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No society anywhere in the world has ever subsisted on private charity. Instead, various forms of wealth rearrangement that exist on a formal level emerge, whether we are talking about villages or city-states. It's a ridiculous proposition from a historical point of view.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:53
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Literally The Worst posted:Serious question have you read any of Caros' many posts going line by line through jrodes word salad and arguing with it only to be ignored I'm an adult. I am a veteran. I am a college graduate. If I am younger than you, I would be surprised. What you take as haughtiness was respect. What you take as insult, is an honest attempt to engage. Endeavor to be better. "Serious question" No. I haven't. I can understand how that would make Caros mad at Jrod. Not how you would continue to be a dipshit to me, no matter what I say. Your next reply is going to be more rear end in a top hat bullshit about me needing to read more, rather than just stop being an rear end in a top hat and move the gently caress on I'm not Jrod. Ban him if he's so bad.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:54
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Promontorium posted:I'm an adult. I am a veteran. I am a college graduate. If I am younger than you, I would be surprised. He has been banned. Multiple times. He confuses to come back and not change his behavior. Also lmao at "I'm clearly older than you and this know better" like that is an argument proffered by an adult and not a piss baby with a wet nappie
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Jan 24, 2016 02:55
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Also "what you take as haughtiness was respect" My rear end Don't piss in my cereal and tell me it's lemonade
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Jan 24, 2016 02:56
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Promontorium posted:I do not agree. But you have written nothing here for me to defend or discuss, just insults. Well you expect the government to act instantly in unprecedented ecological disasters during economic death spirals, and used this situation which private charity failed to address as evidence that private charity is sufficient to address issues. Either that or saying that letting many die during disasters is perfectly okay if the contrary is having a government. It's patently ridiculous. If I understand this rambling non-responsive bullshit correctly, that is.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:56
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Promontorium posted:Ban him if he's so bad. You see that button that says rap sheet on everyone's posts? Go click on it on one of jrod's.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:57
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Promontorium posted:I honestly did not intend to talk down to you. You just happen to be so low that even while I'm on the ground, you're looking up. There. Now I have insulted you too. Are you done being a dumbfuck? Or is this literally all you're capable of? Did you look down, and whisper "no"?
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Jan 24, 2016 02:57
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Promontorium posted:OK then I'll modify it to be Hawaii pre colonization. Nobody would die. They would absolutely die. Maybe not right away, but without proper skills all of them would die in less than a year, mostly by making GBS threads their guts out or just plain starvation and dehydration. I don't know what kind of Disney movie view of reality you have, but life out in the wilderness isn't easy. There's a reason we've devoted so much of our existence to getting out of it. quote:Doesn't change my argument. On that, at least, we agree. (It's because your argument was bad and remains bad). quote:The point was even in an extreme situation survival is possible. In reality, even in the fall of a nation and the complete abandonment of a currency, people still work and get things done. Look at the middle east and Africa. It's far more extreme and still people are working and getting things done. Is there a tipping point? Certainly. But it's not the moment the government stops printing money. That's my only point. Charity exists, and helps. Sure, charity exists and helps, I suppose, when there is a stable, prosperous, peaceful source for the charity to come from. Do you know the absolute best way to set up the ideal conditions for effective charities to exist? Can you guess? I believe in you!
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Jan 24, 2016 02:57
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Promontorium posted:Ban him if he's so bad. How many loving times have I told you that he was, you colossal loving dipshit?
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Jan 24, 2016 02:59
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Promontorium posted:Now I've at least gathered he's an anarchist, so he's not my brand of libertarian. I'm for states. Of all your posts so far in this thread, this is the only intellectually interesting thing you've put forward, and it's something I'd be happy to see you drop your other toy-throwing exercises to focus on. Promontorium posted:I live in California. The most taxed and regulated state in America. That's not Massachusetts. Promontorium posted:You just happen to be so low that even while I'm on the ground, you're looking up. Congratulations, you're so low you'd have to parachute out of a snake's arsehole to reach the ground safely. Jesus man at least try and burst into a thread with a sense of dignity instead of sliding in pissing wildly onto the patrons.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:59
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Or click on Literally The Worst's rap sheet and gaze upon its majesty.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:59
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Effectronica posted:No society anywhere in the world has ever subsisted on private charity. Instead, various forms of wealth rearrangement that exist on a formal level emerge, whether we are talking about villages or city-states. It's a ridiculous proposition from a historical point of view. Libertarianism isn't a historical state of man. Karl Marx argued for Communism as a new state that had never existed like many political theorists he laid out the various stages of human devleopment.. That doesn't stop people from speculating. Many political theories project into the future an ideal arrangement from Plato to Nietzsche. If Libertarianism had been tried, if it were historical, then it wouldn't be so frustratingly theoretical. The majority of our history is tribalism. The majority of our history is cast aside as "the best we could do". We moved on to various oligarchical systems, and then the world grew more democratic. I wholly admit I can't define how well, or if at all, such a society would work. But I would like to see it tried.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:59
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paragon1 posted:Or click on Literally The Worst's rap sheet and gaze upon its majesty. Oi my rap sheet is glorious and wonderful and I deserved most of it
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Jan 24, 2016 03:00
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Promontorium posted:Libertarianism isn't a historical state of man. Karl Marx argued for Communism as a new state that had never existed like many political theorists he laid out the various stages of human devleopment.. That doesn't stop people from speculating. Many political theories project into the future an ideal arrangement from Plato to Nietzsche. If Libertarianism had been tried, if it were historical, then it wouldn't be so frustratingly theoretical. Well, then, buddy, don't use historical arguments. By the way: Effectronica posted:Yo! You want intellectual discourse without any insults? Fine. I'll offer to go three rounds with you, in a semi-formal written debate. Proposition, response, counter-response. Quick and easy. You up for it? You up for this?
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Jan 24, 2016 03:00
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Promontorium posted:Karl Marx argued for Communism as a new state that had never existed Interesting, where did he argue for that? Book and chapter, kindly.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:01
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Literally The Worst posted:Oi my rap sheet is glorious and wonderful and I deserved most of it That's what I was saying don't make me get the spray bottle dickeye.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:02
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Tesseraction posted:Of all your posts so far in this thread, this is the only intellectually interesting thing you've put forward, and it's something I'd be happy to see you drop your other toy-throwing exercises to focus on. OK. I've made a series of serious posts. People keep replying with lovely comments insulting me. Show me a serious post I haven't given due respect or join your choir of dipshits insulting me for having a contrary opinion while hypocritically demanding I play ball.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:02
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paragon1 posted:That's what I was saying don't make me get the spray bottle dickeye. I'll fukkin cut u
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Jan 24, 2016 03:02
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Promontorium posted:OK. I've made a series of serious posts. People keep replying with lovely comments insulting me. Show me a serious post I haven't given due respect or join your choir of dipshits insulting me for having a contrary opinion while hypocritically demanding I play ball. That's not what I insulted you for actually, I Insulted you for trying to shame us like children with our hands in the cookie jar and then getting pissy when people told you to gently caress off Don't misconstrue my hatred, shitlord
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Jan 24, 2016 03:03
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Promontorium posted:OK. I've made a series of serious posts. People keep replying with lovely comments insulting me. Show me a serious post I haven't given due respect or join your choir of dipshits insulting me for having a contrary opinion while hypocritically demanding I play ball. Effectronica's offer to do a semi-formal debate. And are you going to acknowledge that Jrod has been banned three times, yet?
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Jan 24, 2016 03:04
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Promontorium posted:OK. I've made a series of serious posts. People keep replying with lovely comments insulting me. Show me a serious post I haven't given due respect or join your choir of dipshits insulting me for having a contrary opinion while hypocritically demanding I play ball. You know you are on something awful right? Insults are going to part of the discourse, especially in debate and discussion. Adapt and move on. If you find you just can't enjoy posting in that sort of environment, then maybe this isn't the forum for you? You could peruse one of the other subforums where you are far less likely to get called a motherfucker as a form of greeting. Or maybe Something Awful just isn't for you. You did at least read some threads before shelling out  right?
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Jan 24, 2016 03:06
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Literally The Worst posted:I'll fukkin cut u i'll cut u first bitch
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Jan 24, 2016 03:06
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I wish that libertarians could be made to understand how brutal primitive life was, how utterly correct Hobbes was. Now don't mistake me, modern life can manifest utter and colossal brutality, but at least I get to eat a sandwich. A sandwich, man. Then I put cheese on it. Do you have any idea, the pure concentration of agriculture and husbandry, the logistical wonders of transport and refrigeration? I bought it at a gas station. You have a spear without even a stone point on it, you broke a branch off of a tree to try and hunt a tapir. You think he didn't hear you coming?
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Jan 24, 2016 03:07
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paragon1 posted:You know you are on something awful right? Insults are going to part of the discourse, especially in debate and discussion. Adapt and move on. If you find you just can't enjoy posting in that sort of environment, then maybe this isn't the forum for you? You could peruse one of the other subforums where you are far less likely to get called a motherfucker as a form of greeting. Or maybe Something Awful just isn't for you. Woah dude, he's a super smart college graduate and super-badass veteran. And probably also super handsome and cool, he doesn't need to read threads, he's too smart for that!
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Jan 24, 2016 03:09
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Promontorium posted:OK. I've made a series of serious posts. People keep replying with lovely comments insulting me. Show me a serious post I haven't given due respect or join your choir of dipshits insulting me for having a contrary opinion while hypocritically demanding I play ball. WOah I think I can hear the bowtie.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:09
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Promontorium posted:OK. I've made a series of serious posts. People keep replying with lovely comments insulting me. Show me a serious post I haven't given due respect or join your choir of dipshits insulting me for having a contrary opinion while hypocritically demanding I play ball. I won't deny you've made a few serious posts. The problem is that when you also make shitposts and arsey replies people are perfectly justified to assume you're a turd goblin not worth responding to. jrodefeld initially got 100% serious and non-insulting replies until he kept routinely showing he was arguing in bad faith. You're allowed to be dismissive of posters showing you no respect, but do you know what helps you dismiss such posts? Not quoting and replying to them with pointless insults. If you want to engage in a sensible discussion on libertarian principles, fine. If you want to just trade insults in a a slanging match, also fine. But don't try and do both as people will find calling you a poop sniffer much easier than considering you intelligent enough to debate.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:11
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Tesseraction posted:Interesting, where did he argue for that? Book and chapter, kindly. Virtually everything he wrote vaguely addresses it. And going straight from petty insults of me to demanding specific chapter as if you'd deal honestly with me rings false. But I can give you some examples and you can troll on if you want. In "For a Ruthless Criticism of Everything Existing" Karl Marx declares that it necessary to obtain a "political truth" "turn your thoughts from backward glances at the past toward a new undertaking....What is necessary will arrange itself. "I do not doubt, therefore, that all obstacles - whose importance I do not fail to recognize - will be removed." He goes on listing various ideologies and criticizes them for their failings. He calls it a "critical philosophy" reaching the truth by tearing down the ideas he found to be false. He devotes even more time to religion. Going into particular detail in "On the Jewish Question". In "On the Jewish Question" he argues even if one were to obtain the political ideology he is promoting, if religion continues it would still taint the society. In many essays what Marx is doing it building up to the argument for Communism by pointing out the flaws of established systems. Communism did not exist before. It is global statelessness. At least you can agree on that without me citing sources? If this isn't enough I can post more. But I doubt you want an actual discussion since every post you make insults me and makes no argument of your own.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:15
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Tesseraction posted:calling you a poop sniffer much easier than considering you intelligent enough to debate.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:20
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I wouldn't call communism stateless, actually. Though I don't think I'd want to live in most of the states still calling themselves communist.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:20
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Promontorium posted:Virtually everything he wrote vaguely addresses it. And going straight from petty insults of me to demanding specific chapter as if you'd deal honestly with me rings false. But I can give you some examples and you can troll on if you want. Oh I do want an actual discussion, but I have all his major works (plus Engels' works and co-works), and I've not seen evidence of your claims in it. I threw insults at you because you threw insults around, I will happily drop the rudeness and engage you properly, all I ask is you stop being haughty and I will stop being dickish. Going back to your quotes, they do not prove what you claimed, namely that 'Karl Marx argued for Communism as a new state that had never existed' - where does he argue this? If he did, you could surely give more than vague quotes about 'political truth' or obstacles being removed.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:21
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Who What Now posted:They would absolutely die. Maybe not right away, but without proper skills all of them would die in less than a year, mostly by making GBS threads their guts out or just plain starvation and dehydration. I don't know what kind of Disney movie view of reality you have, but life out in the wilderness isn't easy. There's a reason we've devoted so much of our existence to getting out of it. Promontorium posted:OK then I'll modify it to be Hawaii pre colonization. Nobody would die. Doesn't change my argument. The point was even in an extreme situation survival is possible. In reality, even in the fall of a nation and the complete abandonment of a currency, people still work and get things done. Look at the middle east and Africa. It's far more extreme and still people are working and getting things done. Is there a tipping point? Certainly. But it's not the moment the government stops printing money. That's my only point. Charity exists, and helps.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:22
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Promontorium posted:There's the rub. I'm simultaneously being insulted for acting too intelligent, while being called a retard. To those who just talk poo poo, I'm just talking poo poo. You have put yourself on your own pedestal. You keep framing sentences as if I have to match you. But you've provided nothing, and you insult me with the rest of them. I don't find you interesting at all, because all you're doing is talking poo poo. But, I do thank you for giving me permission to be better. Heh, you're welcome. More seriously I appreciate your conundrum, but would say that one is more likely to respect an opponent who doesn't degrade themselves to petty insults over the slightest indignity. The irony of me saying that isn't lost on me, but frankly I had you categorised as someone likely to slide in, insult people, then fly off in a rage, but it seems you are a someone not quite so flighty, hence my change of tact.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:24
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Promontorium posted:There's the rub. I'm simultaneously being insulted for acting too intelligent, while being called a retard. To those who just talk poo poo, I'm just talking poo poo. You have put yourself on your own pedestal. You keep framing sentences as if I have to match you. But you've provided nothing, and you insult me with the rest of them. I don't find you interesting at all, because all you're doing is talking poo poo. But, I do thank you for giving me permission to be better. Do you acknowledge Jrod has been banned before, yet? You mentioned it like six times. Are you physically capable of admitting you were wrong about something? Because jrod wasnt, and you're acting an awwwwwfully lot like him...
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Jan 24, 2016 03:26
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Promontorium posted:Libertarianism isn't a historical state of man. This is because it's self-evidently worse for everyone then any other system of living, fyi.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:28
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Yo Promontorium, if you seriously want to seriously argue about libertarianism, I am more than game, but you have to drop this insufferable "gosh, you plebeians are misbehaving!" shtick. It's completely awful and makes it impossible for me to take you seriously.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:31
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Tesseraction posted:Oh I do want an actual discussion, but I have all his major works (plus Engels' works and co-works), and I've not seen evidence of your claims in it. I threw insults at you because you threw insults around, I will happily drop the rudeness and engage you properly, all I ask is you stop being haughty and I will stop being dickish. I have many of his works. Thanks to a Marxist professor of mine at Cal. Who saw Marx in every subject. I don't know what more you want. I think my quote is rather innocuous. 'Karl Marx argued for Communism as a new state that had never existed' - Did Marx argue for Communism or not? If yes then I can move past this. If not, read Communist Manifesto. Has Communism ever existed before Marx? If no, then I can move past this too. If so then I'm genuinely at a loss. Did Marx argue for the rationality of Communism as a new kind of governance? If so, then I'm done. If not, then re-read what I wrote. The part about looking forward. Check out the paper yourself since you have it, notice how many times he says "new". For example "we do not attempt dogmatically to prefigure the future, but want to find the new world only through criticism of the old." Unless you think he's speaking literally, then metaphorically, the new world is the new philosophy. What are you missing here? I was just pointing out Communism was a new idea that hasn't been established in history. What exactly are you missing?
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Jan 24, 2016 03:31
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GunnerJ posted:Yo Promontorium, if you seriously want to seriously argue about libertarianism, I am more than game, but you have to drop this insufferable "gosh, you plebeians are misbehaving!" shtick. It's completely awful and makes it impossible for me to take you seriously. That's fine. Stop telling me to gently caress off then.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:32
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Promontorium posted:I'm simultaneously being insulted for acting too intelligent You aren't being insulted for this hth.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:32
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Yeah, if you honestly want to have an honest discussion then you need to start by telling us exactly what you believe and why you think it is superior to other forms of political thought. You said Jrod did an awful job of presenting a good case for libertarianism, so here's your chance to do better.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:33
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Promontorium posted:That's fine. Stop telling me to gently caress off then. People started telling you to gently caress off in response to that sort of thing dude.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:34
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