is led by either a conquering dictator/monarch, an insane genocidal murderer, or some combination of both, it begins to become really questionable why even people who support the ideals of colonial independence continually canonize Zeon. It's like taking up the cause of a strong and independent Germany by picking up a Nazi flag and putting on an armband.
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Jan 15, 2016 19:24
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Judau knew what was up.
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Jan 15, 2016 19:25
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Kanos posted:When every major Zeonic movement is pro-Zabi except for one it's really hard to argue that Zeonic movements are nominially anti-Zabi. Even Char didn't open up his big speeches in CCA by talking about how the Zabis were shitheads, he just didn't mention them and we only know that Char's Neo Zeon was anti-Zabi because Char loving hates them on a personal level. Char explicitly denounced the Zabis in his speech in CCA
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Jan 15, 2016 19:29
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Ka0 posted:Judau knew what was up. I wouldn't be surprised if 'gently caress this, I'm going to Jupiter!' was quite a common thing in the Universal Century.
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Jan 15, 2016 19:35
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To some degree ralling behind Zeon makes sense from an emotional perspective. They almost won. It was a thin margin that prevented it. If Revel hadn't escaped or Amuro hadn't gotten into the Gundam there's a pretty good chance Zeon would have won the war. They were a stone's throw away and stopped only by what amounts to luck and chance. It just also ignores that to do it they had to commit an atrocity greater than any in human history and killed more people than the sum total of war in mankind. Which is, uh, a little extreme.
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Jan 15, 2016 20:54
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I am half way through Reconguista and it is a bad show. The plot is needlessly complex with no payoff. There is no sense of time or place in or outside of battle. Random backpacks show up that serve no purpose other than to sell toys. More and more pointless MS and characters show up on a hopelessly crowded run time. The MS designs are literal knock off toys from the 70's. I have no investment in any of the "characters" and none of them have any qualities to redeem them to the point that if the entire cast was to be killed off and replaced I would cheer. The battles themselves are quite boring despite so many flashing colours and non-repeating animation. All made worse by G-self pulling super robot BS out of no where all the time. The world doesn't make sense as it is impossible not to break taboo and is absurdly poorly done artificial construct that can't work. Mask the Char clone has to be the weakest thing this side of Chronicle. Thank God for IBO. Also gently caress Zeon.
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Jan 15, 2016 20:55
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The world being an artificial construct doomed to failure is literally a plot point in the show. The entire setting is intentionally a series of overlapping restrictions and misinformation that is only barely holding itself together and begins to fall apart as soon as an outside source (Cumpa) is introduced.
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Jan 15, 2016 20:58
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What do these hard boner Zeon guys think of the Titans?
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Jan 15, 2016 20:58
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