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Mortanis posted:I've never met any magic words folks, but there's a number of people that believe "we're born free, man, and it's bullshit that I'm subject to all this stuff I didn't opt into". The problem is that these people don't recognize what life would be like WITHOUT a government - they assume the world they were born into is the default state, and so they don't recognize how much of the good stuff in their life is the result of having a government. In reality, if you had the option of "government or not", with an understanding of all that entails, you'd choose government every single time. Even authoritarian regimes are better than lawless societies.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:44
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As a Millennial I posted:What makes you think they're millionaires? Can't find a regular source for his worth, but it's said often enough. The guy has a ton of cattle, a large ranch, and raised 14 kids. He's not poor at any rate. His land alone is probably worth plenty.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:44
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If anyone wants to read some real time SovCit insanity as they grapple with how thoroughly the FBI just owned them then I suggest the comments section in this Prison Planet article. It is just chock full of SovCit's gnashing their teeth on frustration. It's also a good example of just how openly violent the rhetoric in these groups are becoming. An idiot who is about to get a knock on the door from the Fed's posted:
Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Jan 28, 2016 |
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Jan 28, 2016 17:46
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As a Millennial I posted:What makes you think they're millionaires? Typically a/any rancher that owns ranch land is a millionaire by virtue of owning that much land. It might not be liquid assets but still contributes to their net worth. Many homeowners in San Francisco are millionaires simply for owning a house in a neighborhood of million-dollar houses. This probably doesn't apply to Ammon or Randy though. Finnicum definitely was a millionaire. CrazyLittle fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Jan 28, 2016 |
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Jan 28, 2016 17:47
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theflyingorc posted:It's not just this country, though. Sovereigns are active throughout, at least, the English-speaking world. I have no idea if it crosses language barriers, but there have been Canadian and British SovCits arguing their points based on things in the US constitution. EDIT: And while I looked for the link on this, I was beaten like ::dennis-larry:meads:: in the case of Meads V Meads. The Crotch fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Jan 28, 2016 |
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Jan 28, 2016 17:47
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Has this been posted?quote:Cliven Bundy, father of militant leader Ammon Bundy, defied his own son on Thursday and called on armed occupiers at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge to stay and fight. http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/defying-his-own-son-cliven-bundy-rallies-oregon-militants-to-fight-to-the-end/
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Jan 28, 2016 17:49
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I identify sexually as a sailboat and your laws do not apply to me.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:49
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quote:After informing Mr. Meads about the Court’s contempt authority, I reassured him that I want to assist him and Ms. Meads to move forward, separate their affairs, and allow each to live on their own. There were still issues to explore, but that I would assist. Mr. Meads responded in this manner: You guys are right, it writes itself.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:49
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:Can't find a regular source for his worth, but it's said often enough. The guy has a ton of cattle, a large ranch, and raised 14 kids. He's not poor at any rate. His land alone is probably worth plenty. I'm just calling it out because there's a lot of chatter on twitter right now about the economic realities of ranching. Of course I can't find the loving link now, but one of them published a story from the Bundy ranch, which they said was surprisingly modest - that he wasn't the wealthy man that the public perceived him to be. A lot of people familiar with the situation are chiming in: https://twitter.com/evandhansen/status/692721981687406595
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Jan 28, 2016 17:50
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Mr Interweb posted:Has this been posted? He says from his comfy home with a scotch or some poo poo in his hand. loving rear end in a top hat.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:51
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I also thought Cliven didn't actually own the land his cattle grazed on. Isn't that the whole point?
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Jan 28, 2016 17:51
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Mr Interweb posted:Has this been posted? He's right, losing here really undermines his own situation. Which is, of course, good. Kazak_Hstan posted:I identify sexually as a sailboat and your laws do not apply to me. 
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Jan 28, 2016 17:52
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As a Millennial I posted:I also thought Cliven didn't actually own the land his cattle grazed on. Isn't that the whole point? His cattle went grazing on federal land. Oh and he doesn't have to pay fees for that cause WAH! WAH!
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Jan 28, 2016 17:52
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Mortanis posted:I've not run into any hardcore admiralty court SovCits. The few I've talked to simply believe that you are born A Person. Stuff like belonging to the US, having a social security number, a driver's license, paying taxes, being under the authority of the cops is all just trappings of an organization you are forced into. A Person is meant to be be free and live and exist, while all the crap of being a citizen is thrust upon them, so they forswear all of the stuff the government foists on them to become their own little sovereign nation. No person is born into a government, they are born a free citizen and then forced into the system. This, then, makes them not subject to the laws (like driving with a license or whatnot) because they're not under the law once they've renounced their US citizenship, viewing themselves as something akin to expatriates or visiting foreigners who can only be compelled if a "crime" (specifically, where there is an injured party which they argue stuff like speeding and not having a license do not) has been committed between their island of citizenship and the US government. Wouldn't this technically make them illegal immigrants? Can't we just round them up and drop them off in Mexico? Or get Trump to build a giant wall around their houses?
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Jan 28, 2016 17:52
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Mr Interweb posted:Has this been posted?
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Jan 28, 2016 17:53
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As a Millennial I posted:I also thought Cliven didn't actually own the land his cattle grazed on. Isn't that the whole point? Cliven Bundy owns land in addition to owning transferrable grazing rights on BLM land that he refuses to pay for. Asset-rich / cash-poor is no excuse.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:53
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As a Millennial I posted:I also thought Cliven didn't actually own the land his cattle grazed on. Isn't that the whole point? I don't know the details - he may own some of it, he may use public land while he moves his cows from one part of his own land or another, etc etc
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Jan 28, 2016 17:53
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As a Millennial I posted:I also thought Cliven didn't actually own the land his cattle grazed on. Isn't that the whole point? His herd outstrips his own land (or he was trying to avoid that by using the "Free" BLM area land). And yeah, no one's saying the bundy family is romney rich, but they do have significant assets. Though if the government ever actually does more than impound his kids he has a million dollar tax lien to settle up--which means even if he sold his land he probably would never see the cash.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:54
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The Crotch posted:This is the bit I really don't understand, the "your birth certificate is super valuable and if you can lodge your maker hook between its ring-segments you can ride the Shai-Hulud to an enormous pile of money" poo poo. Everything else is dumb but I can at least see some semblance of reasoning behind it; this is just... I don't get it, man. I believe the idea is that the government opens a secret bank account in your name when you're born and they take all of your welfare you might get in your life, out of that, and if you know the magic words you can access that account directly and do whatever you like with it.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:54
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Polybius91 posted:Father of the year right there. The clip isn't on youtube but my first thought was that AMerican Dad, Alt-Disneyland ep where Roger tells the Space Land followers "Die for me. Die.- For.- Me."
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Jan 28, 2016 17:54
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So I take it SovCits never ever leave the country? It's kinda funny that they tout themselves as free and unbound, but they actually can't cross any sort of border or even step inside an airport.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:54
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This confusion is why I'm looking for a source that would clear it up.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:54
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nerdz posted:So I take it SovCits never ever leave the country? It's kinda funny that they tout themselves as free and unbound, but they actually can't cross any sort of border or even step inside an airport. The ones that do are only sovcit when convenient. It's like bitcoin hodlers that pay for everything in cash.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:55
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He owns 160 acres. That's the ranch his parents purchased in the 1940's. He owns cattle and horses. A lot. He has a home. Maybe he doesn't have a lot of cash, but he has a lot of assets and is dedinetly not poor. If he fell into debt he could easily sell his cows and land and move to a nice apartment in the city. No one is putting a squeeze on these people financially but their own selves. They're scum who decry welfare queens and expect the US tax payer to subsidize their own failing businesses. gently caress them.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:57
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His land isn't really worth much, considering he can't sell it. No licensed escrow company in the country would touch it with a ten foot pole. As soon as they start the process any funds put into the escrow is going to get immediately seized. The only thing of worth he could really sell is his cattle, which I'm sure make him a pretty penny.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:00
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Was Pete Santilli the same guy who had the call-in livestream during that failed Million Man March on Washington a few years back? Not the actual Million Man March of course, some Tea Party (?) thing where like a handful of morons walked around town with Gadsden Flags while kids on field trips gawked at them and some guy in a trailer somewhere chain smoked and narrated? Does anyone know what I am talking about?
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Jan 28, 2016 18:03
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Mortanis posted:I've not run into any hardcore admiralty court SovCits. The few I've talked to simply believe that you are born A Person. Stuff like belonging to the US, having a social security number, a driver's license, paying taxes, being under the authority of the cops is all just trappings of an organization you are forced into. A Person is meant to be be free and live and exist, while all the crap of being a citizen is thrust upon them, so they forswear all of the stuff the government foists on them to become their own little sovereign nation. No person is born into a government, they are born a free citizen and then forced into the system. This, then, makes them not subject to the laws (like driving with a license or whatnot) because they're not under the law once they've renounced their US citizenship, viewing themselves as something akin to expatriates or visiting foreigners who can only be compelled if a "crime" (specifically, where there is an injured party which they argue stuff like speeding and not having a license do not) has been committed between their island of citizenship and the US government. this is absolutely magic words folks, i say the appropriate magic words and i am immune to the law
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Jan 28, 2016 18:03
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:No one is putting a squeeze on these people financially but their own selves. They're scum who decry welfare queens and expect the US tax payer to subsidize their own failing businesses. gently caress them. Seems callous to me to discount someone's financial problems just because they could escape them by abandoning their entire lifestyle. But we are talking about the guy who said blacks would be better off as slaves than living on welfare, so.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:03
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Ranchers are often up to their eyeballs in debt because their expenses don't stop when their business wraps up for the season. The same applies to a lot of "production" landowners like dairy farms, cattle farmers, orchards, etc. A lot of banks have specialized credit offices that deal solely in agribusiness lending and they handle them almost like commercial lines of credit with terms that fit their cash flow (I.e. borrow $500k at the end of winter and pay it off in November or what not) but ranchers are horrendous about following stuff like currency reporting laws. I can see a lot of them thinking they're invisible to the mythical feds because they deposited $9,900 on one day and $1,500 on the next day.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:05
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Honestly cannot wait until Cliven is rotting in the jail cell next to his sons. What a horrid piece of poo poo.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:06
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As a Millennial I posted:Speaking of Santilli, remember the guy on his stream from Tuesday who said "I'm documenting the arrest of Pete Santilli"? Anyone know why they didn't just arrest him right away? It seemed like they waiting for him to offer to try convince the women/children to get out of the compound because they grabbed him right after that. Also why were they so many heavily armed dudes there for the arrest?
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Jan 28, 2016 18:07
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Grem posted:His land isn't really worth much, considering he can't sell it. No licensed escrow company in the country would touch it with a ten foot pole. As soon as they start the process any funds put into the escrow is going to get immediately seized. The only thing of worth he could really sell is his cattle, which I'm sure make him a pretty penny. That's not quite true, the federal government might be interested in buying it from him.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:08
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As a Millennial I posted:Seems callous to me to discount someone's financial problems just because they could escape them by abandoning their entire lifestyle. But we are talking about the guy who said blacks would be better off as slaves than living on welfare, so. You're not entitled to a subsidized lifestyle is the counterpoint I guess, or entitled to a solvent business if it's not actually solvent in its own two feet. Plenty of ranchers - e.g. the who focus on ranching as opposed to making war on the government - seem to make a perfectly good living. Pretty much everything Bundy has ever said is a nasty lie, so I see no reason to take him seriously when he complains of financial hardship.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:09
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As a vegetarian I can't wait until we move onwards to our meat free paradise and all these horrible ranchers are left with worthless, pointless land, and their entire lifestyle is made obsolete. Basically like how I feel about coal miners, relaly.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:12
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Al! posted:That's not quite true, the federal government might be interested in buying it from him. Which plays right into their Agenda 21 conspiracy theories. 
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Jan 28, 2016 18:13
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Al! posted:That's not quite true, the federal government might be interested in buying it from him. At this point that would probably be bad optics. Pay our million dollar fine for ranching or sell us your ranch to close out the fine, your choice, would feed into these peoples' narrative. That said, it's been done. My park had an inholder who got in a big case over flying around shooting wolves. He got in a lot of financial trouble after going conspiritard in court, and wound up having to sell his land to the park to pay his bills. He still hates us for it. I've caught him on his old land guiding illegally and he's ranted at me about how we ran him off his land, etc. Then again giving them free blowjobs and land would also feed their narrative so who loving cares.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:14
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KittyEmpress posted:As a vegetarian I can't wait until we move onwards to our meat free paradise and all these horrible ranchers are left with worthless, pointless land, and their entire lifestyle is made obsolete. Only not really since there has almost never been programs to retrain laborers that have had their entire industry made obsolete, while those that controlled the means of production have always been able to reinvest into other ventures with minimum of lost profit.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:14
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Mercury_Storm posted:Anyone know why they didn't just arrest him right away? It seemed like they waiting for him to offer to try convince the women/children to get out of the compound because they grabbed him right after that. Also why were they so many heavily armed dudes there for the arrest? This was right outside the courthouse. Pete went to them, they didn't come after him. As for why it took a minute, who knows? Maybe they didn't even realize he was one of the guys they were looking for at first.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:15
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Kazak_Hstan posted:At this point that would probably be bad optics. Pay our million dollar fine for ranching or sell us your ranch to close out the fine, your choice, would feed into these peoples' narrative. As far as I'm concerned anything that robs these men of their ill-gotten gains is a good thing, regardless of the optics involved.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:16
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Yea, they probably have to make a phone call to someone higher up that went like "I think this is Pete Santilli(whatever), he just like, walked right up, do you want us to take him in?"
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Jan 28, 2016 18:17
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