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jivjov posted:Or you can enjoy the aspect of having a consistent, canonical, ongoing narrative. not being bogged down in weirdo fuckin canon is not the same as only taking movies completely individually and nobody in this thread advocates ignoring the OT when talking about the PT and vice versa
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Jan 28, 2016 17:53
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cargohills posted:not being bogged down in weirdo fuckin canon is not the same as only taking movies completely individually and nobody in this thread advocates ignoring the OT when talking about the PT and vice versa Why is wanting continuity between the books, movies, and comics "weirdo"? Why do people persist on attaching a negative stigma to it? If you don't like having continuity, ignore it!
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Jan 28, 2016 17:56
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jivjov posted:Why is wanting continuity between the books, movies, and comics "weirdo"? Why do people persist on attaching a negative stigma to it? If you don't like having continuity, ignore it! The problem is less with continuity per se (I don't think anyone here is arguing against making sequels or anything like that) and more with treating films as if they're just chapters in a history textbook, and not treating films as what makes them an art form. Like it's the difference between Empire Strikes Back being a sequel because it has something to say about the original Star Wars, and the Wookiepedia answer of it being a sequel because it happened later in the timeline than A New Hope. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Jan 28, 2016 |
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Jan 28, 2016 18:14
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Raxivace posted:The problem is less with continuity per se (I don't think anyone here is arguing against making sequels or anything like that) and more with treating films as if they're just chapters in a history textbook, and not treating films as what makes them an art form. That and it severely constrains the creative process if you make all of them equally relevant. Like people sometimes complain about that with the PT, but at least people have seen the movies that the PT transitions into. Not many people know about Blue Space Hitler and his Force Repelling Pets. (and then you get into the actual quality of the other properties)
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Jan 28, 2016 18:18
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There are people that honestly think Alien 3 and Prometheus would be better films if they were just two hours of James Cameron reading aloud the Colonial Marines Technical Manual directly to the camera.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:26
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Like another way to think about it might be this: WHY is The Empire Strikes Back a sequel to Star Wars?computer parts posted:That and it severely constrains the creative process if you make all of them equally relevant. Yeah there's this too. Someone got me that EU book Lost Stars for Christmas. I've been reading and enjoying it. I think it's fun. It doesn't matter. It's not going to affect what happens in the upcoming movies in any significant way. It's just a story, and that's okay.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:27
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Neo Rasa posted:There are people that honestly think Alien 3 and Prometheus would be better films if they were just two hours of James Cameron reading aloud the Colonial Marines Technical Manual directly to the camera.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:38
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Slugworth posted:But we can all agree that this would definitely be better than Resurrection, right? This is better than Alien Resurrection: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE5Npasp4vI
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Jan 28, 2016 18:44
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Slugworth posted:But we can all agree that this would definitely be better than Resurrection, right? Resurrection has its moments. The visual style and body horror elements are just really at odds with the characterization.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:58
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Neo Rasa posted:There are people that honestly think Alien 3 and Prometheus would be better films if they were just two hours of James Cameron reading aloud the Colonial Marines Technical Manual directly to the camera. Suspension of disbelief is not infinitely stretchable. Plenty of people are less tolerant of what they feel is unbelievable behavior from professionals than others. You aren't superior for liking subjective art. The fact that they did film scenes better explaining their actions (but cut them for time) implies that they also felt that their actions required context, and I'd consider it pretty silly to declare superiority for liking a work of art more than its artist.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:27
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Why are you suspending your disbelief when you watch Star Wars. It obviously is fictional. Did you think that it actually happened at some point ? Strange.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:31
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Neurolimal posted:
The fact that they cut those scenes implies that they also felt the actions didn't actually require context, and I'd consider it pretty silly to declare superiority for liking a work of art more than its artist.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:31
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euphronius posted:Why are you suspending your disbelief when you watch Star Wars. It obviously is fictional. Did you think that it actually happened at some point ? Strange. Obviously, it happened a long time ago.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:45
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computer parts posted:That and it severely constrains the creative process if you make all of them equally relevant. Yeah, this is the big problem with the "continuity" obsession. I remember when I was younger going on TheForce.net and seeing people complain every time something in the EU was contradicted at all. Even totally irrelevant sources that only the biggest nerds cared about, like the tabletop RPGs and trading cards, were not to be contradicted under any circumstances. People got up in arms every time the cartoons, both the Tartakovski and Lucas ones, contradicted some obscure novel, no matter how bad the novel was or how inventive the newer interpretation was. The movies always had a "less is more" approach to world-building, letting the viewers' imaginations fill in some of the details without overly explaining everything, while the EU is the total antithesis of that, explaining everything to absurd degrees, retconning and re-retconning things eight thousand times(seriously, if you look at the "Legends" version of the theft of the Death Star plans on Wookiepedia it's the most convoluted thing ever), and generally running roughshod on any mystique the franchise has far more than midichlorians did. Plus, to reiterate, most of the EU was crap anyway, certainly not worth the tooth-and-nail fighting over every scrap of "canon".
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Jan 28, 2016 19:48
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I just really don't get the appeal of canon and continuity past a certain point. Like how the MCU movies all tie together- why is that exciting? I'll never understand it.Neurolimal posted:The fact that they did film scenes better explaining their actions (but cut them for time) implies that they also felt that their actions required context, and I'd consider it pretty silly to declare superiority for liking a work of art more than its artist. Maybe they were cut for time, maybe they were cut because of trust in the audience.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:50
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Beeez posted:most of the EU was crap anyway Incorrect. There were weaker entires, but overall the EU was pretty good.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:50
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jivjov posted:Incorrect. There were weaker entires, but overall the EU was pretty good. How much of it actually fit together into a coherent canon?
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Jan 28, 2016 19:52
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jivjov posted:Incorrect. There were weaker entires, but overall the EU was pretty good. Are you willing to vouch for 50% of the star wars EU? He did say most after all, not all.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:52
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I wonder if any part of R2D2 space map corresponded to any real-world depictions of the universe. I also like the idea of geeky astronomers naming distant star systems after stupid fanboy poo poo, because the idea of eventually coming across civilizations in those far-off zones and telling them that we initially named their solar system after an obscure StarWars EU reference is funny.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:55
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Lord Krangdar posted:How much of it actually fit together into a coherent canon? Almost all of it. The worst of it was when Clone Wars the TV show started overwriting or ignoring older sources.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:56
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piratepilates posted:Are you willing to vouch for 50% of the star wars EU? He did say most after all, not all. Sure. I think over 75% easily is good. Probably higher than that.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:56
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Beeez posted:Yeah, this is the big problem with the "continuity" obsession. I remember when I was younger going on TheForce.net and seeing people complain every time something in the EU was contradicted at all. Even totally irrelevant sources that only the biggest nerds cared about, like the tabletop RPGs and trading cards, were not to be contradicted under any circumstances. People got up in arms every time the cartoons, both the Tartakovski and Lucas ones, contradicted some obscure novel, no matter how bad the novel was or how inventive the newer interpretation was. The movies always had a "less is more" approach to world-building, letting the viewers' imaginations fill in some of the details without overly explaining everything, while the EU is the total antithesis of that, explaining everything to absurd degrees, retconning and re-retconning things eight thousand times(seriously, if you look at the "Legends" version of the theft of the Death Star plans on Wookiepedia it's the most convoluted thing ever), and generally running roughshod on any mystique the franchise has far more than midichlorians did. Plus, to reiterate, most of the EU was crap anyway, certainly not worth the tooth-and-nail fighting over every scrap of "canon". jivjov posted:Almost all of it. The worst of it was when Clone Wars the TV show started overwriting or ignoring older sources. 
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Jan 28, 2016 19:57
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The very concept of the EU is bad. Let-alone the content.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:57
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jivjov posted:Incorrect. There were weaker entires, but overall the EU was pretty good. Nah, most of it was crap. Even the EU fans generally hated most of the books and the comics. There were only a few series that they liked out of all the stuff Dark Horse, Bantam, and Del Rey, and the video games, tabletop RPGs, and trading cards might have been fun(I only have experience with the first category), few to none of them had great stories. As much as I like Kyle Katarn, for instance, I don't really care about some scepter of Marka Ragnos or "Shadowtroopers" or any of it being part of the overall story of Star Wars.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:58
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jivjov posted:Incorrect. There were weaker entires, but overall the EU was pretty good. Do you also cook exclusively with margarine?
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Jan 28, 2016 19:58
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Lord Krangdar posted:I just really don't get the appeal of canon and continuity past a certain point. Like how the MCU movies all tie together- why is that exciting? I'll never understand it. Either way, they still at one point felt that their actions required explanation, which is enough for me to consider it absurd that supporters label detractors as imbecilic cavemen demanding technical manuals.
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Jan 28, 2016 20:00
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There were already stories told about a particular event, why reinvent the wheel and retell it? Why not be creative and tell a story in and around the existing continuity? Or about a different character? Steve2911 posted:The very concept of the EU is bad. Let-alone the content. Why? How is an EU novel any different than a sequel film? Beeez posted:Nah, most of it was crap. Incorrect. homullus posted:Do you also cook exclusively with margarine? What does this have to do with anything? If you must know, I've used both butter and margarine to cook
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Jan 28, 2016 20:02
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jivjov posted:Why not be creative and tell a story in and around the existing continuity?
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Jan 28, 2016 20:03
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Aren't single emote replies probteable? What are you even trying to say?
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Jan 28, 2016 20:05
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jivjov posted:Sure. I think over 75% easily is good. Probably higher than that. I'm going to need an itemised list for everything in the EU and whether you count it good or bad.
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Jan 28, 2016 20:06
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Neurolimal posted:Suspension of disbelief is not infinitely stretchable. Plenty of people are less tolerant of what they feel is unbelievable behavior from professionals than others. You aren't superior for liking subjective art. I love this post. I didn't say I was superior for liking subjective art (as opposed to something that is objectively art because that's totally a thing like for example the sentry gun sequence of the 1986 film Aliens) and it amazes me that you can only frame your post in terms of "unbelievable behavior from professionals" like that's supposed to completely shut down why I like a movie or not. Years of hatred of a film that people can still only articulate as "Well if I was on that ship I would have simply used my unflappable nerves, professionalism, and knowledge of action and horror films to..." The fact that they cut those scenes for time doesn't imply, but actually means that they didn't think extra context would be needed because everything is already there. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Jan 28, 2016 |
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Jan 28, 2016 20:06
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jivjov posted:Aren't single emote replies probteable? What are you even trying to say? You can probably figure it out. I have faith in you!
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Jan 28, 2016 20:07
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Creativity and ingenuity can thrive from adversity and challenge. The simplest answer for "why does everything need to fitbinto canon and continuity?" Is "because, for that person, it culminates in a more convincingly realistic and believable universe." Same reason for why someone would follow a soap opera for decades, or hundreds of comic issues.
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Jan 28, 2016 20:08
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Mechafunkzilla posted:You can probably figure it out. I have faith in you! That you're an elitist prick who doesn't like the idea of anything other than the holy original trilogy being considered "Star Wars" and you get off on insulting people who happened to enjoy the Expanded Universe?
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Jan 28, 2016 20:08
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piratepilates posted:I'm going to need an itemised list for everything in the EU and whether you count it good or bad. I'll work something up for at least the novels when I get home today.
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Jan 28, 2016 20:09
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Neurolimal posted:Creativity and ingenuity can thrive from adversity and challenge. Are you really using soap operas and hundred-issue comic runs as your benchmarks for narrative creativity?
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Jan 28, 2016 20:10
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Neo Rasa posted:I love this post. I didn't say I was superior for liking subjective art (as opposed to something that is objectively art because that's totally a thing) and it amazes me that you can only frame you post in terms of "unbelievable behavior from professionals" because it is totally out of character and bizarre for a biologist to touch an animal. Years of hatred of a film that people can still only articulate as "Well if I was on that ship I would have simply used my knowledge of action and horror films to..." I've never watched the film, so the only hatred on display is that towards the implication that ones hypothetical opinion is personally valid. I emphasized subjective for the fact that there is no fact or Killing Word that makes someones negative opinion unworthy. quote:Are you really using soap operas and hundred-issue comic runs as your benchmarks for narrative creativity? No. Read that those two statements exist in separate paragraphs. I am using soap operas and serial comics as examples where the breadth of interconnected stories may immerse its viewer.
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Jan 28, 2016 20:10
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Guys, observe how long the Wookiepedia article for the Death Star plans is: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Star_plans/Legends It went from the Rebellion winning their first battle against the Empire to acquire the plans, to several different battles that all involved stealing a fragment of the overall plans, and if you look at the individual battles they themselves involve a bunch of different, contradictory sources. The creators of new stories were supposed to adhere to all of this. If you are an EU fan, you think of Han Solo sitting in that cantina on Tatooine fresh off helping the Rebels steal a fragment of the Death Star plans, while his girlfriend who he was so in love with he considered marrying her, died in a separate battle to also get the Death Star plans.
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Jan 28, 2016 20:10
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jivjov posted:That you're an elitist prick who doesn't like the idea of anything other than the holy original trilogy being considered "Star Wars" and you get off on insulting people who happened to enjoy the Expanded Universe? I, uh, what? What have I ever said about any of this? I couldn't give less of a poo poo about what is or isn't "authentic Star Wars". Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Jan 28, 2016 |
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Jan 28, 2016 20:11
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Mechafunkzilla posted:I, uh, what? When have I ever said about any of this? The use of derisive smilies against posts implying that anything other than the films could be considered creative? The fact that you're mocking me for liking the EU? You refuse to elaborate on your stance, leaving it to me to "figure it out", so I have elected to paint you in a rather negative light.
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Jan 28, 2016 20:13
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