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DuckConference posted:Maybe I'm being pessimistic because I worked in a nightmare job only a few years ago, but this guy is putting up more red flags than a Turkish parade and sounds like bad news. Yeah, me too... I can't remember if I mentioned it, but I worked for a guy who put a camera behind his best employee because he thought he stole something. He didn't; it was an inventory mistake from his 65 year old brother hand counting stuff. He would berate, talk about salaries in front of people, make unrealistic goals, etc. I feel you on the nightmare job stuff  .I wish I had been able to meet other employees there to get a feel for everything. The owner may just be bad with the hiring process because he's a rich millionaire and doesn't want to deal with it, but the actual environment is chill and laid back. He did say it was a very casual relaxed environment.
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Jan 18, 2016 22:54
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Knyteguy posted:Alright well I got the "written offer" at $75k. I've browsed through the employee handbook, and yeah the policies seem a little dickish. I'm not sure how to feel about it. More later when I get back. What are the policies?
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Jan 18, 2016 23:00
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Series DD Funding posted:What are the policies? Unpaid maternity leave (but it is four months of unpaid maternity leave so that's a plus). quote:Visits from friends and family should be kept to a minimum and should not exceed fifteen (15) minutes. quote:Employment of relatives is prohibited I don't know, maybe that's standard. Here I've had my grandmother come for lunch and stuff at the office. It's not a huge deal and it wouldn't affect me, it's just the corporateness of it that I haven't had to deal with for a long time now. My wife's work encourages family to work there for example. They're constantly in the running for best place to work in this city.
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Jan 18, 2016 23:09
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I feel like you are negotiating with yourself and losing. The fact that flex hours are a "maybe later" thing when you won't even be working with anyone else is possibly the biggest red flag of all. Who gives a poo poo if you come in 7-4 or whatever instead of 9-5? Only crazy people that you shouldn't want to work for. You weren't even going to go to this interview, now it sounds like you are ready to call him up and accept the first thing he offered. If you want to keep considering it, do this: 1. Slow way down and relaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaax 2. Tell him you will think about it and get back to him on Wednesday 3. Decide if you even want the job 4. If you want it, ask for what you want. You don't even really care if you get this job, why not ask for everything? Ask for 80k (I would say 85k but you kind of already screwed yourself on this one), 20 days off a year (sick + vacation), immediate flex hours while you figure out traffic, and some kind of guaranteed "profit sharing" structure. It's like less about the job offer and more about learning to just ask for what you want, and not let people brush you off. Did you ever ask your current boss about this elusive bonus that he talks about?
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Jan 18, 2016 23:17
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Droo posted:I feel like you are negotiating with yourself and losing. Nailed it. All of this advice is great. Bolding is mine.
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Jan 18, 2016 23:21
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Lol six days of vacation... I am WOEFULLY underpaid in my current position, which isn't even a desk job, I manage beverage programs for a large restaurant and my starting, probationary offer was two weeks vacation, slightly less in salary and more sick time accrual than that. You need to hit the brakes and really consider this. Maybe you don't use your sick time, but you now have an infant/toddler who will be getting sick all the damned time. You're gonna need that sick time.
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Jan 18, 2016 23:23
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Edit: ^Yeah agreed. I expect some family stuff sometimes.Droo posted:I feel like you are negotiating with yourself and losing. Yeah, agreed. I'm excited about making more money. You're right that I didn't really want this job. I want results, I think. Would I negotiate before telling him I need to think about it, or after? I'm waiting for him to get back to me on the questions I asked, which is more info on the benefits, and to clarify when he said I could come in at 6:00am whether that meant I can work 10 hours a day for free!! or if I could take off at 3:00pm. Assuming the latter but you never know. I haven't regarding the bonus.
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Jan 18, 2016 23:25
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I would wait until you hear back from him on those two things if he is already supposed to be finding out more information. Then I would do some very loose math to figure out what this job will cost you in extra travel (gas + car maintenance + time spent - e.g. $3000/year + 10 hours a week). Once you hear back from him and have a good idea of how much of your raise will be eaten up immediately by extra expenses, you can get back to him with a counteroffer. Even if you aren't really interested in the job you could go through the counteroffer process and ask for like everything you want + 95k or something just so you get some practice doing it (and you never know, you could get it). I would think that 24 hours after you get details from him is about the right time to send a counter (so if he gets you info tomorrow morning, then reply on Wednesday morning). Honestly it's a lot like dating - the more desperate you seem the worse off you are going to end up.
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Jan 18, 2016 23:34
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Droo posted:I would wait until you hear back from him on those two things if he is already supposed to be finding out more information. Then I would do some very loose math to figure out what this job will cost you in extra travel (gas + car maintenance + time spent - e.g. $3000/year + 10 hours a week). Thanks. I was pretty good at dating I think, so that could be a good mindset for me. Answers: "We open at 6:00 and we're slow after 3:00, so after you get settled you could start as early as 6:00 and work 8 hours. No guarantee on profit sharing. It may be offered like a bonus. " I believe the flex scheduling isn't immediate because he wants someone to train me on the systems and stuff. There is a guy there who is not a developer, but I guess he knows what's going on with the IT operations of the company. Now that you mention it, my current boss got offered to work where he works multiple times. He kept asking for more vacation than they wanted to give, etc etc. It seemed to work out for him, because he's now the VP of operations and got most of what he wanted. So... get back to him tomorrow around noon or so?
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Jan 18, 2016 23:43
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SiGmA_X posted:520 hours less family time per year, and effectively a dollar less per hour. It's hard for me to think of it like that, because I see $6-700 more a month and I think of it like "It'd be like no car payment." I'm not used to the professional world, and I think that's good for my well roundedness in the work place, but bad for the negotiating stuff. I've had lots of jobs, but they were always very rigid with pay, vacation, etc throughout the positions that I worked in. Meh you guys leveled me again thanks. I'm not feeling like I need to take this job. I mean I literally put in my app last Wednesday, and I have an offer today. I think that's a good sign that I can find something else, too. You guys may laugh and stuff if I tell you, but I know what my end goal is with my finances. I just need to formulate how to get there. A lot of this is just a distraction I think. I need to clearly define what I'm going to do, and then come up with a plan of action to do it.
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Jan 18, 2016 23:57
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You should think more about long term gains than short term. Yeah, this job is an extra $1k a month now but you'll still be underpaid and in a job with very little room for advancement. I have no idea what the Reno market is like but you really need to be looking at software companies and entry level to midlevel jobs. The best thing for you careerwise is to work with a bunch of other developers you can learn from and build both professional contacts and skills that you can leverage into an even better job in two years even if it means you don't see an immediate increase in compensation. Bouncing around from one crappy one man shop to another is going to put a ceiling on your career that isn't nearly as high as it could be. edit: also why does a development job require you in the office at set hours if there's no other developers there? that's a huge red flag
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Jan 19, 2016 00:38
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the talent deficit posted:The best thing for you careerwise is to work with a bunch of other developers you can learn from and build both professional contacts and skills that you can leverage into an even better job in two years even if it means you don't see an immediate increase in compensation. Bouncing around from one crappy one man shop to another is going to put a ceiling on your career that isn't nearly as high as it could be. Also if you make $29/hr now, you're gonna end up making the same amount per hour (slightly less), and just working longer hours. Those extra 500 work hours, in exchange for 13k, are the same as if you kept your current job and added 500 hours of other work at $26/hr. You're easy to bulldoze when it comes to job offers (this is a flaw but it's not a huge flaw; it's a problem I struggled with a lot more in the past too, and I used the buddy system to help me get through it), so you need to step back and get practice saying no or saying you need more time or whatever, and try not to let your initial excitement at an offer lead you astray (you have an entire thread of people here who are happy to give you career advice, so you can come to us to get a more objective view of things). EDIT: Also, give us your "projected debt free date". It used to be May 2017. What is it now?
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Jan 19, 2016 01:43
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I got 3 weeks PTO on my fresh out of college job. Six days or whatever is laughable. Edit: maybe 4. I can't remember. sheri fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 02:19
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Ignoring all the salary stuff, the commute, the other payroll benefits....this guys sounds terrible to work for. He gets resentful at his staff because they've been working for two months and he doesn't know what they've been doing? Sounds like a failure on his part to set clear goals and regularly communicate with and get feedback from the people who work for him. He's gone through a string of bad hires? Maybe the problem really was with all of them (but then that indicates that he's really bad at using the interview process to find the right person for the role) but its more likely that the problem was on his side. Why did they leave? Would they have positive things to say about him? As the saying goes, the one constant in all your failed relationships is you. The one constant in all his bad hiring decisions is him. Did you get a feel for the company culture? For what your coworkers will be like? Given the stuff he said in the interview, and the fact that he's already backtracking on profit sharing, do you think you can trust him? Would you enjoy working for him? Does he seem like he would be someone who would focus on your career development? Did you click with him personally? I understand that money, benefits, commute etc are all important, but so is finding a group of people to work with that you will enjoy spending 40 hours a week with, and a company whose goals you are interested in achieving. In my experience those two factors are big reasons for whether someone is happy or unhappy at their job.
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Jan 19, 2016 02:37
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Alright so I'm thinking of asking for $85,000 15 days vacation 15 days sick time Profit sharing beginning in 3 months (after the probationary period) Title as full stack developer And if it falls through then oh well. What do you guys think? I'm on my phone so I'm not going to try to reply to above posts. I did read them though. Knyteguy fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 03:35
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Normally, you can't ask for more than what you already mentioned earlier without sounding like an idiot, so don't do that in the future. That said, this guy seems like a pretty poo poo boss, so ask for unlimited Red Bulls or something while you're at it.
Inept fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 03:58
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I have hesitated to post anything because this thread got so mind-bogglingly, eye-bulgingly stupid with all the lying and hiding and stuff. But here goes. There are several things I think you ought to take away from this whole "new job" thing. 1. Do you have a LinkedIn account? Depending on the job season, I get as many as 3-4 recruiters or HR people hitting me up per day, with more and more of that being remote jobs, which would work great for you. 2. The boss sounds like a nutter and if you come back after the fact asking for more money, I think he's going to flip his poo poo, and tell you to get lost. 3. Make a plan. Make a plan. Make. A. Plan. Here is how all of this could, and should, go down: "Hey BFC, I received a job offer for $85k, and it is X miles away, resulting in Y extra dollars needed in the transportation budget. I discussed with the wife and we decided to take the offer and relocate to be closer to both of our jobs. This will incur a lease break penalty, but that will be 'paid for' in Z days due to all the transportation savings, and also allows me to be with the little one more. This will move our debt free date from <blah> to <sooner than blah> so it's a win-win-win. Hurray." What, instead would probably go down: "HEY BFC! I got a new job!" < 2 months later > "HEY BFC! I incurred the lease break penalty and have been eating fast food every day for the past 2 months because of how much time I had to spend driving!" Queue BFC ripping you a new rear end in a top hat because reasons, which leads to you getting demotivated, disappearing again, buying an LS3 to swap into the camaro, etc. So the point is just think about things and develop a plan. Also make a LinkedIn, put stuff like "I'm passionate about technology" in the profile, and make a github. You will be amazed the difference it makes. My Rhythmic Crotch fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 05:40
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Knyteguy posted:Alright so I'm thinking of asking for If you take this job -- even if the guy agrees to all of this -- where do you see yourself professionally a year from now? Three years from now?
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Jan 19, 2016 06:34
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I honestly cannot believe anyone has the gall to offer 6 days vacation  . Over the pond legal minimum is 20 and any sort of officey job has 25 as an industry standard. Continental Europe gets even more.
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Jan 19, 2016 12:47
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Ask for all the stuff outlined by other posters already. You will probably get rejected. That's fine because this guy put up more red flags than a communist overthrow. You really need to work on occupying a place of less mental desperation, confidently asserting yourself, and practicing losing an opportunity where the salary number is bigger but the overall compensation is drastically worse. Actually sit down and read the negotiating thread where people have successfully gotten great compensation packages and stood up to prospective employers' crappy offerings. Your professional self esteem is so low that you're thinking about a really bad offer because the number is attractive to you. That isn't your only problem by a long shot, but you'll continue to have to manage your finances under tighter constraints as long as you negotiate as poorly and are as urgently in need of taking other work as you've demonstrated yourself this time around.
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Jan 19, 2016 16:22
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Yeah, use this as practice, but I wouldn't take that job. The offer numbers for vacation/sick leave alone tell me it's a place I don't want to be. Plus no retirement matching. But definitely read the negotiating thread. It helped me go from 42k to 65k to 80k over 4 years. The offered salaries were 55k and 72k.
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Jan 19, 2016 16:28
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Guys... Knyte should definitely take this job. Are you not entertained?
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Jan 19, 2016 16:31
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the talent deficit posted:You should think more about long term gains than short term. Yeah, this job is an extra $1k a month now but you'll still be underpaid and in a job with very little room for advancement. I have no idea what the Reno market is like but you really need to be looking at software companies and entry level to midlevel jobs. The best thing for you careerwise is to work with a bunch of other developers you can learn from and build both professional contacts and skills that you can leverage into an even better job in two years even if it means you don't see an immediate increase in compensation. Bouncing around from one crappy one man shop to another is going to put a ceiling on your career that isn't nearly as high as it could be. Last part - yeah I have no idea. It's the same way at my current job, kind of. I have to answer tech support inquiries here though, so it makes a bit of sense. However I was able to come in at like 4:00pm once because our babysitting fell through. I can also run errands throughout the day as long as I hit my hours. I appreciate that sort of flexibility. Horking Delight posted:Also if you make $29/hr now, you're gonna end up making the same amount per hour (slightly less), and just working longer hours. Those extra 500 work hours, in exchange for 13k, are the same as if you kept your current job and added 500 hours of other work at $26/hr. I still haven't calculated the debt free date. I'll do so at the end of the month. I mean in this case we're talking probably an hour a day more on any commute other than my current one, including somewhere in town. That's 52*5-7holidays hours in additional commute. Freelancing would pretty much always be better, assuming I can fill up that many hours (253). If I fill up half the hypothetical in town job commute hours (127) billing at $100/hr (which I think I could get $120, as my boss bills me for $150), then that would make that exactly even with this job for one quarter of the commute hours only. Maybe half the commute hours freelancing, half the commute hours looking for work. If I could bill for 52 weeks a year, 5 days a week, 6 hours a day, then I could pull in double gross what I'm making. So if I take that commute time that you are mentioning, 500 hours, and then work for only half that freelancing on top of my current job, I could make $85,000 this year. If I could fill up all hours then we're talking a low six figures. Basically I want to get into freelancing. I can make money on the side, quit with the job hunting, and it's something I'd like to do in the future. I like being a consultant, and one of the reasons I liked that San Diego job so much was because it was a consultant role. Dwight Eisenhower posted:Ask for all the stuff outlined by other posters already. You will probably get rejected. That's fine because this guy put up more red flags than a communist overthrow. My professional self esteem is weird. It's not hitched to my professional self confidence. I'm not an MIT grad over here, but I'm very confident that pretty much anything that needs to get done regarding software and computers, I can do it. Bah sorry guys there's a lot of good info here, but it's a lot to reply to. I'll be taking steps towards freelancing. I'm a self learner so I can keep up with the latest technologies. I read programming stuff often to keep up with best practices, and I believe I have enough talent and work ethic to get things done. I'll need to come up with a business plan, draw up a standard contract, and work my way up. I know of one consultancy firms that I work with at my day job that charges customers for things, but retains IP on the code itself. Maybe I could cut the price a little bit and come up with a nice software solution or something to create passive income along the way. Customers will benefit on IP because they could get feature updates from work I do for other customers as well. I have some ideas on how this could work while keeping it palatable to customers. I'll check out the negotiation thread though. That will always be helpful. Knyteguy fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 18:31
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To culminate the current job thing / advice given on this job so far, here's the email I sent.quote:Hi [owner], Felt good. Edit: Reply quote:No company offers profit sharing immediately because you have nothing to do with creating existing profits. I've never heard of someone negotiating sick days. Potential to take a total of 1 month off your first year is ridiculous. Yep yep dodged a bullet there. BFC Goons thank you. Knyteguy fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 18:50
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Holy poo poo ha-ha. Yeah sounds pretty awful, dodged a bullet.
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Jan 19, 2016 19:13
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Hahahaha, gently caress that guy. Potential to be off for a month, oh no! And profit-sharing can be called a bonus or whatever, but plenty of companies offer them.
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Jan 19, 2016 19:17
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Now I bet you feel silly, you weren't even able to make the long list of bad hires he's had.
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Jan 19, 2016 19:42
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No Butt Stuff posted:Hahahaha, gently caress that guy. Potential to be off for a month, oh no! Yeah I don't get it. Even I know that negotiating sick leave isn't that odd of a thing. I'm glad I got to see how he really was before it was over - arrogant. Inept posted:Now I bet you feel silly, you weren't even able to make the long list of bad hires he's had. A failure I can stand behind. I knew it was weird when he wouldn't say "hey thanks for coming" at the interview, or really just anything friendly. It's no wonder that he can't keep anyone on. You guys called it. I went ahead and posted a Glassdoor review on the interview. It's the first one, but maybe it will help others. Planning time baby! Well actually it's work time, but then planning time. Knyteguy fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 20:01
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Way to stand up for yourself. The reply told you everything you needed to know.
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Jan 20, 2016 02:00
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Way to stand up for yourself. Seriously, good for you. I'm glad you went on the interview because you got great experience identifying crazy and negotiating but holy poo poo dude is a disaster.
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Jan 20, 2016 03:13
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Good work, now post a review on Glassdoor so others will know about the red flags without having to interview first.
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Jan 20, 2016 04:21
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gently caress that dude. I do agree 15/15 vacation/sick is a lot, but it's not at all unheard of to negotiate terms. Not bringing anything to the table to make profit after a quarter? Yeah right. How does it go with the position empty? Less profit/more people working and doing worse work. My company pays a mostly predefined bonus every March, which can vary -25% to +50% based on the companies performance. You are eligible if you start before October 31st the prior year. So they figure if you're been there 4 months and haven't been fired, you're worth throwing a small amount of extra money at (it's based on your wages in the prior year).
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Jan 20, 2016 07:21
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I've worked for a guy like that in the past. He was an egomaniac narcissist that could do no wrong and consistently yelled and tiraded around the office when even the most minor thing happened. A lot of fuckups were traced directly back to him and his lack of source code controls. He eventually stopped paying everyone in the office. At the first missed paycheck, I peaced out of there. He wanted me back so I wrote him a letter saying pay me what you owe me and I'll consider it. I found out later he stamped all around the office in a fit of rage after that. I sent Texas Workforce commission after him and I got my pay. His response email to my letter was pretty close to what you got. Bullet dodged dude, life's too short to work for assholes. Turns out he didn't pay some people for like six weeks 'because they have savings'. gently caress that guy.
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Jan 20, 2016 13:36
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In places that aren't tech hubs, asking for a month of time off seems very high to me. It's fine because I think the job was a bad fit, but I feel like a lot of the posters here are giving KG some unrealistic expectations with regard to pay and benefits.
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Jan 20, 2016 17:45
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It's not a month of time off. What the gently caress guys. Sick leave is leave days you get paid for if you're sick. Does anyone actually use all or even close to all their sick leave at any given time? I sure as gently caress don't. Hell, my last company had unlimited sick leave. It's a normal thing.
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Jan 20, 2016 17:57
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n8r posted:In places that aren't tech hubs, asking for a month of time off seems very high to me. It's fine because I think the job was a bad fit, but I feel like a lot of the posters here are giving KG some unrealistic expectations with regard to pay and benefits. True, but 6 days is obscenely low, even in Reno
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Jan 20, 2016 17:57
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No Butt Stuff posted:Does anyone actually use all or even close to all their sick leave at any given time? Parents do  Not for themselves, but if the baby is too sick for daycare, someone needs to stay home. And babies get sick *a lot*.
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Jan 20, 2016 18:00
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BarbarianElephant posted:Parents do I have 4 children, two of whom are 6 months old. I know they get sick. But you burn PTO or FMLA to take care of them.
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Jan 20, 2016 18:05
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No Butt Stuff posted:I have 4 children, two of whom are 6 months old. I know they get sick. But you burn PTO or FMLA to take care of them. Yeah it's not like you're going to be traveling anywhere for prolonged trips with screaming infants.
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Jan 20, 2016 18:16
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No Butt Stuff posted:I have 4 children, two of whom are 6 months old. I know they get sick. But you burn PTO or FMLA to take care of them. But why would you use PTO or FMLA before you use your sick time? At most of my jobs, PTO/Vacation/whatever they call it gets paid out if you're laid off, but sick doesn't, so sick should be the first category of time used. If there's no distinction and it's all just PTO, I suppose it doesn't matter.
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Jan 20, 2016 18:43
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