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Command Ant posted:She mentions in an earlier episode that she can be replaced, which was a pretty strong hint, too. I think that's more to do with her low self-worth
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Jan 21, 2016 12:12
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Sakurazuka posted:Was there ever any explanation on how the directors cut versions came to be? Japanese animation production tends to be a very lean process and for them to animate scenes that didn't actually get used in the final version is very rare. The only other instance I can think of was the first episode of Escaflowne. Eva's production went completely off the rails around this point, a mixture of money and time running out with the added shitstorm the violence and that one sex scene caused. The fallout of this is basically why broadcast anime is so heavily censored to this day. Also relating to 21... I also originally thought Misato had killed Kaji, at the time I figured it was implied that she was being released on the proviso that she offs him to prove her loyalty and such, of course this later turned out to be refuted by Anno and they even added a scene to dispel it. In retrospect it really doesn't fit her character to have done it anyway.
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Jan 21, 2016 12:16
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.jpg posted:I think that's more to do with her low self-worth These two things are very closely related I would say. 
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Jan 21, 2016 12:28
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I'm not sure if she's aware of her origin at this point, is she?
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Jan 21, 2016 12:36
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Yeah, she totally is. The important parts anyway. Listen to Sakurazuka and check out the recap episode, it's incredibly not-subtle in hindsight. I also don't think she has issues with low self-worth, since that would require she has defined a self that she can assign value to. I don't think that has happened yet, but she's getting there. tldr poor girl has an identity crisis the size of a moon. 
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Jan 21, 2016 12:49
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Yes_Cantaloupe posted:Man, everyone in this show is so incredibly hosed up. Oh yes indeed, every single one. The focus was on Shinji and his woes in the beginning, but the curtain is pulled slowly back on how everything up to the setting is angry, sad, and confused by events they can't control. And no one reaches out to or comforts anybody, which annoyed my dad to no end*; "Why isn't anyone helping each other here? You got teenagers all over one bad day away from shooting themselves in the head, and nobody's doing crap!" Once he turned to me(I think after Ep. 22, actually) and say, "Are you really enjoying this?" And, well, "enjoy" is I think the wrong word for the things we've seen of late (unless you think things like Misato's reaction to Kaji being shot or Asuka getting psychically assaulted by an Angel are particular knee-slappers, in which case,  ) but even back then when I was about 14-15, I was fascinated by what I was seeing, about all these lost souls fall into loneliness and depression and generally try and fail to help each other, whilst trying to save the world from weird, incomprehensible beings and only just succeeding every time. It's engaging, terrific stuff.*He was a social worker who worked with the homeless, generally runaway teens, and parental/adult neglect and allowance of adolescents to fall into self destructive mental patterns was pretty much his unforgivable sin. So no, he did not enjoy Eva and complained constantly about Shinji's whininess, Asuka's freak-outs, Misato's alcoholism (he was a recovering alcoholic himself), and everyone's general unpleasantness; I found it annoying at the time, but can recognize now that it was mostly out of a desire to sit Shinji down and engage with him** than to trash my interests or whatever. ** And the closest thing to that ever actually happen happened a few episodes ago with Kaji, when they bonded quite civilly over watermelons while the Angel attacked. It's one of the only positive adult-child interactions that happen in the entire show; Kaji very explicitly does not pressure Shinji any which way and allows him to make his own decision without judgment. Contrary to his introduction as a horndog old flame of Misato's (and some of his come-ons are REEEALLY aggressive to the point of discomfort sometimes) he was very chill with the kids; he helped and was friendly to Shinji, and I believe his "dates" with Asuka were an attempt to reach out to her too, to use a feeling of normalcy to get her to calm the hell down and appreciate her accomplishments (even though that was clearly the wrong tack to take...) He was one of the most mentally secure, helpful people on the show- so naturally, he had to go!
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Jan 21, 2016 15:12
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Sakurazuka posted:Was there ever any explanation on how the directors cut versions came to be? Japanese animation production tends to be a very lean process and for them to animate scenes that didn't actually get used in the final version is very rare. The only other instance I can think of was the first episode of Escaflowne. The "Director's Cut" description is a bit misleading. As far as I know, the added scenes weren't ever part of the original production. They were added later for Death and the video releases, to help set things up better for EoE.
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Jan 21, 2016 15:26
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Yeah, I get that now, I was coming at from them from the live action side where special editions are usually stuff that was filmed but never used rather than original stuff added later like the DC's.
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Jan 21, 2016 15:51
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resurgam40 posted:Oh yes indeed, every single one. The focus was on Shinji and his woes in the beginning, but the curtain is pulled slowly back on how everything up to the setting is angry, sad, and confused by events they can't control. And no one reaches out to or comforts anybody, which annoyed my dad to no end*; "Why isn't anyone helping each other here? You got teenagers all over one bad day away from shooting themselves in the head, and nobody's doing crap!" Once he turned to me(I think after Ep. 22, actually) and say, "Are you really enjoying this?" thanks, this is a fairly interesting perspective. i enjoy it the same way as i enjoy movies by dreyer, bresson, greenaway, bergman, von trier, etc. but i guess the major difference is that it presents itself as entertainment rather than ascetic art film. maybe enjoy is the wrong word but watching things where the characters are so consistently put upon can be validating in its own way, to know that no matter how bad things get there will always be fictional characters suffering more. the show has so much going on but one of my favorite themes is failure to communicate (especially among familial groups (so it makes sense that wes anderson is a huge evangelion fan as that theme is pretty much the cornerstone of his work)) and of course all of this ties in to the message the whole show is trying to convey and the critique of otaku culture it develops i.e. that even though subjective existence is pure hell the answer is not to sever yourself from reality
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Jan 21, 2016 16:08
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resurgam40 posted:Oh yes indeed, every single one. The focus was on Shinji and his woes in the beginning, but the curtain is pulled slowly back on how everything up to the setting is angry, sad, and confused by events they can't control. And no one reaches out to or comforts anybody, which annoyed my dad to no end*; "Why isn't anyone helping each other here? You got teenagers all over one bad day away from shooting themselves in the head, and nobody's doing crap!" Wow, high standards much? Does he really think a small paramilitary organization can afford to keep some social workers on staff? Seriously, it's not like Nerv's budg-  ...ok then. Hey at least you got the second best dad story award out of it.
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Jan 21, 2016 16:18
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l33tc4k30fd00m posted:Eva's production went completely off the rails around this point, a mixture of money and time running out with the added shitstorm the violence and that one sex scene caused. The fallout of this is basically why broadcast anime is so heavily censored to this day. What censorship? When you say 'broadcast', isn't all sorts of shlocky blood & boobs anime broadcast? or was eva shown at an hour reasonable human beings are awake like (iirc) utena was. either way utena has a sex scene about as non-graphic as the eva one and that happened after this show. I guess it's a little more obfuscated though, especially compared to the movie.
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Jan 21, 2016 18:40
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.jpg posted:I'm not sure if she's aware of her origin at this point, is she? Maybe not consciously, but there are a couple of scenes where Rei dreams or hallucinates about an "other Rei" which are suggestive, plus Rei III has Rei II's memories but at best struggles to find any emotional attachment to them, and at worst has none at all; it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to extend this to Rei II and Rei I.
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Jan 21, 2016 19:00
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Jostiband posted:Yeah, she totally is. The important parts anyway. Yeah the imagery is not subtle at all for the viewer who knows what happens, but from Rei's perspective I thought that sequence was her questioning who she is because subconsciously she knows something is weird. I don't think it's obvious if she is consciously aware of stuff or not
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Jan 21, 2016 19:10
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She does spend a decent amount of time floating in a tube right next to the creepy Rei tank so I dunno she's probably noticed something
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Jan 21, 2016 20:08
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darealkooky posted:What censorship? Eva was shown fairly early in the evening on TV Tokyo so yeah not the usual otaku slot, at least on its initial run. I know it got shown in a late timeslot later on and that's apparently where the show really took off. There are a lot of scenes that would probably get the light ray treatment these days.
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Jan 21, 2016 20:17
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.jpg posted:Yeah the imagery is not subtle at all for the viewer who knows what happens, but from Rei's perspective I thought that sequence was her questioning who she is because subconsciously she knows something is weird. I don't think it's obvious if she is consciously aware of stuff or not Ah, I see. In that case I'll bat for team consciously, but garbled. I believe she has all the relevant information, but no idea how to process it, and what any of it is supposed to mean as far as her own personhood is concerned. This would be a lot easier if she had a decent upbringing or stable rolemodels, but err...yeah. Gonna dump a few more pics since I don't really know what to do with them.  
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Jan 21, 2016 20:35
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resurgam40 posted:And, well, "enjoy" is I think the wrong word for the things we've seen of late Radio Spiricom posted:maybe enjoy is the wrong word i think it's the right word. it's weird to me when people use it strictly for art that makes them feel good. seeing characters suffer is not pleasant, but something that handles their emotions in as raw and vivid a way as evangelion is enthralling (on top of how formally incredible the show is and a million other captivating things) Radio Spiricom posted:watching things where the characters are so consistently put upon can be validating in its own way, to know that no matter how bad things get there will always be fictional characters suffering more. yknow, this has totally never been it for me. things like evangelion make me feel worse, not better, but the catharsis and recognition is where the enjoyment comes from. although the idea of a relationship with a show that's like Bernhard style emotional transference is interesting lol resurgam40 posted:all these lost souls fall into loneliness and depression and generally try and fail to help each other Radio Spiricom posted:failure to communicate (especially among familial groups yah. one of the main themes of the show for me is how suffering is inadvertently passed on from generation to generation and person to person. characters in eva do make attempts to help each other but fail because their subjective experiences don't match up (how many times does misato blow up at shinji or scold him about his behavior only to later realize she made things worse because she didn't understand his motivation) i think it's really difficult to watch this show and not come out of it at least a little more aware of how you unthinkingly treat other people
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Jan 21, 2016 20:36
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Anno's Anomie Anime
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Jan 21, 2016 20:36
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Darley-Wilkinson posted:Anno's Anomie Anime lol nice 
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Jan 21, 2016 20:40
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I've kind of lost track, but who (if any) in this simulwatch are doing so having not seen the show before? I'd definitely be curious about impressions when all is said and done.
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Jan 21, 2016 20:56
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i think another underrated aspect of the show is all the alternate titles during the eyecatches   last one under tags just in case
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Jan 21, 2016 20:59
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Nate RFB posted:I've kind of lost track, but who (if any) in this simulwatch are doing so having not seen the show before? I'd definitely be curious about impressions when all is said and done. Agronox and Quark, I think. Think Cake Attack too, but he may have stopped posting  Does pootybutt's husband count?
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Jan 21, 2016 21:04
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Radio Spiricom posted:greenaway man yknow, he and anno are very different filmmakers, but they both vibe with me in a similar way. the disconnect between the gorgeous action spectacle in eva and the harrowing emotional stuff that's often happening simultaneously is poignant to me and produces a similar tension to, like, the juxtaposition between the self-consciously artificial visuals in something like The Cook The Thief His Wife & Her Lover and how brutal it is. they both also love deep reds
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Jan 21, 2016 21:11
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yeah i don't really mean to bring a comparison between the two in strict terms into this more that they're directors concerned with the depths of human suffering. plus the contrasts (equivalencies?) made between sex and death. greenaway is significantly more playful to me. in some of the hiroki azuma stuff i posted a few pages back, anno cites kihachi okamoto (sword of doom, kill) as a film director who influenced him but he [azuma] sees a lot of godard in eva too, especially in the pace of montage the show develops as it reaches the conclusion so it's probably godard by way of okamoto -- nouvelle vague filtered through nuberu bagu, and really godard is the connecting thread between all of these directors we're namedropping. cf quote:To put it boldly, from episode 17 until episode 24 (but especially in episode 18, 19, 22, and 23) at the moment when that condensed unfolding reaches its highest point, he several times makes me think of Godard. That is not an explanation related to the quality of cinema itself. That doesn't mean that Anno tried to cite or parody Godard. Anybody can borrow stereotypical "Godard-like" images. (Of course Anno himself does it. For instance using lots of intertitles) The problem is more abstract than that. When I asked novelist Abe Kazushige he explained that the problem is a kind of "density" which Anno's mise-en-scene and editing possessed during that period. The feeling of anxiety that is brought about necessarily owing to that level of condensation, certainly turns him toward the direction of Godard. The rules of the narrative genre of anime are rapidly spun and twisted to the point of their collapse and whether this is done consciously or not Anno temporarily achieved a miraculous success. What I would like to call "Godard-like" is that he barely balances all of these things. Therefore that tension provides the sensation of the narrative of the last half of Evangelion. The repetitive twist as the collapse of the narrative giving birth to another sensation of the narrative; isn't that totally Godard-like? Radio Spiricom fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Jan 21, 2016 |
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Jan 21, 2016 21:26
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I totally see the Godard comparison, both early Godard that plays with genre and metafiction (Breathless, A Band Apart, Alphaville etc.), and the later more essayist Godard as well.
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Jan 21, 2016 21:30
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Oh man, I just noticed we're powering through the whole rest of this and the movie starting Friday.
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Jan 21, 2016 23:44
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Nate RFB posted:I've kind of lost track, but who (if any) in this simulwatch are doing so having not seen the show before? I'd definitely be curious about impressions when all is said and done. As Jostiband said, I'm one of them, although I lagged behind early, caught up, and finally finished everything last weekend. I look forward to seeing what others write as well. I will say right now that I prefer the more "angel of the week" type episodes to the current crop of introspective ones.
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Jan 22, 2016 00:37
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I think the monster of the week episodes are vital to the series if only to serve as a point of comparison as everything goes off the rails towards the end.
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Jan 22, 2016 10:20
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A lot of the later stuff is also introduced early on as subtext. Like you can connect a lot of what happens in the 2nd half to "I must not run away," "You could try smiling," etc., it's just it really explodes into the text starting around 14-16, culminating in EoE. Even if the show had ended after the first or second arc, it would still be great, but it's incredible how it follows through on the ruminations. Like Gendo saying "Mankind has no time left" early on isn't just typical apocalyptic flavor. The horror of a world ending and the psychological torment end up as more than plot - they become like the complete language of the show. At the same time it never loses it's fundamental relation to the internal drama of a single 14 year old. That's why to me both the TV and EoE 26 make so much sense as endings Mia Wasikowska fucked around with this message at 12:18 on Jan 22, 2016 |
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Jan 22, 2016 11:20
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A Doomed Purloiner posted:I think the monster of the week episodes are vital to the series if only to serve as a point of comparison as everything goes off the rails towards the end. Not to mention that motw is the style of stuff that Anno particularly loves. Dude is a big Ultraman fan.
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Jan 22, 2016 11:38
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Misato......
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Jan 22, 2016 16:17
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Christ it's easy to forget how much of a mess literally everything and everyone is by this point, even Pen Pen is lethargic.
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Jan 22, 2016 16:35
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Hah, I forgot about the 23 next episode preview, its no wonder people still think the last episodes are the way they are because GAINAX ran out of time/money.
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Jan 22, 2016 16:41
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Man, that's uh, the first time I realised exactly what Asuka was about to do in that bathtub 
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Jan 22, 2016 16:52
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The preview was changed in the DC iirc
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Jan 22, 2016 16:56
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Sakurazuka posted:Man, that's uh, the first time I realised exactly what Asuka was about to do in that bathtub 
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Jan 22, 2016 16:57
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lets hang out posted:The preview was changed in the DC iirc I just realised that when the episode 24 one was a pre-production drawing preview of EoE 
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Jan 22, 2016 17:17
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After watching 23 I've changed my mind about Rei's awareness since Rei III outright states she's probably the third
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Jan 23, 2016 00:52
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Aww yeah! It's Eva o clock! Time to make some coffee.
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Jan 23, 2016 01:56
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Jan 23, 2016 01:58
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