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Morroque posted:I wonder if this is either a social or a technical problem. Since we are already operating at a base level of crazy, to what factor does social media as it currently exists enables it further. Like, this wouldn't happen on SA because its rules are still rooted in the somewhat older mindset of the Internet somehow being different from real life, and any user crossing the two on behalf of another user seems unbelievably rude. It seems like a very tragic flaw that post-Facebook social sites will enable these sorts of battles to take place. (Though, this is probably a whole other totpic unto itself.) It's more a function of the nature of Narrativists and the radicalization process than it is a function of modern social media. Narrativists always are looking for an enemy to focus their hatred on, and if they feel they have sufficient social sanction then someone will act on that hate and murder an "enemy" because the evil of the enemy was so great that this action was for the greater good. 200 years ago this sort of behaviour pattern resulted in lynchings and the like. Social media is mostly an accelerant in this situation, because echo boxes more readily convince a Narrativist that their actions have social sanction.
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Jan 30, 2016 03:22
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I think sovcits just believe jedi mind tricks are real.
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Jan 30, 2016 03:23
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There's that phrase 'Conservatism cannot fail, it can only be failed'. That's not a political phrase, it's a religious axiom, and I think it's a large part of what's killing the Republican party, on top of the racism and general bigotry and xenophobia they've so carefully cultivated. They basically believe it's impossible for their politics/beliefs/preconceptions of how the world should be to ever be wrong, which is why the Party of Personal Responsibility's reaction to failure is always blaming it on someone else, a conspiracy, or a scapegoat who wasn't 'conservative enough' which gets warped into 'actively traitorous' very quickly. They firmly believe Conservatism is Right and True and can't understand why it's being summarily rejected at every turn. Adaptation in this case isn't just discouraged, it's outright forbidden, and so all they can do is keep trying to get more and more extreme while they bleed voters and potential voters.
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Jan 30, 2016 03:25
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kartikeya posted:Also, you know, Mormon doctrine isn't fond of stealing, threatening, or encouraging armed insurrection barring some pretty strenuous conditions (although of course anyone can rationalize teh evil tyrannical government). Early Mormon history has considerable violent conflict against the US government, including a few mass killings of US citizens. Not to mention the whole leaving for Utah is fundamentally gently caress YOU DAD YOU CANT TELL ME WHAT I CANT DO! stubblyhead posted:I can only speak for myself, but I think an insider's perspective, so to speak, is very interesting. Also, are the Bundys mainline LDS? I could swear I read somewhere that they were FLDS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sects_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement They're all tiny and many are basically dead. An interesting, but very short, list is the left-leaning splinters. Early Mormonism was basically socialism, which was unfortunately purged. Modern Mormonism has drunk deeply from the prosperity gospel koolaid. Corvinus fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Jan 30, 2016 |
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Jan 30, 2016 03:25
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kartikeya posted:There's that phrase 'Conservatism cannot fail, it can only be failed'. That's not a political phrase, it's a religious axiom, and I think it's a large part of what's killing the Republican party, on top of the racism and general bigotry and xenophobia they've so carefully cultivated. They basically believe it's impossible for their politics/beliefs/preconceptions of how the world should be to ever be wrong, which is why the Party of Personal Responsibility's reaction to failure is always blaming it on someone else, a conspiracy, or a scapegoat who wasn't 'conservative enough' which gets warped into 'actively traitorous' very quickly. They firmly believe Conservatism is Right and True and can't understand why it's being summarily rejected at every turn. Adaptation in this case isn't just discouraged, it's outright forbidden, and so all they can do is keep trying to get more and more extreme while they bleed voters and potential voters. When they courted the Moral Majority they couched every argument in religion, so now they have dogma instead of a platform, I think they honestly believe there aren't alot of people living in cities compared to the middle of nowhere, and that they are easily the vast majority of the country, ignoring things like facts and figures, which is probably easier if you assume the other parties beliefs are literally evil.
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Jan 30, 2016 03:29
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Turtle Sandbox posted:I think sovcits just believe jedi mind tricks are real. I'm listening to these guys talk and talk and talk on NTA trying to keep an open mind and consider their weird theories about politics and all I'm really concluding is that they think if they talk enough without ever actually saying anything that people will just buy in. Like they were talking about how the Bundy's took documents from the refuge about investigations on Hammonds going back to '96 and I kept waiting for them to explain what nefarious thing the documents would reveal. But they never did it. It was like the simple fact that they had documents was nefarious enough, and the Feds may want them not to share it on the internet. Ohhhhhhhh. Oh wait, they just said that there's a cave on the refuge where they found an Illuminati compass, so that blows this wide open! I need to stop.
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Jan 30, 2016 03:29
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STAC Goat posted:I'm listening to these guys talk and talk and talk on NTA trying to keep an open mind and consider their weird theories about politics and all I'm really concluding is that they think if they talk enough without ever actually saying anything that people will just buy in. Like they were talking about how the Bundy's took documents from the refuge about investigations on Hammonds going back to '96 and I kept waiting for them to explain what nefarious thing the documents would reveal. But they never did it. It was like the simple fact that they had documents was nefarious enough, and the Feds may want them not to share it on the internet. Ohhhhhhhh. Let me tell you about the Bohemian Grove...
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Jan 30, 2016 03:31
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stubblyhead posted:I can only speak for myself, but I think an insider's perspective, so to speak, is very interesting. Also, are the Bundys mainline LDS? I could swear I read somewhere that they were FLDS. I don't honestly know. FLDS would make sense (though as far as I'm aware there is no official FLDS church, just a lot of splinter groups that tend to end up as isolationist communes), but mainstream LDS isn't, obviously, a barrier against radicalization or just generally being a total poo poo. One advantage the LDS church does have is a pretty decent control of doctrine; which is to say the same thing is, ideally, taught in any Mormon chapel anywhere in the world. You get instances where an area might start getting off into weird(er?) territory, but the way things are organized tend to make it easier to spot this early and have a church authority show up to go 'uh, no guys, that's not quite right, sorry'. I can't give too many insights into FLDS groups, or the largest breakoff I'm aware of, the RLDS (or Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints). I'm even a little bit of an outsider when it comes to what tends to be referred to as 'Utah Mormons', where you definitely have a lot of politics mixing with doctrine in annoying ways, especially since there are just so many Mormons in that state for obvious reasons, because while I've certainly visited Utah a number of times, I've never really lived there for any significant period of time (one semester, basically, in a tiny tiny town with the only stoplight in the county). I can give a try at describing differences or what might be the splintering issues (for FLDS groups, for the record, it's almost always either FLDS wanting to practice polygamy or being pissed off about the 1970's decision to allow black people to hold the priesthood, and often a mixture of the two).
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Jan 30, 2016 03:35
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Turtle Sandbox posted:When they courted the Moral Majority they couched every argument in religion, so now they have dogma instead of a platform, I think they honestly believe there aren't alot of people living in cities compared to the middle of nowhere, and that they are easily the vast majority of the country, ignoring things like facts and figures, which is probably easier if you assume the other parties beliefs are literally evil. I got into it online in a thread from a local alt paper that laid out exactly which counties in WA state paid more than they took in taxes. Lo and behold all of our Eastern WA blood red rural counties eat up all of Seattle's taxes, the exact opposite of what they cry about all the time. In the middle of it someone started arguing, based on the map, that Seattle overrides the conservative will of the "primary landmass". My only reply was "too bad landmasses can't vote."
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Jan 30, 2016 03:36
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Geostomp posted:I guess. Still, as long as they have a stranglehold on congress through their super-gerrymandering and voter suppression, they will keep on leading us further and further towards the abyss. It'll only get worse as their base continues to shrink and they realize that they've driven off everyone except extremists. What are you talking about? They are constantly being thwarted by the LIEbrals at every turn and need more people and power to be able to restore America from the pits of horribleness that it's fallen to. Reality doesn't matter, they believe this to be true.
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Jan 30, 2016 03:37
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Corvinus posted:Early Mormon history has considerable violent conflict against the US government, including a few mass killings of US citizens. Not to mention the whole leaving for Utah is fundamentally gently caress YOU DAD YOU CANT TELL ME WHAT I CANT DO! Early Mormon history also has a TON of violence directed against Mormons. That's kind've a lopsided view of things. Leaving for Utah was less a matter of 'we do what we want!' and more a matter of 'if we stay we're running the very real risk of getting murdered by the state, let alone all the mob violence.' A fair number left Nauvoo in the dead of winter because it was basically stay and die or leave and take your chances on the other side of the Mississippi. I'm not trying to justify the return violence, mind you, but context is important, and I imagine it does factor into a number of people like the Bundy's for whom distrust of the government is probably a family legacy. As far as prosperity gospel in the church goes, that is and isn't true. Mormon doctrine is specifically against that kind of nonsense, but a lot of Mormon members, especially, I'm sure you're shocked, very rich members, buy into it hard for the same kind of reasons anyone else does.
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Jan 30, 2016 03:42
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kartikeya posted:Early Mormon history also has a TON of violence directed against Mormons. That's kind've a lopsided view of things. Leaving for Utah was less a matter of 'we do what we want!' and more a matter of 'if we stay we're running the very real risk of getting murdered by the state, let alone all the mob violence.' A fair number left Nauvoo in the dead of winter because it was basically stay and die or leave and take your chances on the other side of the Mississippi. I'm not trying to justify the return violence, mind you, but context is important, and I imagine it does factor into a number of people like the Bundy's for whom distrust of the government is probably a family legacy. Dude, I'm ex-Mormon. I, ideologically, should hate Mormonism but somehow retain a fairly charitable opinion of it. The Mormon telling leaves out plenty of detail, including the fact that sufficient concentrations of Mormons would dominate politics, law, and business in the area, turning towns into Mormon theocracies. Non-Mormons refusing to play along would get punished, or in this case, have their business burned down for the non-crime of badmouthing the religion. Corvinus fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Jan 30, 2016 |
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Jan 30, 2016 03:54
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Corvinus posted:Dude, I'm ex-Mormon. I, ideologically, should hate Mormonism but somehow retain a fairly charitable opinion of it. The Mormon telling leaves out plenty of detail, including the fact that sufficient concentrations of Mormons would dominate politics and law in the area, turning towns into Mormon theocracies. I thought that was the point of heading out west, so they could have their harems in peace.
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Jan 30, 2016 03:55
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Corvinus posted:Dude, I'm ex-Mormon. I, ideologically, should hate Mormonism but somehow retain a fairly charitable opinion of it. The Mormon telling leaves out plenty of detail, including the fact that sufficient concentrations of Mormons would dominate politics and law in the area, turning towns into Mormon theocracies. And as previously mentioned, I've been Mormon all my life and I've done more than just listen to church sermons when it comes to historical research. I'm not discounting what you're saying, I'm saying it's not that simple. But honestly, let's not get into that here. I'm not really interested in a big debate about which of us knows more about random history (maybe later, I'm just mentally out of fucks at the moment due to personal issues), and it stands a really big chance of derailing the thread.
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Jan 30, 2016 03:56
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Predicting the end of the GOP is pretty loving naive. Republican control of the house and Senate plus Republican governorships and off year gubernatorial elections ensures they'll be able to dominate government for quite some time. And all it takes is apathy, inertia or a sufficiently boring presidential race for them to get that office too. Their winning, not losing.
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Jan 30, 2016 03:58
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Intel&Sebastian posted:I got into it online in a thread from a local alt paper that laid out exactly which counties in WA state paid more than they took in taxes. Lo and behold all of our Eastern WA blood red rural counties eat up all of Seattle's taxes, the exact opposite of what they cry about all the time. I live in one of those eastern Washington counties (although not in a terribly rural area, just outside city limits), this doesn't surprise me at all.
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Jan 30, 2016 04:00
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Shbobdb posted:Predicting the end of the GOP is pretty loving naive. Republican control of the house and Senate plus Republican governorships and off year gubernatorial elections ensures they'll be able to dominate government for quite some time. Shbobdb posted:
Tell us more about naive predictions, welcher!
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Jan 30, 2016 04:05
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Shbobdb posted:Predicting the end of the GOP is pretty loving naive. Republican control of the house and Senate plus Republican governorships and off year gubernatorial elections ensures they'll be able to dominate government for quite some time. I mean do you wanna sit here and compare our relative track record for predicting things or do you want to just man up and take your ban? There is more than a little irony in you calling my predictions naive. While I've certainly not batted 1000, I've been pretty close to the mark overall
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Jan 30, 2016 04:09
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Intel&Sebastian posted:I got into it online in a thread from a local alt paper that laid out exactly which counties in WA state paid more than they took in taxes. Lo and behold all of our Eastern WA blood red rural counties eat up all of Seattle's taxes, the exact opposite of what they cry about all the time. I remember seeing something like that in the Stranger maybe five or so years ago, I think against the backdrop of the most recent instance of "we'll go form our own state!" I think the eastern half would figure out real quick that they'd made a terrible mistake.
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Jan 30, 2016 04:13
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kartikeya posted:Oh ffs So basically, remove all law enforcement and judiciary who carried out the law. That's all they want! How reasonable! They just want a fair shake! A clean slate! If you ignore all of their crimes they've already committed, you can't charge them with anything! Any Patriot knows that!
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Jan 30, 2016 04:17
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Intel&Sebastian posted:I got into it online in a thread from a local alt paper that laid out exactly which counties in WA state paid more than they took in taxes. Lo and behold all of our Eastern WA blood red rural counties eat up all of Seattle's taxes, the exact opposite of what they cry about all the time. There's some old cranky guy in Hermiston or Pendleton, OR who is trying to start a "movement" to have eastern OR & WA become part of Idaho. He admits one of the key stumbling blocks is Idaho being unlikely to take on more area that is a net drain on the budget.
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Jan 30, 2016 04:30
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STAC Goat posted:I'm listening to these guys talk and talk and talk on NTA trying to keep an open mind and consider their weird theories about politics and all I'm really concluding is that they think if they talk enough without ever actually saying anything that people will just buy in. Like they were talking about how the Bundy's took documents from the refuge about investigations on Hammonds going back to '96 and I kept waiting for them to explain what nefarious thing the documents would reveal. But they never did it. It was like the simple fact that they had documents was nefarious enough, and the Feds may want them not to share it on the internet. Ohhhhhhhh. There are decades worth of evidence against the Hammonds? They MUST be in the right!
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Jan 30, 2016 04:31
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I know it happened a while ago now but the FBI releasing that video was a damned impressive way to deal with that.
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Jan 30, 2016 04:42
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STAC Goat posted:Oh wait, they just said that there's a cave on the refuge where they found an Illuminati compass, so that blows this wide open!  OK so I'm actually a Freemason in Oregon, and though I've never been personally, there is actually a cave out in the Burns area where they sometimes confer degrees, just for shits and giggles. I'm pretty sure it's on private property and a lot farther away from Burns than the refuge is, but still, what are the odds. Do you remember anything else about the context of that part of the discussion?
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Jan 30, 2016 04:46
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Kazak_Hstan posted:There are decades worth of evidence against the Hammonds? They MUST be in the right! http://www.scribd.com/doc/291817610/Hammond-Ranch-Update-Open-Letter-To-Sheriff-David-Ward-All-Sheriffs-In-The-United-States
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Jan 30, 2016 04:47
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highme posted:There's some old cranky guy in Hermiston or Pendleton, OR who is trying to start a "movement" to have eastern OR & WA become part of Idaho. He admits one of the key stumbling blocks is Idaho being unlikely to take on more area that is a net drain on the budget. The state of Jefferson (basically the methy parts of northern California) has the same problem. If formed, it would be the poorest state in the union.
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Jan 30, 2016 04:51
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theultimo posted:http://www.scribd.com/doc/291817610/Hammond-Ranch-Update-Open-Letter-To-Sheriff-David-Ward-All-Sheriffs-In-The-United-States So is that the seed of Sovereign Citizenship? Southern resistance to occupation? Interesting.
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Jan 30, 2016 04:51
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Takoluka posted:I wish there was a bot that responded to every defender of the guy with "If he didn't want to get shot, he shouldn't have broken the law". He was no angel, after all.
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Jan 30, 2016 04:54
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Geostomp posted:I guess. Still, as long as they have a stranglehold on congress through their super-gerrymandering and voter suppression, they will keep on leading us further and further towards the abyss. It'll only get worse as their base continues to shrink and they realize that they've driven off everyone except extremists. Looking at what happened to GOP-like parties elsewhere, I'd take a guess that they'll just split. The old GOP will be the die-hard crazies and the majority new Republicans will basically be the old, somewhat saner Republican party, and sliiightly more willing to give ground on issues that are already lost.
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Jan 30, 2016 04:57
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theultimo posted:http://www.scribd.com/doc/291817610/Hammond-Ranch-Update-Open-Letter-To-Sheriff-David-Ward-All-Sheriffs-In-The-United-States Oh my god there isn't a single true piece of information in that entire thing, unless you count her stating her name.
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Jan 30, 2016 04:58
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Quorum posted:Oh my god there isn't a single true piece of information in that entire thing, unless you count her stating her name. The 'fact' that this transition to 'evil corporation' coincides with the Civil War/ Reconstruction is really informative, actually.
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Jan 30, 2016 05:04
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theultimo posted:http://www.scribd.com/doc/291817610/Hammond-Ranch-Update-Open-Letter-To-Sheriff-David-Ward-All-Sheriffs-In-The-United-States quote:
hosed up if true
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Jan 30, 2016 05:09
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McDowell posted:So is that the seed of Sovereign Citizenship? Southern resistance to occupation? Interesting. For reference, the whole movement was started by an avowed racist Neo-Confederate in response to the National Guard being deployed to allow black students to begin attending Little Rock Central High. Desperately searching for some kind of justification for their own biases is part of their very core. my dad posted:Looking at what happened to GOP-like parties elsewhere, I'd take a guess that they'll just split. The old GOP will be the die-hard crazies and the majority new Republicans will basically be the old, somewhat saner Republican party, and sliiightly more willing to give ground on issues that are already lost. I wouldn't be surprised if they really did officially split after Cruz/Trump fail this November. They could very well start eating themselves out of disbelief that they could possibly fail once more.
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Jan 30, 2016 05:10
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DFB is streaming again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76elOS7LAaI hears a drone apparently. E: .............beep........................beep............................beep............ Riveting stuff. -Zydeco- fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Jan 30, 2016 |
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Jan 30, 2016 05:19
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Are they death-pacting or claiming they didn't do anything wrong this time.
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Jan 30, 2016 05:30
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theultimo posted:http://www.scribd.com/doc/291817610/Hammond-Ranch-Update-Open-Letter-To-Sheriff-David-Ward-All-Sheriffs-In-The-United-States You know how I know she's full of poo poo? She doesn't name anything. "via a treaty (the last one in 1947)". What loving treaty? Please cite your sources. -Zydeco- posted:DFB is streaming again. Please shoot the drone down. Do it do it do it do it!
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Jan 30, 2016 05:32
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-Zydeco- posted:DFB is streaming again. A chatroom comment just told them to stop streaming because the FBI was using all these videos as evidence. But why bother doing something smart now? eta: They're gonna shoot each other by mistake on youtube, aren't they. trickybiscuits fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Jan 30, 2016 |
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Jan 30, 2016 05:34
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https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/clo/5423869615.html
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Jan 30, 2016 05:41
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The utter lack of respect for these guys has been the best part of all this.
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Jan 30, 2016 05:45
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As powerful as the American military is, our true strength as a nation is our weaponized snark. No on else is even in the same league as us.
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Jan 30, 2016 05:50
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