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Caros posted:I'm a little curious, what would you change? They have a moment of despair watching the town get obliterated, it cuts to nature retaking the area as they drive through wreckage where everyone is clearly supposed to be dead and then literally go off into the sunset as the background music croons about making your way through hard times. Honestly, we've talked about the epilogue and I've brought up the changes I would have made to it. Most of them would have made the game bleaker, but if we're gonna get an epilogue for the "accept our choices, sacrifice the bay" ending I would have liked to have seen at least a few followup frames on the people whose lives we spent the game interacting with, instead of reducing the whole thing to just Chloe and Max. That reduction was fine for the climax, but a proper epilogue really needed to broaden up a bit again, and even a second for a few of the other characters in the aftermath would have been really neat. David crying over the ruins of the diner. Kate with her fingers against the window looking down in the direction of the town. The principal resting his head in his hands with student files spread out in front of him. Basically, everyone we know didn't die because they just plain weren't in town when the tornado hit. But the epilogue wasn't really the problem. It was the ten or fifteen minutes leading up to the "Choice" that were really bad, and the choice itself, and that's what made the ending bad. Like I'm not even arguing with the plot or events here so much as the execution. I honestly don't know what I would have done to fix it. I think it would have been better if everyone had just shut up and let me make my choice instead of spending multiple minutes explaining that the choice was coming up and exactly how I should think and feel about it except with really stupid arguments. Also, gently caress sitting on the bench in dreamworld progressing the scene! Finally, I wouldn't have had a binary 'choose your ending' choice. That much I can say clearly. I choose your ending choices are stupid copouts. Can you imagine if the Kate climax had offered you "Let her Fall" vs. "Save Her" as choices? That's how I felt about the final "choice". I'd much have preferred no choice at all - let me make choices in advance, be subtle, that clearly define what I would do in that situation, and when it happens... just do it! Understand and trust the player and deal with the consequences. Make me feel like this is a natural outcome of events. I have never seen a binary "nothing else matters" ending choice that was executed well - I honestly don't think it's possible. It retroactively cheapens everything that leads up to it. And this was worse than most, because it wasn't even "make one last choice about what you do" so much as literally "choose your ending". Compared to the climax, the epilogue was a masterpiece, because at least it got me to feel emotions beyond "gently caress the devs". GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 14:27
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Evfedu posted:The Jefferson twist was literally the point at which the game let you know it had no idea where it was going or what it was doing anymore. Some of ep 4 had been a bit ropey already but that was a total "honest guys we meant to set this up but just kinda forgot" that really set the tone for the complete mess of ep 5. Accordion Man fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 14:40
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Thanqol posted:The ending was perfect. I was reflecting on this post today on my commute. Mostly in what a *different* read on the ending I took away from this. Besides the usual arguments about the actual LOGISTICS AND RULES AND CONSISTENCY of the plot device(s), the internal dialogue you have to explain your final choice is interesting. While I agree that I took away a certain coming-of-age rite-of-passage from the choice(and the story as a whole), I completely disagree with the interpretation that it's about leaving familiarity for adventure. Instead, my read on the attempted question being posed is one of "Are you willing to grow up, and accept that as an adult you need to sometimes let go of selfishness and look at the bigger picture"? As a sort of transition upwards on Kohlberg's ladder. Throughout the game Max is constantly faced with and waffles about with the question of "am I going to do what I want, what's right for me, out of some sense of self-gratification?" and it tends to blow up in her face from time to time. When you're finally faced with SUPER BFF or AN ENTIRE TOWN, it's that same question writ large: are you going to choose your own selfish interests over carrying the burden yourself so that others don't have to. It's sacrificing yourself for the greater good. And that requires a moral outlook bred from maturity.
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Jan 20, 2016 15:26
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After watching the Director Commentary, I think Caros is the closest the actual thought that went into the endings. They talk a lot about Max and the player "accepting consequences" of what they've done, and to me that sounds as if even THEY think that going back to undo every major event of the game is denying that responsibility and refusing those consequences of the actions. Also they say that the whole story was written before the first episode came out, and the only changes were mostly minor things here and there in response to feedback. The biggest change was the inclusion of the Hospital scene in Episode 4, which apparently wasn't in the first cut at all. So...yeah, taking them at their word, Episode 5 happened on purpose. They also pointed out some neat little details, like two big continuity errors they made, and that the letters on Past-Max's shirt make up the phrase "no fucks given".
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Jan 20, 2016 17:05
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Plom Bar posted:Also they say that the whole story was written before the first episode came out, and the only changes were mostly minor things here and there in response to feedback. The biggest change was the inclusion of the Hospital scene in Episode 4, which apparently wasn't in the first cut at all. So...yeah, taking them at their word, Episode 5 happened on purpose.
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Jan 20, 2016 17:18
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Cuntpunch posted:The Jefferson twist was choreographed so hard because he was the odd-man-out when you are in the office with the three of them and have to place blame. David at that point in the story is being mega-creepy. Nathan at that point is entirely a villain. But then you have idol-teacher and I probably just missed *some* combination of choices, but for the life of me I couldn't figure out exactly how/why Jefferson was even there, let alone as someone to *blame* for something. It really foreshadowed that he was going to be *something* later in the story. Jefferson was there because he was literally the last person to talk to Kate before she went up to the roof.
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Jan 20, 2016 17:27
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GlyphGryph posted:Finally, I wouldn't have had a binary 'choose your ending' choice. That much I can say clearly. I choose your ending choices are stupid copouts. Can you imagine if the Kate climax had offered you "Let her Fall" vs. "Save Her" as choices? That's how I felt about the final "choice". I'd much have preferred no choice at all - let me make choices in advance, be subtle, that clearly define what I would do in that situation, and when it happens... just do it! Understand and trust the player and deal with the consequences. Make me feel like this is a natural outcome of events. I have never seen a binary "nothing else matters" ending choice that was executed well - I honestly don't think it's possible. It retroactively cheapens everything that leads up to it. And this was worse than most, because it wasn't even "make one last choice about what you do" so much as literally "choose your ending". I dunno, the final choice seems to be Max's come-to-jesus moment. She spends the whole game being childish and selfish, reversing time to avoid facing the consequences of her actions (Kate's roof scene being the only real exception). As the player, you're encouraged to use the power to play the game to your advantage, and to have that culminate in Max unavoidably making the selfish "save Chloe" ending might feel a bit forced. I will say, however, that if the dream sequence had taken the opportunity to explore Max's evolving maturity and morality, it might have made the final choice seem less arbitrary. Instead, it was just a jumble of nonsense and recycled game assets. Deutsch Nozzle fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 17:48
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Deutsch Nozzle posted:I dunno, the final choice seems to be Max's come-to-jesus moment. She spends the whole game being childish and selfish, reversing time to avoid facing the consequences of her actions (Kate's roof scene being the only real exception). As the player, you're encouraged to use the power to play the game to your advantage, and to have that culminate in Max unavoidably making the selfish "save Chloe" ending might feel a bit forced.
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Jan 20, 2016 17:54
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Deutsch Nozzle posted:As the player, you're encouraged to use the power to play the game to your advantage, and to have that culminate in Max unavoidably making the selfish "save Chloe" ending might feel a bit forced. Uh... it wouldn't been unavoidably that, and if you think that's what I was suggesting you may have misunderstood.
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Jan 20, 2016 17:55
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GlyphGryph posted:Uh... it wouldn't been unavoidably that, and if you think that's what I was suggesting you may have misunderstood. If you were shooting for a "butterfly effect" series of endings which are influenced by your previous choices, I agree that that would be preferable. I just don't think the developers had the time or resources to really implement something like that. That makes me feel like we're forced to interpret how the ending might have been better only and insofar as it pertains to that binary final choice.
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Jan 20, 2016 18:00
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Deutsch Nozzle posted:If you were shooting for a "butterfly effect" series of endings which are influenced by your previous choices, I agree that that would be preferable. I just don't think the developers had the time or resources to really implement something like that. That makes me feel like we're forced to interpret how the ending might have been better only and insofar as it pertains to that binary final choice. At the very least I would have liked to have seen previous choices come into play in some way or another - change the things Chloe says, change the things you say, maybe add some minor variations that acknowledged what lead you up to this, instead of a pair of stupid OOC narrator info dumps trying to justify nonsensical plot choices. If it's supposed to be a moment that's about emotion and internal dynamics of the characters, that is a pretty dumb way to go about it! Instead, make it so if you treated her like garbage and things went poorly for her, have her dig into you and ask if after all this time you're really going to let her die, you really haven't changed. If you treated her well, convinced her people really do care about her and it's okay to trust people, let her make the impassioned plea that even if it won't fix thing, you have to try. Instead of choosing "sacrifice bay" or "sacrifice Chloe", let us choose "use photo", "tear photo", or "put photo away". Wouldn't even give different epilogues. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 18:15
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The ending was so trite and cliché a lot of people predicted it when episode 1 came out as the worst possible ending. It's not because it's not a happy ending, it's ebcause it negates the entire game before it and makes the whole thing completely pointless.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:57
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Accordion Man posted:I'm starting to think that the quality of writing for most of the game was just a lucky fluke and that is utterly baffling to me. Eh, it's not so baffling. Endings are hard to write and stories that successfully stick the landing are far outnumbered by those that don't.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:03
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Plom Bar posted:Eh, it's not so baffling. Endings are hard to write and stories that successfully stick the landing are far outnumbered by those that don't. Yea this is what the whole discussion really boils down to. The ending was at least decent---that is to say, it was leagues better than the endings to ME3 or Bioshock. That it wasn't a work of literary genius shouldn't be an adverse comment on the writers---it only feels disappointing since the rest of the game was so compelling.
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Jan 20, 2016 20:08
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MonsieurChoc posted:The ending was so trite and cliché a lot of people predicted it when episode 1 came out as the worst possible ending. It's not because it's not a happy ending, it's ebcause it negates the entire game before it and makes the whole thing completely pointless. I wouldn't say it makes it pointless but I get what you mean. It also makes me curious about how a sequel season could even work, since they decided that in this universe using time travel is a Straight Up Bad Idea, are we gunna just rewind all of it again? Is it going to be about time travel, in this case, or some other power? Is the series gradually going to turn into inFamous?
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Jan 20, 2016 20:09
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life is strange season 2, a girl named lisa is miraculously gifted the power to teleport, but she learns a powerful lesson about never using the power she was magically gifted with for apparently no reason life is strange season 3, a boy is bitten by a radioactive spider and gains the ability to shoot webs from his hands and cling to walls, however he learns a powerful lesson that he should never fight crime
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Jan 20, 2016 20:13
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Quest For Glory II posted:life is strange season 2, a girl named lisa is miraculously gifted the power to teleport, but she learns a powerful lesson about never using the power she was magically gifted with for apparently no reason Critics adore the groundbreaking "noclip" segment at the end of episode 2
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Jan 20, 2016 20:15
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Quest For Glory II posted:life is strange season 2, a girl named lisa is miraculously gifted the power to teleport, but she learns a powerful lesson about never using the power she was magically gifted with for apparently no reason "You're a MENACE PARKER!" "Yes, yes I am  "A:[Sacrifice Gwen, B:[Sacrifice Manhattan, Threesome with Gwen and MJ aw yeaaah (Dev commentary: THIS IS THE BAD ENDING)] Remember kids, with great power, comes great... great.... hmm no no, can't think of anything here. Just don't shoot webs, okay?
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Jan 20, 2016 20:36
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I mean, if they didn't want to write a Hollywood happy ending, fine, but there were so many ways it could have gone instead that would still be better than what we got. It's not the worst ending, sure, but it is a disappointment none the less, especially after how good the rest of the game was.
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Jan 20, 2016 21:07
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Deutsch Nozzle posted:Yea this is what the whole discussion really boils down to. The ending was at least decent---that is to say, it was leagues better than the endings to ME3 or Bioshock. That it wasn't a work of literary genius shouldn't be an adverse comment on the writers---it only feels disappointing since the rest of the game was so compelling. Bioshock had the same problem in that they had a really good ending but it was halfway through the game instead of the actual the end. ME3... well, I felt it had many of the same problems LiS did but worse, yeah.
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Jan 20, 2016 21:58
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I know I'm repeating the same joke again, but this might as well be life-is-strange-reaction.avi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpYEJx7PkWE
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Jan 20, 2016 22:05
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GlyphGryph posted:ME3... well, I felt it had many of the same problems LiS did but worse, yeah. This is honestly the best comparison. It's an overly brief, sucker punch of an ending that invalidates a lot/all your previous choices. And whatever sometimes endings are bad even in otherwise good media (*cough* every Margaret Atwood novel ever *cough*), but it's just unfortunate when the ending is bad like this to the point where fans are fixated on it rather than the rest of the story. I really think even just a 2-3 minute montage set to a sentimental Indie song showing some of the effects of your choices more than just "the whole town is destroyed" or "Chloe is dead" would have made it a fine ending and added symmetry to episode 1 which ended with a montage as well.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:18
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I've compared it to Deus Ex: Human Revolution before. Remember all those decisions you made throughout the course of the game? gently caress those, here are three buttons to choose which cutscene you watch.
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Jan 20, 2016 22:39
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Its quite literally a story in which everyone would have been better off if you had never existed. I don't need to state any further why that's bad for a narrative-based game of choices. Honestly I would have preferred a Dune-Style golden path type ending. Everything is all hosed up because Time broke and Max has to stitch various elements of time back together into a coherent and hale timeline.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:21
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Hipster Occultist posted:Honestly I would have preferred a Dune-Style golden path type ending. Everything is all hosed up because Time broke and Max has to stitch various elements of time back together into a coherent and hale timeline. Ready for the sand pit, Shaka-hulud. omg would Warren be Duncan Idaho, endlessly reincarnating in the vain hope that he'll eventually score? Beefstew fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jan 22, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 23:26
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Accordion Man posted:It's the most baffling thing why so many writers don't just have a basic ending in mind, that way while its open to change at least you have an idea of where it will all end up. This makes no sense to me because episodes 1-4 are chock full of extremely apparent hints about how the game is going to end.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:27
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Turns out everyone actually lived in the Bae over Bay ending and if you killed Chloe then you're the guy from The Mist who mercy-killed his son only to find that the threat had passed and he would have been okay.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:35
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Luckily there's still time for you to find an old ultrasound picture and go back to strangle yourself in the womb.
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Jan 20, 2016 23:44
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Jefferson's VA mentioned That he didn't actually know that he was the killer until later on.
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Jan 21, 2016 00:48
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The lesson is, never try to do anything good, or the universe will be destroyed
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Jan 21, 2016 01:31
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Quest For Glory II posted:The lesson is, never try to do anything good, or the universe will be destroyed This is why they had to give us the ending they did.
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Jan 21, 2016 01:38
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The Walking Dead: A DONTNOD game "Clem!! dont you see, by continuing to live in this zombie apocalypse, we're only creating more zombies in the end!! you've got to kill yourself, it's the only way!" "you're right, for the greater good!!" *clem pulls the trigger, set to soft ukelele and melodica*
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Jan 21, 2016 01:42
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Quest For Glory II posted:The lesson is, never try to do anything good, or the universe will be destroyed
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Jan 21, 2016 01:46
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I finally did the bad ending, the butterfly taunting Max at the end was really just too much. "The End! No moral." in videogame form
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Jan 21, 2016 02:02
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Plom Bar posted:Also they say that the whole story was written before the first episode came out, and the only changes were mostly minor things here and there in response to feedback. Hahaha what obvious bullshit. I would've respected them so much more if they just owned that they kinda hosed up and lost focus on the story. BobTheJanitor posted:I know I'm repeating the same joke again, but this might as well be life-is-strange-reaction.avi: "I wish I had time travel powers!" "Really?" "Yeah, then I could go back to before episode 5 came out!" "DOOOOHOHOHO"
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Jan 21, 2016 05:27
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Huh. I honestly didn't know so many people hated Episode 5 so much. I mean, even if you didn't like the ending I thought the rest of it would have been well-liked.
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Jan 21, 2016 05:32
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Heroic Yoshimitsu posted:Huh. I honestly didn't know so many people hated Episode 5 so much. I mean, even if you didn't like the ending I thought the rest of it would have been well-liked. I think most of episode 5 is varying degrees of okay to good, if only because they are fun in isolation (for example, I don't think the nightmare is great writing, but it's really fun so I like it.) That is also the second largest problem with episode 5 (following the ending, of course.)
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Jan 21, 2016 05:35
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Heroic Yoshimitsu posted:Huh. I honestly didn't know so many people hated Episode 5 so much. I mean, even if you didn't like the ending I thought the rest of it would have been well-liked. The beginning involved a bunch of hamfisted dialogue that could have done with a lot more subtlety. I mean, it was okay, but it could have been a lot better. The going back inside of going back bits were pretty cool and were by far my favorite part of the episode, made things feel really intense and like things were getting progressively more out of control, and then the false end at the show was great. Then it really went down hill. The rescue was alright, but also a bit... annoying? Jefferson's super competent super evil abilities continue to strain disbelief, but fine. Going into town and saving people was incredibly confusing and was where I began to realize that I had no idea why I was doing the things I was doing anymore, or why these people decided to go to town upon seeing the hurricane. Wasn't I going to town explicitly to wipe these people out in favour of a better timeline? Why do I care about these people? If I do care, why the hell am I letting them just wander around town after I save them when I know some place safe they could at least try to go to!? Then Warren seems to become a mouthpiece for a particularly dumb writer, spewing a bunch of dumb stuff I can't even call out as dumb as if a brief summary has given him perfect knowledge of the entire situation. Actually, was this before or after the dream sequence? I don't even remember. The Dream sequence! Aaaah! What the hell was the point of all of this? I mean, there were some cool bits in it that I enjoyed, lots of great little touches like pulling out your journal and the stuff in the lockers, don't get me wrong, but some of it was so damned stupid. A walkthrough slideshow straight from epcot? A dumb stealth minigame in a section that makes fun of how poo poo their lastbottle hunting minigame was, with the ability to play the poo poo minigame again? Maybe everything that happened in this section was deep and symbolic and meaningful if only I dug for it, but most of it hit me as so stupid I doubt there is. Then I get in a fight with myself which was okay, and then it ends and... what? Oh now there is an important choice to make! Either way, the game assures me, nothing I've done up until this point matters any more, only this one choice. And the choice is... pick your ending! Yes, in a game about tough decisions, the outcomes here are explicitly laid out for us and fixed, as if to say "there's no need to think about this or involve yourself in this choice too deeply, just pick the one you want with absolute certainty!" Uggggh. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Jan 21, 2016 |
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Jan 21, 2016 05:45
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I like the whole game. My only issue with 5 is how short the save Chloe ending is. It's fine if everyone died but at least show it. Lots of wasted potential to show stuff like Chloe and Max going across a destroyed diner, a dead Warren, anything really. The wreckage in the town was bad but not so bad that you wouldn't expect survivors. The other ending has so much emotional crap going on that is pretty much missing it.
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Jan 21, 2016 05:50
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I had a lot of bad things to say about Episode 5 when it came out, and to be fair most of it still applies, but I've mellowed out a bit, I think. Having Jefferson go full-on Melodramatic "Before I kill you, let me explain my plan and motives in detail" Supervillain was more than a little silly, and I think it was a missed opportunity that he wasn't still playing at the Cool Teacher archetype, which in my opinion would have made him even MORE menacing. Warren expo-dumping the bit about Chaos Theory was a textbook example of contrived writing. Lampshading the tedium of doing the bottle puzzle again didn't make it okay. Leaving aside the actual endings, there's no logical reason for Max to believe that letting Chloe die will stop the storm, and even LESS reason for Chloe to think of and suggest it. All that said, I really liked the art gallery sequence, the endless dorm maze reminded me a lot of P.T. (a good thing), and getting the payoff of Max and Chloe smooching, even if it only happens in the bad ending, was commendable. It averages out worse than the rest, but it's not wholly terrible.
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Jan 21, 2016 05:51
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