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Even when I try to figure out reasons for it, I still don't understand what it is about G-Reco that makes it impenetrable to people.
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Jan 19, 2016 13:39
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Mask is part of what is considered the lowest class and he has a chip on his shoulder about Bellri since in his point of view the dude is privileged as hell while he has to work his rear end off to get any recognition
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Jan 19, 2016 13:39
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I mean, I can sort of see some reasons, but based on my experience I can't see why they're such a big problem. And I don't know why some people get so upset over it. Bellri is the son of a powerful politician, a grade skipper, and had an extremely powerful mobile suit handed to him and when he showed up again he was opposed to Mask. Mask has talent and ability but has to scrape himself up from the bottom, and his team is basically cannon fodder thanks to being Kuntala. A lot of people see the final battle and for some reason think that Mask was just pissy the whole time, while Mask has plenty of reasons to hate Bellri from his perspective and the final battle is basically all of them spilling out as he rants while extremely angry. Even worse are the people who think he's merely imagining racism because the series didn't spend time showing Kuntala being beaten up in an alley or something. Reds fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 13:41
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oohhboy posted:Then there is the asinine episode where everybody starts fighting over space trash. Everybody was trying to do their own little gambits, but it was just embarrassing. People died over space trash. This one was explained pretty drat clearly; do you see the big extravagant ship in the background? That belongs to the people who bring the Photon Batteries to Earth. If Mommy and Daddy catch the children squabbling and scratch up their sweet ride as a result, they might get pissed off enough that there'd be no Photon Battery shipments for anyone. Everyone involved is at least smart enough to understand that they all might want to captain or rock the proverbial boat, but you don't try to sink it out from under everyone.
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Jan 19, 2016 14:09
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It was quite clear what was going on, it didn't make the fighting any less stupid.
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Jan 19, 2016 14:37
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MonsieurChoc posted:Edit: Like, all factions have clear stated goals, It almost feels like someone played a prank on the Gundam fanbase by releasing two different shows under the same name and picked one at random to show to each of us. I mean I got 18 episodes in, and I honestly only have a vague at best idea of what anyone is even trying to do or why. It just seems like a bunch of people I barely know fighting each other simply because that's what they do and randomly switching sides for seemingly no reason. The series seems to vaguely hint at things, then move on without exploring or explaining further. Or maybe it's a show where if you miss something early on, you're just hosed for the rest of the series.
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Jan 19, 2016 14:42
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Gao posted:It almost feels like someone played a prank on the Gundam fanbase by releasing two different shows under the same name and picked one at random to show to each of us. I mean I got 18 episodes in, and I honestly only have a vague at best idea of what anyone is even trying to do or why. It just seems like a bunch of people I barely know fighting each other simply because that's what they do and randomly switching sides for seemingly no reason. The series seems to vaguely hint at things, then move on without exploring or explaining further. Or maybe it's a show where if you miss something early on, you're just hosed for the rest of the series. I'll break out the good ol' faction chart. Spoilered for those who haven't watched and all that, and cut back to around where you're at instead of the full final-arc rundown. Neddy Seagoon posted:
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Jan 19, 2016 16:28
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Gao posted:It almost feels like someone played a prank on the Gundam fanbase by releasing two different shows under the same name and picked one at random to show to each of us. I mean I got 18 episodes in, and I honestly only have a vague at best idea of what anyone is even trying to do or why. It just seems like a bunch of people I barely know fighting each other simply because that's what they do and randomly switching sides for seemingly no reason. The series seems to vaguely hint at things, then move on without exploring or explaining further. Or maybe it's a show where if you miss something early on, you're just hosed for the rest of the series. That more or less sums up my interpretation of it. I've watched the finale twice now due to watching it with a friend and I still can't tell you what the hell they are fighting over or why I should care. I mean here are the final battle of a bunch of gundam shows: Gundam - The final battle at A Baou Qu to break Zeon's back once and for all. It's all or nothing for Zeon as it is their final defence line. Zeta - A Giant cluster gently caress battle between multiple factions for control of a giant colony laser. SEED - A battle for a nuclear death rate that will wipe out earth while simultaneously attempting to keep the federation from nuking the plants. SEED Destiny - Stop King eugenics from going full Hitler and doom lasering the protagonists special snowflake Japan stand in. G-gundam - Punch the devil in the face for reasons (I haven't seen this in years). Wing - Stop a colony drop/super laser. Endless Waltz - Stop war from coming back (wtf) 00 - reclaim the supercomputer and defeat robot Hitler. Age - Prevent genocide. By comparison in G-reco the finale is just... Everyone decides to go down to earth like it is a giant game of King of the Hill or some clan fight from battle tech. It is never explained to the viewer what we happen if the Venus globe folks with this fight, or if the capital wins, or if the moon folks win. Do they own earth now? Is every single active mobile suit in existence involved in the battle so the last man standing gets to be King? Because they seem to be popping new mobile suits with alarming speed, making it hard to believe that the winner would be able to overwhelm any of the existing factions. Is it just a pointless bloodbath? I think that is supposed to be the point we take away from it but as a finale that is kind of weak and goes again to my point that humans don't act that way. By this point we are to believe that these people have been at low intensity war for months. At a certain point even naive future people kind of have to realize that death is a thing and that maybe they need to focus on military objectives. I don't hate G-reco all that much, I just feel that so much of the plot is things we are told and not shown and involve stakes that make sense on a personal level. If the finale was a handful of people fighting to the death because they all just hate one another and there is no goal other than gently caress you Bellri then that would be fine, but we are supposed to believe there is more to it than that, that this is the deciding battle of a war and it really doesn't feel like it.
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Jan 19, 2016 16:37
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G-Reco is about stopping a war from breaking out. The finale is "oh poo poo the war is literally just about to begin right in front of us, let's do something about that". I'm not sure what's hard to understand about that.
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Jan 19, 2016 16:41
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The war did break out, it's that just about everyone died inside of an hour and they didn't bring remotely enough forces to take the planet. The MCs won because they were literally the last ones standing.
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Jan 19, 2016 16:44
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Reds posted:G-Reco is about stopping a war from breaking out. The finale is "oh poo poo the war is literally just about to begin right in front of us, let's do something about that". I'm not sure what's hard to understand about that. They shot down an entire countries space navy during the finale as an almost incidental thing. I'd say the war had pretty well started.
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Jan 19, 2016 16:55
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What you both seem to keep missing is that the moral of G-Reco is most people don't actually want war, it's just a handful of people with the right influence pushing for it. The whole point of stopping everyone involved is that they are the focal points for their respective faction's plans for their own plans to conquer Earth. Putting each of them down hard kills off the entire faction's drive for all-out war.Caros posted:They shot down an entire countries space navy during the finale as an almost incidental thing. I'd say the war had pretty well started. Which ends the war outright, because, hey now they don't have a navy anymore.
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Jan 19, 2016 16:56
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Reds posted:G-Reco is about stopping a war from breaking out. The finale is "oh poo poo the war is literally just about to begin right in front of us, let's do something about that". I'm not sure what's hard to understand about that. This. The point is that the first real war in a very long time had broke out but it was being pushed by ambitious leadership in opposition to the will of their people and everyone involved was struggling to make their side come out on top except the Megafauna faction who were trying to figure out how to avoid it becoming a horrifying bloodbath. Remember that for all its problems the G-Reco landscape is not a warlike one. People are all trying to jocky for position but the big push for all-out war is Cumpa and there are scenes which make it clear Cumpa is heavily manipulating. (Like the scene where he is grumbling about the Earth barbarians wanting to party instead.) There are some warlike people in all the factions but the war is an almost artificial construct that could be resolved through talk and negotiation. As it is by the end. There's a lot of relevant real-world meaning in the idea that loud warmongering voices getting into a position of power doesn't necessarily represent a culture's desires as a whole, both in Japan with the increased push towards militarization (which is a lot of what G-Reco is commenting on) and in other countries. Edit: Also, for good or ill, Tomino's belief in the idea of a corrupt leadership pushing the population towards war has been there literally since the original Gundam. The Tomino novels even have an entire plot about how Newtypes can sense the 'black flames' of evil coming from the Zabi leadership and has white base specifically go to assassinate the remaining Zabis to end the war. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 16:59
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The War didn't end via talks, it ended when everybody died. The MCs didn't even do the heavy lifting as the factions were killed each other off leaving them to do clean up.
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Jan 19, 2016 17:08
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oohhboy posted:The War didn't end via talks, it ended when everybody died. The MCs didn't even do the heavy lifting as the factions were killed each other off leaving them to do clean up. ... yes it did? Like we're specifically shown that a lot of both factions survived and it was the corrupt leadership that died. The peaceful resolution didn't come until there were people willing to not fight and almost everyone got what they wanted to some degree or another. That was the entire point of the ending is that there was a non-violent resolution but none of the leaders were willing to come to it. I mean it's kind of a "kill the horrifying corrupt leaders" message but welcome to Tomino Gundam where a corrupt power-hungry leadership being the primary factor for war has been everyone from Gihren Zabi to Gym Ginganham. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 17:16
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I just went back to watch bits of the end and there are no talks. You don't even get a ceasefire scene like at the end of SEED. It ends with Mask and Bellri(Funny enough with him hoping Mask's machine moves so he can kill him) taking each other out then Aida unilaterally declaring to pick up survivors. End scene, epilogue, nothing about any peace plan. As another poster said, it was king of the hill. In episode 24 there are people waving papers about a "peace plan" which is thinly disguised imperialism, but no one actually talks to each other. Turn A did the whole peace talks goes south thing a lot better multiple times.
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Jan 19, 2016 17:55
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G-Reco is crap and this is one of the only places you'll find it defended.
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Jan 19, 2016 19:09
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Chickenfrogman posted:G-Reco is crap and this is one of the only places you'll find it defended. 
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Jan 19, 2016 19:17
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oohhboy posted:As another poster said, it was king of the hill. So did you ignore everything that came after that with unified people from different factions and everything? Chickenfrogman posted:G-Reco is crap and this is one of the only places you'll find it defended. The funniest thing of all is that about five years ago this was exactly something someone said about Turn-A Gundam on these very forums. (Although honestly it's nice to see the opinion on Turn-A shifting so hugely. I suspect more competent translations and a series of crappy shows helped that.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 19:20
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While I don't think it will be as big as the shift with Turn A i bet that in a few years down the line the general reception to G-Reco will be more positive Probably in a way comparable to ZZ's turnaround
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Jan 19, 2016 19:27
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I'm the weird outlier of this forum in that I liked all of 00 way more than g-reco. 
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Jan 19, 2016 20:07
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G reco supporters are pretty rabid here. To me, it was a prettily animated show with bizarre choices, pacing and 'story' throughout. Tomino writes insano people and its a problem across just about all of his shows. G reco is interesting for the fact that most of the characters doing things without apparent motivation are likable for once, unlike most everyone in zeta for instance. This forum used to hate wing and zz and fawned over 08th ms team. I think with time some of this stuff will balance out better instead of the weird polarizing debates we get now.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:27
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Wing is still bad.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:30
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Most Gundam shows are good. Some are very good!
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Jan 19, 2016 20:39
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I still don't get the common complaints about Tomino characters being weird. Do you, like, know real human beings? Who act on emotions and make mistakes? Cause that's usually what all these complaint boil down to. It's like all those complaints about people not acting like emotionless player characters in movies: it's loving nonsensical.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:40
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DamnGlitch posted:This forum used to hate wing and zz and fawned over 08th ms team. I think with time some of this stuff will balance out better instead of the weird polarizing debates we get now. Well all three of those are great so
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Jan 19, 2016 20:41
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My greatest wish for G. Reco's legacy is that someone hires the art director for more work in the vein of the show because it's really loving nice to look at
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Jan 19, 2016 20:41
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At the very least, I'm glad the G-Reco mech designer is continuing to work on Gundam going forward.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:43
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MonsieurChoc posted:I still don't get the common complaints about Tomino characters being weird. Do you, like, know real human beings? Who act on emotions and make mistakes? Cause that's usually what all these complaint boil down to. It's something i like to talk about but since I'm phone postin I'll give a tldr and say that the way characters act should be in line with the setting a story is conveying and I feel that applies to G-Reco quite well
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Jan 19, 2016 20:48
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MonsieurChoc posted:I still don't get the common complaints about Tomino characters being weird. Do you, like, know real human beings? Who act on emotions and make mistakes? Cause that's usually what all these complaint boil down to. Tomino characters often have weird or even nonsensical motivations but usually motivations that make sense for the world or characters that he is writing in. You have to generally be willing to accept that he's writing characters who might make weird decisions based off that. This is in addition to his sometimes-odd views leaking through or the fact that Tomino does enjoy comedy and sometimes will stick it in random bits of comedy for fun.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:48
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MonsieurChoc posted:I still don't get the common complaints about Tomino characters being weird. Do you, like, know real human beings? Who act on emotions and make mistakes? Cause that's usually what all these complaint boil down to. It's not about people having emotions, it's about how they express them. Tomino's ear for dialogue is... very strange, and his writing often feels like he has a grand narrative planned out in his head and occasionally forgets to relay the details to the rest of us. Lemon Curdistan posted:At the very least, I'm glad the G-Reco mech designer is continuing to work on Gundam going forward. For reals. Gyobu was probably G-Reco's biggest contribution to the franchise.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:51
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Monaghan posted:I'm the weird outlier of this forum in that I liked all of 00 way more than g-reco. Nah, I liked 00 more than G-Reco too. It's probably my favorite 21st century Gundam tbh.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:51
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Monaghan posted:I'm the weird outlier of this forum in that I liked all of 00 way more than g-reco. Especially weird considering your avatar. I'm with you on that though, both because I really dig 00 and because G-Reco didn't bowl me over. I think there's a lot to appreciate in G-Reco, which has very pretty art, dynamic animation, a fun setting, some great mobile suit designs and a wide variety of factions all of whom are given some depth and none of which are painted as unanimously wrong. I just don't like the characters beyond a superficial level, like finding Klim and Mick fun or the story itself though. I don't think there's anything wrong with them, and I can see what the show was going for, I just failed to connect on any kind of emotional level to either the characters or plot and was as such not particularly affected by either. I'm not going to blame this on the show, since it obviously worked for a good few people regardless, but it didn't work for me. I think I'd have liked it a lot more if it had twice as many episodes and the entire thing was given room to breathe so that the show could afford to spend an episode or two on Towasanga exploring the place and getting to know it's oddities and it's people a bit better. Or Venus. Or even really Sankt Porto. I do think the show has other problems, like Raraiya feeling completely superfluous and Aida's character not feeling like her arc really pans out and such, but I think in a show with slower pacing any of those would be something I could easily over look to enjoy the overall product and that that's the real killer for me.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:54
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I'm not big on 00 but I found its overall message really weird and distorted and didn't like any of the character arcs except maybe Tieria. Considering it is sandwiched between SEED Destiny and AGE however it's the best of a bad lot. Edit: I also like Setsuna less by the day because I think Mika is basically an extremely similar character written several levels better, but I also admit that it would be very very easy for Mika to drop the ball so that's a 'for the moment" thing.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:54
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Repeat viewings of say zeta take the characters from unreasonable unlikable assholes to kinda reasonable in context i guess but still unlikable assholes. People often bring up that real humans do irrational things which is very true but theres prooobably a reason its brought up as a thing that people dislike about tomino shows so often. Theres a level were we can accept certain behaviors and a line when that behavior goes from "a person would do that" and "a person might do that but its frustrating and not entertain or endearing as a written character"
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Jan 19, 2016 20:56
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ImpAtom posted:So did you ignore everything that came after that with unified people from different factions and everything? Turn A was a continuous series of diplomatic facepalms with the first half dragging out too long. You also have to handwave a lot things to get the world to work. While it was consistently on message and tone, has pretty high artistic value, but entertainment value was fairly low overall when it came to fighting. I am not a fan of the overwhelming part about dark history covering all Gundam as it sends a very nasty message. I prefer to see it as a separate continuity in itself. It needed to play the Laura angle more as a way to take a break from the constantly repeating events/skirmishes. You aren't going to have a turnaround for G-Reco as it has too many flaws and outright negatives with not enough positives. Any softening will be more in the lines of he's old cut him a break, elevating it to at best skip it from straight negative. You have to gently caress up sometime. ZZ is goofy, but is a entertaining reprieve from how dark Zeta was. It has Hamon Kahn who is a pretty neat villain who has an interesting relationship with Judau. Judau goes through massive amount of character development as with most of the crew. No Katz of any kind. It has a Gundam which has some serious flaws. The newtype relationships aren't as overblown as 4/Rosamia. It eases up on the women hating. The crew aren't the best pilots so they have to work hard for their wins. Monaghan posted:I'm the weird outlier of this forum in that I liked all of 00 way more than g-reco. 08th ms team is great as it brings Gundam back towards it's real robot roots. 080 is good, but takes too long to do what it does. IBO is nice and grounded. ThunderBolt a real visual treat. MonsieurChoc posted:I still don't get the common complaints about Tomino characters being weird. Do you, like, know real human beings? Who act on emotions and make mistakes? Cause that's usually what all these complaint boil down to.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:57
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I like ZZ a lot, but you can't pull the "At least it doesn't have a Katz" card when BEECHA is in it. Beecha, man. BEECHA.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:02
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Tomino writes good female characters. Sayla, Haman, Elle, Roux, All the girls from Turn A, Shakti, Ana and Cynthia and Sara from Overman King Gainer, and all the girls from G-Reco, even if we clearly disagree about that.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:02
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DamnGlitch posted:Repeat viewings of say zeta take the characters from unreasonable unlikable assholes to kinda reasonable in context i guess but still unlikable assholes. There are tons of fantastic shows which are about lovely people doing terrible-but-plausible things where a major part of the focus is the frustration and unhappiness that comes from that.. Breaking Bad is a great example of it. oohhboy posted:Tomino has a lot of trouble writing women as in he seemingly hates them a lot of the time, although this isn't an issue in MSG or Turn A. Otherwise he writes ok characters that progress other than G-reco. G-reco non-characters are absurd, obnoxious and beyond paper thin. G-Reco has character progress and no character ends the show where they started. You may not like it but it's pretty silly to claim otherwise. Like Bellri has a clear defined arc where he goes from arguing with Aida and believing wholeheartedly in Su-Cord to changing his tune 180 degrees. At bare minimum that's not even a case of it being subtle or anything it's right onscreen. Edit: Like, G-Reco has a lot of problems with pacing, general structure and so-on so it confuses me that people try to add things to it. It's certainly a flawed show at least. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 21:02
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Raxivace posted:I like ZZ a lot, but you can't pull the "At least it doesn't have a Katz" card when BEECHA is in it. At least he was being trained to be a captain, Mondo is the more useless of the pair.
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