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I suppose the heart of my confusion stems from not understanding the appeal of eternal conflict. If Star Wars is to be foreverongoing, then peace is impossible. The droids must always be enslaved.
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Jan 29, 2016 07:28
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There will be value in art about droids being enslaved as long as droids are enslaved in the real world.
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Jan 29, 2016 07:30
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Jack Gladney posted:It's not defeatist to see the horizon imposed by the culture industry, but it is delusional to imagine that products of the culture industry are meaningful tools of resistance. I didn't say anything about 'tools of resistance'. I find your lack of faith disturbing.
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Jan 29, 2016 07:38
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How many colours of lightsaber are there that have appeared in the movies and tv shows? I'm counting 6 so far -- red, blue, green, purple, white, and black. Are there any others?
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Jan 29, 2016 07:41
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OT had green, red, and blue. PT added purple. That's all I got. KOTOR 2 added like... orange and silver and supergreen. Also yellow appeared in a lot of earlier EU artwork/fanstuff.
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Jan 29, 2016 07:52
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Sarkozymandias posted:OT had green, red, and blue. PT added purple. That's all I got. Maul gets a black lightsaber in Clone Wars, and Ahsoka dual-wields white ones in Rebels.
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Jan 29, 2016 07:54
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TheKingofSprings posted:How many colours of lightsaber are there that have appeared in the movies and tv shows? I'm counting 6 so far -- red, blue, green, purple, white, and black. Are there any others? Yellow/gold, for the temple guard: 
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Jan 29, 2016 07:54
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Serf posted:The only canon that matters is the one in your heart. word
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Jan 29, 2016 07:55
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I remember seeing art of Leia holding Vader's mask and wielding a yellow lightsaber and always favored the sort of... ambiguity of that saber color I guess. I thought it was neato.
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Jan 29, 2016 07:56
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Every long-running sci-fi franchise ends up loving with its own continuity. Early episodes of Star Trek referred to Kirk and co. being part of the "United Earth Space Probe Agency" and there's an episode where the transporter's broken and everyone's stranded on a planet because they didn't do the episode which introduced shuttlecraft until later. Doctor Who doesn't even bother with continuity for anything that happened long enough ago. Marvel and DC... are complicated. Really not a lot has changed with regards to the old EU stuff. Under Lucas the position was always that the books/comics/etc. were canon until he decided to contradict them. The new trilogy ignoring the books set after Return of the Jedi is acting in line with this policy, Disney just went a little further in saying "none of this is going to come up again, it's too complicated."
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Jan 29, 2016 09:56
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TheKingofSprings posted:Maul gets a black lightsaber in Clone Wars, and Ahsoka dual-wields white ones in Rebels. Ahsoka's lightsabers in Clone Wars are green and yellow as well.
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Jan 29, 2016 09:56
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I 100 percent agreedo with jivjov. I like continuity/canon. I get a kick out of It.
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Jan 29, 2016 10:17
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jivjov posted:Yeah! How dare people look forward to new entries into a franchise they like! That's so gross and bad, let's just abolish sequels forever! it is very silly to take "cannon" as some sort of holy writ and it's silly to hold future creators to things like rpg sourcebooks or trading cards or comics, if new things overwrite old things then treat the old things as "what ifs" sometimes you like a thing sometimes you don't.
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Jan 29, 2016 10:24
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No, it's fun.
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Jan 29, 2016 10:27
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Thematic continuity is good. As I pointed out two posts back, the proper thematic sequel to Empire Strikes Back is Elysium. The plot-canonical Episode 6, on the contrary, is a bunch of dopey horseshit that gets basic themes wrong. Luke effectively goes from crying out for God and getting no response, to going like 'oh hi Ben' and chatting with the dude on a bench.
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Jan 29, 2016 10:57
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HookedOnChthonics posted:I don't think jivjov is dumb, but they clearly fall so far into the green side of this fascinating little chart that I think bridging the gap in communication that's been evident over the last page or so isn't gonna happen. The priorities for what they seem to want out of star wars (prolonged, expansive, cohesive engagement in an aesthetic and storyline as it plays out across all forms of media) and what SMG, cnut, bill, et al are pushing for, which is unburdened engagement with the film series as a film series, rather than as baggage-laden nerd-culture theology (or in the case of eu fans theosophy) are kinda at cross-purposes. The hilarious thing about that website is that they unironically post about how superior the green method of analysis is because it provides "answers" Of course, they neglect to mention that very few people actually care about questions like "how big is the Star Destroyer, actually?"
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Jan 29, 2016 12:29
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I like how they've seen GalaxyQuest and not understood it at all.
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Jan 29, 2016 12:31
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Panzeh posted:The hilarious thing about that website is that they unironically post about how superior the green method of analysis is because it provides "answers" I thought that entire site was just about "how much would the Empire stomp the Federation?", so it's aimed at a pretty niche audience.
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Jan 29, 2016 12:36
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Elfgames posted:it is very silly to take "cannon" as some sort of holy writ and it's silly to hold future creators to things like rpg sourcebooks or trading cards or comics, if new things overwrite old things then treat the old things as "what ifs" sometimes you like a thing sometimes you don't. good thing that disney is gonna hold those creators to those things themselves because they clearly care about the interconnectedness of the various off-shoots of each franchise this anti-canon chat is really revealing insofar as a ton of people seem incredibly worried that Marvel-Movie-Style filmmaking is going to destroy the art of film and they're taking it out on the prototypical fan, jivjov Panzeh posted:The hilarious thing about that website is that they unironically post about how superior the green method of analysis is because it provides "answers" honestly it's pretty weird that a dude with a star wars avatar is tooling on a star war fan site and ostensibly the fellow star war fans who would read and enjoy that site lotta nerd self-hating and nerd hierarchy going on itt at the moment Waffles Inc. fucked around with this message at 12:40 on Jan 29, 2016 |
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Jan 29, 2016 12:37
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Isn't describing the not-so-secret dynamic of a conversation just another nerd hierarchy gambit? Ditto for this post.
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Jan 29, 2016 12:43
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Lt. Danger posted:Isn't describing the not-so-secret dynamic of a conversation just another nerd hierarchy gambit? Ditto for this post. fair point yeah, i didn't intend to position myself as "above it all" or anything, and this nerd hierarchy thing just becomes a turtles all the way down thing pretty fast i guess my point was it seemed to me that this thread over the last couple pages were basically about ragging on a star wars fan for liking star wars maybe too much and it seemed odd because I wonder what other fandoms would do that; it's not like jivjov is selling his mother's medicine for action figures or anything we've all got our escapism poo poo and it seemed unfair to criticize him for the canon stuff when there's fans of lots of things who sperg on and on (baseball and the DH, trek and how good some shows are compared to others, i'm sure gearheads and gun nuts have their own spergy topics too)
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Jan 29, 2016 13:01
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The thing that really gets me is people telling that I'm "doing it wrong" or that the way I like to enjoy Star Wars is "inherently bad" or whatever. If people don't care about continuity and that every single film in a complete vacuum that's fine by me. I'm not telling anyone that they're not being the right kind of fan.
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Jan 29, 2016 13:11
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Star Wars fans don't like Star Wars fans.
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Jan 29, 2016 13:20
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You're saying that a hypothetical Star Wars novelist is "doing it wrong" by not adhering to canon minutiae.
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Jan 29, 2016 13:21
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cargohills posted:You're saying that a hypothetical Star Wars novelist is "doing it wrong" by not adhering to canon minutiae. If they are commissioned to write a novel that fits within the Star Wars canon, yeah, they would be doing it wrong by turning in something that doesn't adhere to canon.
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Jan 29, 2016 13:25
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cargohills posted:You're saying that a hypothetical Star Wars novelist is "doing it wrong" by not adhering to canon minutiae. this isn't jivjov's call, mind it's a call made by the hypothetical novelist's employer: disney, and before that, lucas much like a novelist wouldn't be allowed to simply release a harry potter book (or a book within the harry potter world) without jk rowling's permission and sign-off, ostensibly because there's a certain vision (a general rule or principal upon which a thing is judged, if you will) rowling has for her world
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Jan 29, 2016 13:33
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jivjov posted:If they are commissioned to write a novel that fits within the Star Wars canon, yeah, they would be doing it wrong by turning in something that doesn't adhere to canon. And yet The Clone Wars series is the best thing ever to come out of the Star Wars EU. That why people have been dogpiling you, because you're prioritising adherence to canon over actually telling a good story, which Clone Wars did and absolutely could not have been told in another part of the Star Wars timeline
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Jan 29, 2016 13:35
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Waffles Inc. posted:this isn't jivjov's call, mind Yet he does care, though: jivjov posted:And those reinterpretations should be clearly delineated as such. Ignoring continuity for the sake of ignoring continuity is a lovely move for people who enjoy the ongoing universe. Tell a what-if or whatever, but call it what it is.
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Jan 29, 2016 13:37
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jivjov have you seen GalaxyQuest?
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Jan 29, 2016 13:37
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A Steampunk Gent posted:And yet The Clone Wars series is the best thing ever to come out of the Star Wars EU. That why people have been dogpiling you, because you're prioritising adherence to canon over actually telling a good story, which Clone Wars did and absolutely could not have been told in another part of the Star Wars timeline clone wars is explicitly canon though and george lucas personally signed off on ideas and storylines clone wars is in fact an example of the system working Lt. Danger posted:Yet he does care, though: ah well in that case i'm not batting for jivjov i suppose
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Jan 29, 2016 13:37
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A Steampunk Gent posted:And yet The Clone Wars series is the best thing ever to come out of the Star Wars EU. That why people have been dogpiling you, because you're prioritising adherence to canon over actually telling a good story, which Clone Wars did and absolutely could not have been told in another part of the Star Wars timeline Well the thing about Clone Wars is that there are only a handful of things that are explicitly overwritten. Everything else is just an issue of squeezing a LOT of battles and stories into a 3 year period. Edit:i think the clone wars TV show could have been just as good with those small handful of contradictions addressed. And most of them wouldn't have have taken more than a line or two of exposition to fix. jivjov fucked around with this message at 13:40 on Jan 29, 2016 |
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Jan 29, 2016 13:37
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Lt. Danger posted:jivjov have you seen GalaxyQuest? Yeah, I love it. Possibly my favorite performance from Alan Rickman (RIP  )
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Jan 29, 2016 13:38
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homullus posted:"Hey, if I look at a painting from a culture, I can beat them in battle!" ...Or he was just lying about that to cultivate the impression that he was some tactical God, which is an effective combat tactic for both improving morale and intimidating enemies. Patton cultivated his entire "Blood and Guts" persona back in WW2 precisely for this effect because he believed it tangibly improved the performance of his men. Continuity chat. I feel like there's this giant fear that the new continuity will inhibit creativity in a way that the old continuity did. As well intentioned as it was, the old canon because so incredibly convoluted and crazy that it eventually did just start stifling creativity. However, that does not mean that a well thought out continuity, that carefully selects what goes in is not a good idea. Having an established character who has a relatively defined history can be used as a reference point for a better overall story. Traitor for example, one of the better EU novels doesn't work without a significant idea of Jacen Solo's personality which is established in prior novels within the canon. The existence of the canon as a frame of reference for readers going into Traitor means that the author is free to cut some corners in order to get to the meat of what he's trying to say, his creative process has been enhanced by the existence of the continuity. Now imagine a later novel comes out that entirely contradicts all events that have happened to Jacen prior to Traitor. You can understand that some people might be miffed because it makes the achievement of traitor now contingent on a frame of reference that is no longer shared by the fanbase as there are now two versions of this character. I do not think having continuity necessarily makes things worse and feel that often it can enhance a product. The recent success of the Marvel movies in no small part due to the creation of a film continuity would suggest that a large number of people also believe that this is true and enjoy products being linked together.
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Jan 29, 2016 14:32
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jivjov posted:Yeah, I love it. Possibly my favorite performance from Alan Rickman (RIP Cool, it is a good movie. I also rewatched it for Alan Rickman recently. You're kind of like Mathasar, or Brandon. Mathasar believes GalaxyQuest is literally real ("historical documents") because he doesn't understand the concept of fiction. Brandon and the other tech-spec geeks do understand fiction, but they also pretend GalaxyQuest is real because "it's more fun that way". Brandon and Mathasar both believe in canon and continuity - it's important for them, whether for historical accuracy or to maintain suspension of disbelief. Both create 'secondary worlds' to encapsulate this canon: Brandon has his ship simulator, Mathasar his actual ship. Brandon and Mathasar are good people who do good things, but they're limited. They can imitate and recreate, but they can't apply GalaxyQuest to their own lives because all they see is the 'reality' - the models, the uniforms, the blood-ticks. Brandon can't actually make himself a real NSEA Protector. Mathasar can make a real NSEA Protector, but he can't command it himself. The inverse of this is Sarris, and to a lesser extent the actors in the beginning. Sarris knows GalaxyQuest isn't real. He sees the opening titles and instantly recognises it as "lies". Bizarrely enough, he also believes in canon and continuity, but for him they only apply to the real world. GalaxyQuest is not canon, it is discontinuous with his reality. It isn't true, and therefore it's valueless - stupid lies for children. Sarris is basically a broken Mathasar, who has realised it's all fake and therefore can't mean anything. He's also like those smug posters who drop in to threads like this to say "it's just a movie, it only exists to make money, it doesn't mean anything". The actors initially have a similar view. Rickman hates his stupid line and his stupid character that overshadows the real him (Shakespearean actor! five curtain calls!). Weaver has one job and it's boring and unnecessary. Even Allen, who likes the show and the fame, still snaps at his fans and brushes them aside to pursue Weaver/money/adventure. GalaxyQuest is fake and doesn't matter. The similarity all these characters share is the question "is GalaxyQuest real?" Mathasar and Brandon say yes, it's real, and that's why it matters. Sarris and the actors say no, it's fake, it doesn't matter. The first two-thirds of the film is farce, in which Allen and the others desperately attempt to maintain the pretence that GalaxyQuest is real. They're completely hopeless at it, but Mathasar is even more hopeless at recognising deception. The turning point is after Sarris captures the ship: the actors stop pretending to be heroes, and start being them. Allen shows some leadership, giving orders and praise and recognition to his crew. Rickman doesn't transform into a real Dr Lazarus, but he embraces his stupid line and the meaning it had for his one disciple, then leads an army to victory. Rockwell stops obsessing over how, as Crewman Number 6, he's doomed to die from the monster-of-the-week, and starts applying his knowledge of sci-fi tropes to become Security Chief 'Roc' Ingersol, despite canonically dying in Episode 81. Essentially, the actors give up asking the question "is GalaxyQuest real?" They know it isn't, and they know it doesn't help to pretend that it is, wittingly or unwittingly. They accept it's not real, that "canon and continuity" are false concepts, and yet are still able to see the value in the fiction for itself. GalaxyQuest is still valuable despite being fake - in fact, it's valuable because it is fake. Allen doesn't rise to the occasion because Jason Nesmith secretly actually canonically is Commander Quincy Taggart, but because he recognises what Taggart means (determination, self-sacrifice, responsibility) and applies them to his own life - not some perfect recreation of it. Canon is a trap. Discarding canon is what sets you free. I hope that all makes sense.
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Jan 29, 2016 14:33
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And all that is well and good and all; but at the end of the day, you're still trying to tell me that I'm "doing it wrong" by enjoying reading stories that adhere to an overall continuity. That in order to fit your view of being a "proper" fan, I need to change how I enjoy and consume Star Wars.
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Jan 29, 2016 14:35
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You can enjoy GalaxyQuest however you like, but Mathasar is still the butt of jokes throughout the first two acts, and the Mathasar of the finale is demonstrably a better person than the Mathasar of the beginning. e: like, you can be Mathasar all you want, but that means being the butt of the thread
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Jan 29, 2016 14:41
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jivjov posted:And all that is well and good and all; but at the end of the day, you're still trying to tell me that I'm "doing it wrong" by enjoying reading stories that adhere to an overall continuity. Yeah they're wrong and if you haven't realised how loving batshit this thread is then I hope now is the time. You keep being you.
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Jan 29, 2016 14:44
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Yorkshire Tea posted:Yeah they're wrong and if you haven't realised how loving batshit this thread is then I hope now is the time. You keep being you. I would say that they're wrong to a certain extent, mostly depending on who they are addressing. There are some folks who have a slavish devotion to cannon to the point where otherwise good stories would not exist everyone thought as they do. If a creator needs to alter some previous event or rule within a series in order to tell a good story then so be it. Cannon shouldn't stop good and great stories from being told within a certain fictional universe. Many alterations or "retcons," though, are merely oversights or are entirely pointless changes made borne of a writer's desire to put their stamp on a work. Cannon isn't just important to nerds, or the strawman nerds comedy forum posters like to build, it's a fairly well known and taught rule of writing speculative fiction that you don't break the rules of your universe and if you do so then you do it in a way that does not break the reader or watcher's suspension of disbelief. This is true for the rules of how things work in a fictional universe and the rules of time and events and so on. These are things that matter to everyone who consumes fictional works, whether they know it or not. It's just that turbonerds are the only people you're going to see posting about it online. There's a super dank meme that floats around on SA, that nerds are bad and caring about any fictional universe is bad - anything aside from being a passive consumer is bad - and oh here are all these movies, including Star Wars, that are really making fun of you. For some it's an elaborate gimmicky troll and others have genuinely bought into it. Don't let people who spend far too much time posting on an obscure comedy forum tell you that anything you do is a waste of time because, if it is, their posting, continually telling you how silly they think you and other nerds are, has likely multiplied the net loss to humanity, in terms of actual productive thought and effort, a hundred fold. TL;DR: gently caress'em. Huzanko fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Jan 29, 2016 |
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Jan 29, 2016 15:45
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Lt. Danger posted:You can enjoy GalaxyQuest however you like, but Mathasar is still the butt of jokes throughout the first two acts, and the Mathasar of the finale is demonstrably a better person than the Mathasar of the beginning. You realize our heroes win in the end because they embrace Galaxy Quest as an idea and make it a reality. It's only their devotion to a fictional work that ends up saving them. Our Galaxy Quest stars are all disinterested schmucks and idiots with dying careers but the fans believe in them and in turn they believe in themselves in the end. You have a lovely SMG-like reading of the film. It's interesting, and part of a decent reading of the film, but you're ignoring what else is there, out of a desire to make fun of cannon-loving nerds and the like.
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Jan 29, 2016 15:51
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No one is saying sequels and continuity are dumb, they're saying that they're totally optional and if a story comes out that says "this ignores those other books people already wrote" the reasonable response is to say "okay" and move on in your life.
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