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Evil Fluffy posted:For someone who keeps bringing up the Hutaree militia do you actually know anything beyond the wikipedia page? Because the fact you keep comparing it to incidents caught on video and open confessions by Bundy Ranch/Oregon militia members implies you have no idea what you're talking about as you're comparing conspiracy and planning with actual things happening live and on video. Do you? The Hutaree case had people caught on video openly declaring their desire to go kill cops, which is way worse than the Bundy protesters' "self-defense" rhetoric. And yes, the fact that they're talking about "self-defense" against cops rather than openly going to war against them does matter in the courtroom. We all know what it means and what they want it to mean, but there is a difference and it does matter. And Cliven Bundy's issues going back decades simply aren't relevant to this conversation; the FBI isn't going to arrest him over unpaid fines or anonymous angry phone calls. The FBI didn't get involved until the actual armed standoff itself (which they have started an investigation into, according to leaky witnesses who were interviewed during the course of the investigation), and they're going to keep the investigation going for a good long while, because I can't imagine they're confident in their ability to convince a judge that refusing to pay a permitting fee equates to conspiracy to overthrow the US government. theflyingorc posted:I'm sorry Gary, but I live in your house now, and we need to respect the current culture It worked for Texas, Israel, and the US itself, so I'm not really surprised he's trying a "gently caress you, your poo poo's mine now and I'm keeping it" tactic with such a long history of success.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 20:19 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 22:40 |
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Crain posted:Also low interest loans...from somewhere...just like the government offers for businesses. there's literally no way they could be more over their head the only way that what they're doing would work would be if literally the entire united states full on bought into their sovereign citizen rhetoric edit: it's very difficult to not frame everything they're saying as sedition right now
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 20:20 |
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theflyingorc posted:it's cool, he already thought of that. since he's the "current culture" then his land shouldn't be taken, but it was OK to take from the native americans, no big deal, Nothing says cutting edge culture like mounting your horse and insisting that everyone pretend its the 1700's.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 20:22 |
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theflyingorc posted:good news, he's going to get the loggers back on the mountain, and he's going to build a mill to create hundreds of jobs the fed will support them and send advisors on constructing such things because they don't want another waco/okc bombings
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 20:22 |
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Main Paineframe posted:Do you? The Hutaree case had people caught on video openly declaring their desire to go kill cops, which is way worse than the Bundy protesters' "self-defense" rhetoric. And yes, the fact that they're talking about "self-defense" against cops rather than openly going to war against them does matter in the courtroom. We all know what it means and what they want it to mean, but there is a difference and it does matter. Sounds like the judge in the Hutaree case was a real loving dipshit then, creating precedence like this. These people are dangerous.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 20:23 |
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SocketWrench posted:It's tarp man I'm not a bloodthirsty person in general, but yes, Bundy accidentally falling into a pit would make me happy.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 20:23 |
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kartikeya posted:http://www.kgw.com/news/4000-artifacts-stored-at-oregon-refuge-held-by-armed-group/15241509 quote:Bundy said people interested in archeology are welcome to explore the refuge, but that cattle ranchers and loggers should have priority when it comes to land use. A Winner is Jew posted:So I'm cool with the federal government giving a bunch of native americans guns, body armor, and armored vehicles if it means they get to "reclaim" the land from these assholes. fade5 fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Jan 19, 2016 |
# ? Jan 19, 2016 20:24 |
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Lotka Volterra posted:I'm not a bloodthirsty person in general, but yes, Bundy accidentally falling into a pit would make me happy. It's pretty terrifying how earnest and charismatic Ammon's goddamn nonsense is. Not a word of it is true, but you can see how it would appeal to a person who was both desperate and stupid edit: Ammon mentioned armored vehicles being seen around Burns and the reporters just took it at face value. Something's up.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 20:28 |
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Lotka Volterra posted:I'm not a bloodthirsty person in general, but yes, Bundy accidentally falling into a pit would make me happy. On the other hand, they do have to spend their entire lives being them. I would be perfectly happy if Pete especially wandered the world for eternity and never once had another human being outside a very small group of morons in similar hats agree with him.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 20:30 |
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So where are these APCs Pete claimed he saw?
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 20:34 |
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As a Millennial I posted:So where are these APCs Pete claimed he saw? Maybe they saw an Unimog drive past.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 20:37 |
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theflyingorc posted:It's pretty terrifying how earnest and charismatic Ammon's goddamn nonsense is. I'm gonna laugh if it's just a goddamned Brink's truck.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 20:38 |
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DrNutt posted:Sounds like the judge in the Hutaree case was a real loving dipshit then, creating precedence like this. These people are dangerous. Oh, absolutely. The judge in the Hutaree case was a tremendous rear end in a top hat, who threw out a perfectly good militia prosecution on idiotic grounds like "you can't assume the individual militia members share the militia leader's openly stated desire to kill cops and overthrow the government" and "if they don't have a specific concrete plan that all of them have openly agreed with then it's just political speech". Just look at these loving quotes: quote:“The government’s case is built largely of circumstantial evidence,” U.S. District Judge Victoria Roberts said in a 28-page order dismissing the charges before the case was sent to a jury. Problem is, the FBI doesn't get to say "well, that judge was an rear end in a top hat", ignore it, and soldier on. Letting a militia prosecution end in failure, not even through acquittal but through the judge openly calling bullshit on the case and kicking it right out of the courtroom, emboldens anti-government types way more than being slow in the investigation. That means they have to live with those precedents, and try their best to adapt to them so that they won't get screwed by them again. I think it was a horrible ruling, but if you want to know why the FBI is being so utterly passive here and letting the protesters get away with so much (to the point where they only arrested the one guy for the vehicle theft), it's because last time they tried to prosecute a militia group a federal judge told them it was ridiculous to infer things from what the militia members were saying and doing. The FBI absolutely wants to prosecute here, but they're going to be meticulous to the point of near-absurdity first, and that means it's going to be slow and quiet. There's no way they haven't infiltrated the poo poo out of this occupation, and agents are going to be poring over every second of video for months after this thing ends, but the decentralized and semi-spontaneous nature of this thing means that the scale of this thing is going to be way beyond the usual militia investigation - and I won't be surprised if it takes much longer. And there's no way the FBI is going to break it up before summer, as the chances of organized violence just get lower every day. If this was going to erupt, it was going to erupt in the first few days when law enforcement was caught by surprise and the only people there were diehards expecting immediate confrontation. Now that a bunch of hangers-on have showed up, law enforcement has settled in for the long haul, and Ammon is savoring his fifteen minutes of fame, there's no way they're going to escalate if left to their own devices.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 20:44 |
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Main Paineframe posted:Oh, absolutely. The judge in the Hutaree case was a tremendous rear end in a top hat, who threw out a perfectly good militia prosecution on idiotic grounds like "you can't assume the individual militia members share the militia leader's openly stated desire to kill cops and overthrow the government" and "if they don't have a specific concrete plan that all of them have openly agreed with then it's just political speech". Just look at these loving quotes: Long shot, but is there any chance there is a potential appeal to the US Supreme Court regarding this case? Because that would seem prudent given the nature of the precedence put in play by that ruling.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 21:00 |
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Main Paineframe posted:Do you? The Hutaree case had people caught on video openly declaring their desire to go kill cops, which is way worse than the Bundy protesters' "self-defense" rhetoric. And yes, the fact that they're talking about "self-defense" against cops rather than openly going to war against them does matter in the courtroom. We all know what it means and what they want it to mean, but there is a difference and it does matter. You know what else matters? Video and photographs taken by the militia assholes themselves actively violating the law. "I really want to kill x" isn't remotely the same thing as "look I just uploaded a video to Facebook showing me and others destroying Federal property." So no, you don't know the difference. Thank you for confirming it. That the Hutaree case's judge was a loving dipshit doesn't make the arguments against acting on these people any less idiotic. The people involved in the occupation don't have ignorance as an excuse. They are actively taking part in criminal activity. Even the ones who haven't been dumb enough to post videos and pictures of themselves breaking the law.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 21:15 |
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Evil Fluffy posted:You know what else matters? Video and photographs taken by the militia assholes themselves actively violating the law. "I really want to kill x" isn't remotely the same thing as "look I just uploaded a video to Facebook showing me and others destroying Federal property." So no, you don't know the difference. Thank you for confirming it. That the Hutaree case's judge was a loving dipshit doesn't make the arguments against acting on these people any less idiotic. The people involved in the occupation don't have ignorance as an excuse. They are actively taking part in criminal activity. Even the ones who haven't been dumb enough to post videos and pictures of themselves breaking the law. "Destroying federal property" is a charge you aim at children who joyride in a National Park golf cart and wreck it i agree that they're not remotely the same thing, because one is a gigantic, major, serious crime and the other one is baby stuff.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 21:30 |
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This guardian article is from a few days ago, but it lists out some of the crimes & sentences in play at the moment.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 21:41 |
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Evil Fluffy posted:You know what else matters? Video and photographs taken by the militia assholes themselves actively violating the law. "I really want to kill x" isn't remotely the same thing as "look I just uploaded a video to Facebook showing me and others destroying Federal property." So no, you don't know the difference. Thank you for confirming it. That the Hutaree case's judge was a loving dipshit doesn't make the arguments against acting on these people any less idiotic. The people involved in the occupation don't have ignorance as an excuse. They are actively taking part in criminal activity. Even the ones who haven't been dumb enough to post videos and pictures of themselves breaking the law. Yeah, it's a good thing the FBI waited a week or two for them to start openly stealing and breaking poo poo, instead of rolling in guns blazing on the first day to arrest them for misdemeanor trespassing. The longer they're left there, the more crimes they commit and the more things the FBI will be able to charge them with. It's important for them to pile up the little things, since (thanks to Hutaree) the FBI won't be able to hit them with a big-ticket charge anytime soon. Most of the individual things they've done are each only worth a year or two in prison, and only for the specific individuals who have been proven beyond any doubt to have done those specific things; the longer they run rampant doing poo poo like logging into government computers and taking down cameras, the worse it gets for the most prolific offenders as they end up stacking up lots of little crimes into a heavy sentence. For example, "destroying federal property" has a monetary threshold where anyone who does less than that amount of damage can be punished with up to one year of prison, and anyone who does more than that amount can be punished with up to ten years. On top of that, some of them have racked up something like a year for trespassing, six months for intimidating or impeding government officials, something like up to five years for unauthorized access to government computers, whatever the punishment is for stealing government property since some of that's probably happened by now, and probably a few other things too. But those charges can only be levied against the people who actually committed those specific actions, so I'm quite sure there's a few undercover agents keeping a close eye on exactly who takes down each camera and exactly who logs into each computer. Main Paineframe fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Jan 19, 2016 |
# ? Jan 19, 2016 21:45 |
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Evil Fluffy posted:You know what else matters? Video and photographs taken by the militia assholes themselves actively violating the law. "I really want to kill x" isn't remotely the same thing as "look I just uploaded a video to Facebook showing me and others destroying Federal property." So no, you don't know the difference. Thank you for confirming it. That the Hutaree case's judge was a loving dipshit doesn't make the arguments against acting on these people any less idiotic. The people involved in the occupation don't have ignorance as an excuse. They are actively taking part in criminal activity. Even the ones who haven't been dumb enough to post videos and pictures of themselves breaking the law. We are speculating that the FBI's objective here is to use terrorism charges against them. They don't seem to care at the moment about the 5-10 year felonies for destroying federal property right now. They want the Bundys to go down as terrorists. This is important because it means that anyone that supports them can then go down for material support of terrorism. Then flipping people on the inside of the militias becomes trivial. ("Work for us or get life in prison. PS, no parole in the federal system")
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 21:52 |
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quote:"We also recognize that the Native Americans had the claim to the land, but they lost that claim," Bundy said. "There are things to learn from cultures of the past, but the current culture is the most important." Aaaaaaaaand that whooshing sound is my sympathy going out of the window. Do what you will with them.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 21:52 |
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Why did the hammonds go to jail again? Can they prove who exactly was holding matches when starting the arsons? I mean they don't have video footage or anything of the fires. I mean yeah he instructed his nephew to drop lit matches along the countryside until he ran out, and said "We are going to light up the whole country on fire", but that's just speech so why are they in prison? In light of Huratee, sounds like the Bundys have a case!!!!!!!
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 21:54 |
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many johnnys posted:Why did the hammonds go to jail again? Can they prove who exactly was holding matches when starting the arsons? I mean they don't have video footage or anything of the fires. This would be like Huratee if the feds were trying to get the Hammonds for attempted murder of the firefighters and "only" got the arson charge. The FBI was trying to get Huratee for rebellion against the US government. They "only" got convictions for their illegal firearms.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 21:58 |
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many johnnys posted:Why did the hammonds go to jail again? Can they prove who exactly was holding matches when starting the arsons? I mean they don't have video footage or anything of the fires. it's...pretty difficult to explain quite how dumb this is there's several dozen people at the reserve. if they all blame each other for any individual act, it can be very easy to avoid charges because you can't convince a jury at each one's trial that they did any given action. the hammonds CLAIMED to have started the fire, the feds managed to convince a jury that the reason was to hide illegal poaching, not that the fire occurred
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 21:58 |
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So it turns out there's a guy who has worked and lived on the refuge for decades. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb-nxVkxXFM
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 21:59 |
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Main Paineframe posted:Yeah, it's a good thing the FBI waited a week or two for them to start openly stealing and breaking poo poo, instead of rolling in guns blazing on the first day to arrest them for misdemeanor trespassing. The longer they're left there, the more crimes they commit and the more things the FBI will be able to charge them with. It's important for them to pile up the little things, since (thanks to Hutaree) the FBI won't be able to hit them with a big-ticket charge anytime soon. Most of the individual things they've done are each only worth a year or two in prison, and only for the specific individuals who have been proven beyond any doubt to have done those specific things; the longer they run rampant doing poo poo like logging into government computers and taking down cameras, the worse it gets for the most prolific offenders as they end up stacking up lots of little crimes into a heavy sentence. For example, "destroying federal property" has a monetary threshold where anyone who does less than that amount of damage can be punished with up to one year of prison, and anyone who does more than that amount can be punished with up to ten years. On top of that, some of them have racked up something like a year for trespassing, six months for intimidating or impeding government officials, something like up to five years for unauthorized access to government computers, whatever the punishment is for stealing government property since some of that's probably happened by now, and probably a few other things too. But those charges can only be levied against the people who actually committed those specific actions, so I'm quite sure there's a few undercover agents keeping a close eye on exactly who takes down each camera and exactly who logs into each computer. Yeah, and if the FBI waits until they murder some folks, then they'll be able to really throw the book at'em!
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 21:59 |
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I saw the argument about the FBI piling up little things for each individual militant instead of throwing the book at them for their little armed uprising, and thought "well how does that apply to the hammond case that ostensibly kicked this thing off from the start"? I overlooked that the Hammonds straight-up admitted to the fires (I had a brainfart and assumed they'd deny)
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 22:04 |
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kartikeya posted:So it turns out there's a guy who has worked and lived on the refuge for decades. dude owns edit: lol but not as much as "dressed like a bird" lady
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 22:12 |
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Bundy supporters now claim that the kid who testified against the Hammonds had mental issues and made it all up or was paid off by the feds. The photos of his sandpaper wounds, idk, I guess he did that to himself? And the police made up the Hammonds' confession?
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 22:13 |
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Cliven Bundy first threatened to shoot a BLM agent over his grazing fees back in the mid 90s. If we wait and stack charges long enough maybe we can see if this is a cyclical thing where Ammon turns his gov't subsidized auto shop into a sovereign armed castle and his daughter takes over a Montana amtrak repair station to demand the return of the gold standard.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 22:16 |
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Happier times at the refuge.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 22:20 |
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If they wait long enough God will do the punishing for them! Those sins are REALLY piling up! No planet for you!
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 22:20 |
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Man those are some cool birds and it actually seems like it would be a rad place to visit.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 22:23 |
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Here's the "armored personnel carrier" I'm gettin hype
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 22:31 |
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As a Millennial I posted:Here's the "armored personnel carrier" where'd you get this from?
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 22:32 |
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theflyingorc posted:where'd you get this from? Same place I get all my posts, @jjmacnab. Don't know where she got it from but it's apparently what Pete was talking about earlier.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 22:34 |
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Fill it with dildos. Have a robot drive it up to the compound. They will surround the vehicle.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 22:38 |
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Zanzibar Ham posted:Yeah, and if the FBI waits until they murder some folks, then they'll be able to really throw the book at'em! While literally true, the likelihood of anyone getting murdered in Burns is minimal, and in the unlikely case of a murder plot surfacing there, undercover agents will attempt to co-opt and redirect it into an FBI ambush. Redirecting violent plots into honeytraps is an FBI specialty, although usually the left whines about entrapment when someone who wants to commit a terror bombing is sold a fake bomb by the FBI and guided into planting it right in the viewing range of an FBI hidden camera.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 22:38 |
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Perfectly Safe posted:Anaesthetists are specialised medical professionals who still very occasionally kill people even though they have pretty perfect real-time control over dosage. They could still use BZ. Just lob a shell in, and round them up while they're all having a shared delusion. Aside from the SovCit one, I mean.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 22:48 |
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benzoapyrene posted:They could still use BZ. Just lob a shell in, and round them up while they're all having a shared delusion. Aside from the SovCit one, I mean. BZ might cure collectively cure their delusions.
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 23:03 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 22:40 |
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LeoMarr posted:BZ might cure collectively cure their delusions. we might even get a sequel to Jacob's Ladder out of it
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# ? Jan 19, 2016 23:12 |