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Crain posted:That's where their cries of "tyranny" come from. You know how we joke sometimes about how all these guys seem to cry tyranny at anything and can't figure out where they're seeing it? It's because their magic words aren't working. But they're convinced that they are real, so clearly the answer is that the government isn't following the laws (constitution) because otherwise they'd have full access to the secret UN-Rothschild-Bilderburg-bank account that was created when they were "berthed" and filled with a million billion dollars and they'd be able to walk up to the White House, go inside and arrest (kill) that traitor Obongo because he can't lay claim to the White House and fj;;asjsfkl jskafj adksfjasd..... This combination of facts should be terrifying. We've created the perfect environment for fanatic groups far worse than these fools to form and hobbled any way to really respond to them purely because of racism and politics.
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Jan 15, 2016 17:13
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to us, but to them they can't quite make the connection that it isn't the government ignoring the laws, it's that their "laws" aren't real and don't work that way.
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Perfectly Safe posted:Is that right? My impression was that they didn't recognise the authority of federal officers, and, as a result, would refuse to comply with any instructions and would defend selves if drawn upon. But they don't actually want to go out and kill people, feds or not. They want a standoff. I mean, they were hoping for roadblocks and sieges, right? Can't really see any other reason for their being in an off-season wildlife sanctuary. I don't know if any or many of them are crazy enough to want to die for their cause. I think the end goal is to provoke the government into setting up roadblocks and creating the setting for another Waco or Ruby Ridge bloodbath...and then just before the cannons fire, the brave citizens and sheriffs of the United States cry out "No more!" and side with the militia.
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Jan 15, 2016 17:16
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chitoryu12 posted:I don't know if any or many of them are crazy enough to want to die for their cause. I think the end goal is to provoke the government into setting up roadblocks and creating the setting for another Waco or Ruby Ridge bloodbath...and then just before the cannons fire, the brave citizens and sheriffs of the United States cry out "No more!" and side with the militia. Oh yeah, that certainly appeared to be their expectation - that they would ignite an uprising of support against the evil federal government. That's why it's quite useful to allow it to go on - it's just such a miserable failure and, since I suspect that these guys are more afraid of being mocked than being in a standoff, I can only expect that they're extraordinarily disappointed. I was more interested in the characterisation of these guys as being inclined to open fire on federal agents on sight. It sounds like hyperbole. Obviously it makes a huge difference whether they are homicidal or not.
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Jan 15, 2016 17:26
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I'm getting really concerned about Bundy's tone in the latest interviews and press conferences. Seems kind of cranky. Why haven't the FBI sent in the PlayStation 4's and hookers yet? If this armed militant starts to think the govt might be considering asking him to tone it down the whole situation could spiral out of control. We already have a whole gang of rogue actors causing trouble who appear to be some sort of "town" they menacingly named "Burns", probably as an arson threat to the Resource Center. Their leaders call themselves "sheriffs" and "judges" and believe they are the sole administrators of the law. Complete bullshit.
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Jan 15, 2016 17:28
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Roadblocks don't make a raid inevitable. Eventually they would run out of supplies, and either surrender or attack the law enforcement. Either one is acceptable, as both discredit their movement.
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Jan 15, 2016 17:28
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Pope Guilty posted:Fun from the stream chat: Somebody yesterday insisted that every Super Bowl halftime show is full of Masonic imagery. Katy Perry's lion was some Egyptian poo poo and the chess dance represented how the Illuminati have the world in "checkmate." When I pressed him, he admitted that Left Shark probably didn't symbolize anything.
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Jan 15, 2016 17:33
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Talmonis posted:Roadblocks don't make a raid inevitable. Eventually they would run out of supplies, and either surrender or attack the law enforcement. Either one is acceptable, as both discredit their movement. And is pretty standard tactics in these situations. Also https://twitter.com/amandapeacher/status/687837389092331521
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Jan 15, 2016 17:35
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That halftime show was so bomb I'm a seahawks fan and still remember it fondly.
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Jan 15, 2016 17:36
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That's it, shoot them all
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Jan 15, 2016 17:36
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being uneducated is a hell of a drug. it takes most people years of meth cocaine and pot to come up with these things. but here cowboys have done it all with vapes and alcohol. remarkable.
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Jan 15, 2016 17:38
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Radish posted:Yeah if putting up a roadblock is all it takes in order for these guys to become violent with lethal intent towards agents of the state we are just putting this off since if you send a cop to their house in six months to arrest them once everything has settled down I don't see why they wouldn't be just as likely to shoot that guy. That's a good way of looking at the situation. It makes me think that regardless of how the optics of the situation would pan out to anyone: it is much more preferable to risk retaliation at this standoff than to risk some cop getting shot in a few months/years just because he tried to arrest one of these dudes.
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Jan 15, 2016 17:40
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This is why we have government owned land with parks, designated wilderness, and areas managed by BLM, so that a bunch of know-nothings don't just go carving up random poo poo because their small minds perceive they need a loving road. Right there. Who cares about birds right? Cattle and corn forever.
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Jan 15, 2016 17:42
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Bast Relief posted:This is why we have government owned land with parks, designated wilderness, and areas managed by BLM, so that a bunch of know-nothings don't just go carving up random poo poo because their small minds perceive they need a loving road. Right there. Seriously, this is the thing that has made me legitimately angry. A road. Amazing times we live in.
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Jan 15, 2016 17:44
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While doing this, Bundy is reported to have repeatedly cackled and muttered "let's see one of those local rancher pricks try to fix this".
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Jan 15, 2016 17:48
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Talmonis posted:That bloodbath would have been entirely on them. That's really all that matters when it comes to whether or not to engage them. If a raid botches, you have Waco or Ruby Ridge. Don't raid them. If they attack law enforcement, they get put down on live TV as the aggressive terrorists they are. Yeah right. It would take nanoseconds for the Right Wing Rage Machine to kick into high gear. Obama administration murders true patriots?
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Jan 15, 2016 17:48
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Their access to heavy machinery bothers me greatly. It should be removed via drone. Add the cost of the machinery to the tab.
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Jan 15, 2016 17:49
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Taerkar posted:Yeah right. It would take nanoseconds for the Right Wing Rage Machine to kick into high gear. They'll do that anyway. There is no outcome that the Right Wing media will not turn into a victory for insane militias and the so called tyranny of Obama.
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Jan 15, 2016 17:51
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You just need one really big dude, a holocaust cloak, a wheelbarrow for him to stand in, and a couple of guys to push him towards the building.
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Jan 15, 2016 17:52
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Doctor Butts posted:It makes me think that regardless of how the optics of the situation would pan out to anyone: it is much more preferable to risk retaliation at this standoff than to risk some cop getting shot in a few months/years just because he tried to arrest one of these dudes. Sure, but that only makes sense if your position is that they can only be arrested while holed up, all together, in a bird sanctuary, and while they're waiting for the feds to turn up and arrest them. I honestly don't believe that they actually will kill federal officers on sight anyway, though.
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Jan 15, 2016 17:52
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Honestly, just keep sending them Everclear until the drunken arguments divide them further.
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Jan 15, 2016 17:52
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kartikeya posted:And is pretty standard tactics in these situations. A road to where?
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Jan 15, 2016 17:54
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Perfectly Safe posted:Is that right? My impression was that they didn't recognise the authority of federal officers, and, as a result, would refuse to comply with any instructions and would defend selves if drawn upon. But they don't actually want to go out and kill people, feds or not. They want a standoff. I mean, they were hoping for roadblocks and sieges, right? Can't really see any other reason for their being in an off-season wildlife sanctuary. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_West_Memphis_police_shootings They aren't the typical "gently caress the government until the government arrests you" type of people. The 16 year old opened up on two police officers with an AK and then double-tapped them both to make sure they were dead. They were stopped for having an Ohio license plate and responded by killing two people. They cannot be "reasoned" with. They will attempt to kill armed feds if given the chance. They proclaimed that their desire is for another WACO to happen to discount the fed. The more innocent people that die the better.
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Jan 15, 2016 17:55
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Perfectly Safe posted:I honestly don't believe that they actually will kill federal officers on sight anyway, though. in a mob, one crazy person shooting could make them all start shooting. divided, they'd almost all back down
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Jan 15, 2016 17:57
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theflyingorc posted:I think there's a huge difference depending on whether they're alone or they're together The feds should probably start arresting them when they leave the sanctuary and go in town, then
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Jan 15, 2016 17:59
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theflyingorc posted:in a mob, one crazy person shooting could make them all start shooting. That's how the police work, at least.
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Jan 15, 2016 18:00
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Taerkar posted:Yeah right. It would take nanoseconds for the Right Wing Rage Machine to kick into high gear. It's pretty much guaranteed to do so no matter what. I still prefer the option where law enforcement protects the people of Burns over the feelings of violent sovereign citizens. If they're as volatile as people in this thread are claiming (which they could be, I'm not saying they aren't) then, quote, 'isolating and containing' them is not just the smart thing to do in this situation, it is the only responsible thing to do, because otherwise you're just risking another cop killing in a restaurant, or a parking lot, or as part of a traffic stop, or maybe some meter maid gets blown away for daring to ticket their truck, etc. The threat of violence is also violence, and they started out this lovely little party by threatening to shoot people who tried to remove them. These guys aren't peaceful protesters at the very least. Also: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jan/14/armed-oregon-militia-federal-law-legal-experts-prosecution-prison-fines?CMP=twt_gu quote:Hayes argued that there have to be serious charges in this case otherwise anti-government activists will continue to form militia and launch these kinds of aggressive protests. The Oregon militia was emboldened to take over federal lands, in part because Cliven Bundy, Ammon’s father, has evaded consequences for a similar standoff with the government in 2014, he said. That article contains a nice rundown of just a few of the things that this group have done that break Federal law, as well as possible punishments.
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Jan 15, 2016 18:00
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LeoMarr posted:They were stopped for having an Ohio license plate and responded by killing two people. They cannot be "reasoned" with. They will attempt to kill armed feds if given the chance. They proclaimed that their desire is for another WACO to happen to discount the fed. The more innocent people that die the better. they should still be treated with extreme caution, but being an idiot mistrustful of authority doesn't make you completely out of your mind edit: from watching them on the stream yesterday, I don't think the Bundy crew is going to randomly shoot any cops. the only concern is that they put up a signal that's more likely to bring out maniacs than any sane people - the fact that some of the groups in Burns ARE NOT with them probably scares me more than anything being done on the actual reserve
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Jan 15, 2016 18:00
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Spun Dog posted:A road to where? It's probably serving as a driveway. Im sure their vehicles were getting stuck in the sleek so they built a road through the refugee
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Jan 15, 2016 18:00
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Several individuals among the militia, including Ryan Bundy, have stated very clearly that they will not be going to prison.
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Jan 15, 2016 18:01
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LeoMarr posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_West_Memphis_police_shootings I'm aware of that, and it comes as no surprise that there are sociopaths in the militia movement, nor that one went away from the Bundy standoff disappointed that they didn't get to kill any authority figures. But you made a broader statement - that these (SovCit) types will effectively kill on sight any federal agent. That characterisation is at odds with what we've experienced so far, so I'm going to say that you've overstretched with it.
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Jan 15, 2016 18:01
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As a Millennial I posted:Several individuals among the militia, including Ryan Bundy, have stated very clearly that they will not be going to prison. yeah, but do they mean "I'll die first" or do they mean "I can't be arrested because the US government doesn't have the authority to take me in when I say these magic words"
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Jan 15, 2016 18:03
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theflyingorc posted:I think there's a huge difference depending on whether they're alone or they're together We've gone out of context here. I'm not saying that there's no scenario in which they'd fire on federal officers, only that they won't open fire automatically upon seeing one. e: or more to the point, that the assertion that they will open fire upon seeing a fed is inaccurate.
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Jan 15, 2016 18:03
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theflyingorc posted:they should still be treated with extreme caution, but being an idiot mistrustful of authority doesn't make you completely out of your mind I don't think this is a fair representation of what a Sovereign Citizen is. They are not simply 'mistrustful of authority' being a SovCit takes that a whole hell of a lot further.
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Jan 15, 2016 18:04
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theflyingorc posted:all sovereign citizens are not equal. there are an estimated 300,000 of them, and a handful of incidents of violence. sovereign beliefs are a strong indicator that violence is on the table, but the average sovereign gets tazed or pulled through a car window, rather than shooting every cop they see. No I agree, but the Bundys and their devout followers will die "In defense of the people". Similar to what happened originally when they went from protest to occupation and their numbers went from 150 to 15, Not ever person at the Compound is going to die in defense of the bird refugee, however some will and that poses a problem. They already tried to goad the FBI and Sheriff department into killing them by having a show of force in front of the local offices of the respective bodies. There's a difference between being distrustful of authority and committing insurrection with the intent of a bloody showdown with the government to spark a civil war. WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Jan 15, 2016 |
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Jan 15, 2016 18:05
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Doctor Butts posted:I don't think this is a fair representation of what a Sovereign Citizen is. They are not simply 'mistrustful of authority' being a SovCit takes that a whole hell of a lot further. there's different levels of being in the movement. every belief set has different levels of commitment, and they've got "Christmas and Easter" sovereigns like anybody else
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Jan 15, 2016 18:06
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ooooh there's people talking about satan on this livestream https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5obtfR5Fito
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Jan 15, 2016 18:09
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I'm going to form a militia and liberate Area 51 for the people - we're paying for it and we deserve the truth!
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Jan 15, 2016 18:10
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theflyingorc posted:yeah, but do they mean "I'll die first" or do they mean "I can't be arrested because the US government doesn't have the authority to take me in when I say these magic words" I know what you mean, like when Ammon said that he would take up Sheriff Ward's offer whenever he felt like it, and he would be leaving the state as a free man. But Ryan's tone sounded more sinister, which I guess isn't surprising considering he's got a history of running from the law.
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Jan 15, 2016 18:10
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Before we get too deep into this 'the Feds need to do something' 'No it is too dangerous!' argument again while waiting for today's nonsense stream to start up, let's compromise. The Feds resolve this in some mostly peaceful way which ends all threat to either the townspeople or the occupiers, arrest everyone without incident, and Pete Santilli gets shot in the dick.
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Jan 15, 2016 18:14
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Someone went in and tore down the "Harney County Resource Center" sign  https://www.facebook.com/backcountryhabitat/videos/980875531985426/
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Jan 15, 2016 18:16
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