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Phrasing posted:
When I run a 4 Houndmaster team.
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Feb 2, 2016 18:40
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AnonSpore posted:Sorry that's the dumbest thing I've read in this whole thread I guess you missed the one guy posting about smashing 20 level 6 guys into the boss in first part of the darkest dungeon, never once thinking to change his strategy.
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Feb 2, 2016 18:41
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Kly posted:I guess you missed the one guy posting about smashing 20 level 6 guys into the boss in first part of the darkest dungeon, never once thinking to change his strategy. i suppose that guy at least wont be having a problem with an overleveled roster.
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Feb 2, 2016 18:45
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I thought I read somewhere once you managed to make it through a Darkest Dungeon run, none of the survivors counted as "In your roster" and freed you up to hire more.
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Feb 2, 2016 18:47
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Yeah it actually sounds like he had a pro strat. Way better than my plan of having a diverse roster leveled in parallel.
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Feb 2, 2016 18:47
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paranoid randroid posted:ive always approached the game in a way where experience is something that needs to be budgeted just as much as money. i go through my roster, figure which guys i want to use for boss runs, and which ones can send on missions without bumping them over the level threshold. its not really that big a deal if you put a little thought into it, but i can see how it would get up peoples nose, and tbh having to ask yourself "ok will this guy get TOO MUCH experience?" is kind of counter intuitive Right, but the problem is that this approach just got the rug yanked out from under it because dudes level through veteran content super quickly now.
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Feb 2, 2016 18:50
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Gabriel Pope posted:Right, but the problem is that this approach just got the rug yanked out from under it because dudes level through veteran content super quickly now. admittedly i havent seen this for myself yet, but it does indeed sound like theyre fixing the wrong problem here
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Feb 2, 2016 18:52
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I have found the boss pacing to be a little weird so far, but certainly not the huge problem that posters here are making it out to be. It's flat-out not feasible if your mindset is 'have an A-team do every boss', (not that anyone is making that argument). I think it's not feasible either to have the mindset 'do all the apprentice bosses, then all of the veteran bosses, then all of the champion bosses'. If you're focusing on the dungeons asymmetrically, which I think is what the current 'Deedz' economy is incentivizing, then you can be in a position where you have bosses of multiple tiers available at once. That way, your higher-level dudes can go after Veteran/Champion bosses while still being able to clear apprentice bosses with your backbenchers. I never was in a position where I was thinking 'oh I need to dismiss dudes or hack ini files to be able to do this boss', and I wasn't even particularly good about going after bosses ASAP. I eventually needed to upgrade my roster, sure, but that is necessary anyway to have a good bench for the DD in the long run. Now I'm at a point where all of the remaining bosses are champion-level, and I still have enough heroes to do apprentice or veteran dungeons if I want. The XP leveling out problem is not a problem once you start actually doing champion dungeons, since a level 5 hero will never be locked out of champion dungeons no matter how much XP is earned. I didn't really have any issue with the fact that my champion heroes initially had no champion bosses to fight, since champion dungeons were hard enough for them already. Successfully doing any dungeon helps with the progress bar for boss unlocks, so it's really not the end of the world if some of your roster hit level 5 before every veteran boss is unlocked. If you are at 25 full roster slots of level 5 heroes, you're playing the game in a different way, but if I understand things correctly, you can free up four roster slots by successfully doing a Darkest dungeon mission in any case. If you have a full roster of leveled-up dudes, it does seem like it's about time to take some strategic risks with them. That said, I would be annoyed if I had deliberately placed some level 4 heroes on the cusp of level 5 in order to do a boss, and then the patch pushed them out of eligibility despite my xp routing. Not sure how feasible an implementation that didn't do this would be.
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Feb 2, 2016 18:55
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They should just tie exp boosts to beating bosses. Like, beat all the bosses of a difficulty and you get +5% more xp, up to 15%
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Feb 2, 2016 18:56
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The only boss I'm never going to fight again is the Formless Flesh. I think the rank 3 version is straight up unfair. It does insane damage and crits on a regular basis. I tried fighting it 3 seperate times and each time the same thing happened; ridiculous crits at the start of the fight and the flesh going full offense. Even with the optimal party comp for slaughtering it with DOTs still can't kill it fast enough to keep people out of death's door.
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Feb 2, 2016 18:58
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I think the right solution is to lower the amount of XP that Veteran/Champion dungeons grant but add some kind of progression mechanic that accelerates leveling after you've passed the point in the game where you'd be doing those dungeons primarily. No idea how to implement that in a way that's fair and non-exploitable. And yes, the problem isn't a problem for actually doing Champion dungeons. There's nothing wrong with doing Champion dungeons at Champion levels. The issue is more that the Veteran part of the game is too short and it's too expensive to artificially extend it like the Apprentice part can be by firing guys.
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Feb 2, 2016 19:03
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Gabriel Pope posted:Right, but the problem is that this approach just got the rug yanked out from under it because dudes level through veteran content super quickly now. paranoid randroid posted:admittedly i havent seen this for myself yet, but it does indeed sound like theyre fixing the wrong problem here By adjusting the resolve they've caused another problem with gold costs and building upgrades. Money's already tight.
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Feb 2, 2016 19:06
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Feb 2, 2016 19:07
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After finishing this game I think a major issue I have with it (and the level grind in general) is failing in the Darkest Dungeon is just absolutely brutal - you do level up heroes faster for failing, but automatically losing champion level heroes and possibly trinkets for loving up in there (a very likely scenario), is harsh as hell, especially when you lose a particular class. I needed a man at arms for the second darkest dungeon mission, lost mine in the first attempt, then had to spend an hour or two grinding/leveling a new one up from veteran level. I guess one way around it is just to meatgrind your way in there with sub-optimal teams to scout it out first, but even then you're still losing huge gold/time investments in your teams. I feel like the second and third mission in particular would have been completely brutal and unfair if I hadn't spoiled myself on the map layout because I didn't want to put up with that poo poo. Nakar posted:I think the right solution is to lower the amount of XP that Veteran/Champion dungeons grant but add some kind of progression mechanic that accelerates leveling after you've passed the point in the game where you'd be doing those dungeons primarily. No idea how to implement that in a way that's fair and non-exploitable. I actually think the solution would be to add a 'promote' button instead of heroes automatically leveling up. You can have heroes accrue exp or not accrue exp until they hit the next tier, but it would allow you to keep certain teams together and actually run dungeons. I had a huge issue with my abominations becoming unusable because my occultist outleveled them, for example. Operant fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Feb 2, 2016 |
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Feb 2, 2016 19:08
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Not pictured: PD who cured bleed before damage was applied.
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Feb 2, 2016 19:08
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Internet Kraken posted:The only boss I'm never going to fight again is the Formless Flesh. I think the rank 3 version is straight up unfair. It does insane damage and crits on a regular basis. I tried fighting it 3 seperate times and each time the same thing happened; ridiculous crits at the start of the fight and the flesh going full offense. Even with the optimal party comp for slaughtering it with DOTs still can't kill it fast enough to keep people out of death's door. I used two HM and saved the scooby snacks for the boss and had a MAA with prot and hp trinkets guarding and it was easier than the first time i fought it in the easy dungeon.
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Feb 2, 2016 19:09
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unfortunately he's only got occ/jes/abo behind him. bandaid in the backpack tho gently caress YEAH still, that's some totally bonkers bleeding for only round 2
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Feb 2, 2016 19:10
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Nakar posted:I think the right solution is to lower the amount of XP that Veteran/Champion dungeons grant but add some kind of progression mechanic that accelerates leveling after you've passed the point in the game where you'd be doing those dungeons primarily. No idea how to implement that in a way that's fair and non-exploitable.
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Feb 2, 2016 19:13
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MacheteZombie posted:Not pictured: PD who cured bleed before damage was applied. taking a pd to the weald... boy, i dunno
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Feb 2, 2016 19:13
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MacheteZombie posted:Not pictured: PD who cured bleed before damage was applied. Bringing a plague doctor to the weald?!
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Feb 2, 2016 19:14
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Not that big of a detriment.
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Feb 2, 2016 19:16
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Bad Seafood posted:I think if you've defeated both bosses in a particular area on a particular difficulty, all future expeditions in that area on that difficulty should net a small but noticeable resolve EXP bonus. All of these are bandaids on the problem of the repeated content that's level gated. I'm not sure there is a simple elegant solution anymore, since they baked this into the game's design. It's definitely bit me in the rear end, I had my roster filled, with the majority at 3-4, and when I went to do the last two tier 1 bosses I hadn't fought, I realized I couldn't, because I didn't have enough low level people. That's just... dumb. I'm not really convinced that triplicating the content was a good decision either, am I having any more fun in the higher level dungeons than the lower level ones? Not really. Not any less mind you, but it feels about the same, with the added 'bonus' that if I need a replacement for a certain tier I have to level them specifically to that spot, which also feels dumb.
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Feb 2, 2016 19:16
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Nakar posted:I think the right solution is to lower the amount of XP that Veteran/Champion dungeons grant but add some kind of progression mechanic that accelerates leveling after you've passed the point in the game where you'd be doing those dungeons primarily. No idea how to implement that in a way that's fair and non-exploitable. Lowering the amount of XP Champion dungeons won't do anything but change the amount of time it takes to get from level 5 to level 6, which I'm fine with being super-short. I guess it would also nerf the 'send lowbies into champion dungeons for turboleveling' thing, but I don't think that's what you're talking about. I'm sort of happy with Veteran dungeons being something that you can breeze through xp-wise. In my current game I only extended it slightly by focusing on leveling up a new team to catch up. The way it currently stands you will outlevel Veteran content quickly provided you can successfully complete missions. The game is naturally pushing you outside of your comfort zone, so that on a strategic level one's game (as a new player) can look like the following: step 1: have trouble with apprentice dungeons, spend time with disposable guys while learning basic game mechanics step 2: start succeeding at apprentice dungeons, until you notice that you have idle level 3 heroes step 3: have trouble with veteran dungeons, spend some time honing tactics/compositions while building hamlet upgrades and broadening your roster step 4: start succeeding at veteran dungeons, until you have idle level 5 heroes step 5: get reamed by champion dungeons because the game hates you, continue to work on getting upgrades/roster/player skill step 6: get to a point where you are largely successful in champion dungeons (at this point you can make an absurd amount of gold) step 7: darkest dungeon Accelerating the XP curve in the way the devs are doing it has two discernable effects from this top-down view. The first is their intended effect of reducing the level 6 hero grind if you lose like twenty dudes to the darkest dungeon in step 7. The one that people are upset about is that step 4 is now super-short. My argument is that the even-numbered steps are less compelling gameplay experiences than the odd-numbered ones. The game is making the judgement that if you are able to get a hero to level 5, then you need to prioritize thinking about champion dungeons. By the time I started embarking in champion dungeons, I had completed four apprentice bosses and two veteran bosses. This felt weird, but it worked out in the end that I was always working on new talent (sometimes to replace lost talent, of course), and the new talent could take on the remaining bosses just fine. In fact, I unlocked my first champion boss many weeks before I felt comfortable enough to take it on. e: fwiw, I think that as the game stands right now the 'my dudes level too fast' problem is a lot less essential than the fact that it takes forever to upgrade your town properly. Perhaps some of the issues would be resolved if they unlocked bosses faster or tinkered with the loving deed grind. I'm basically disappointed with how the hamlet economy hasn't really changed since Early Access. I think that gating away skill and blacksmith upgrades feels quite unfair. I would be okay if you needed a token amount to unlock basic functionalities but the expensive upgrades should not feel so vital to grind for. I'm totally okay with the fact that my remaining nomad wagon/survivalist upgrades are hella expensive, since those upgrades are save me gold, but won't lock me out of DD viability. I would be happier if they made the level N smith/guild upgrades cheaper, but made the upgrades substantially more expensive unless you spent a large number of heirlooms on the efficiency upgrades. e2: I'm not even sure that switching the gate from 'deed-grinding' to 'gold-grinding' would be all that effective, honestly. I'm of half a mind to say that any strategic hamlet-level obstacles to doing higher-level missions other than 'insufficient player skill' should be toned down/removed. That does go against the intended progressive feel of the hamlet though so I'm basically conflicted about the whole thing. FreeKillB fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Feb 2, 2016 |
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Feb 2, 2016 19:22
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The places are definitely pretty different at the medium difficulty (notably, the Big Assholes of every zone start showing up, with the exception of the Ruins, who is just a two skeletons in a big suit), and the final difficulty is a way to play with the limiters off, so to speak -- you have cultists stressing for 30 a hit and bone royalty with 30 dodge. This isn't to say that being unable to kill level 1 bosses at level 3 isn't bad, but more to say each difficulty level does feel like a significant step up from the latter.
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Feb 2, 2016 19:22
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Chomp8645 posted:The way they are handling resolve XP is misguided and it shows in people rapidly out leveling bosses and the guild/blacksmith for most of the game but then having to grind replacement teams for the final dungeon. Yeah honestly I kinda felt like they'd add a resolve bonus to various hamlet upgrades or something, so as your hamlet progressed, badasses would be easier to build. And it could potentially make a couple of things like the survivalist more attractive to upgrade. Incidentally you can do a file edit to allow dudes to adventure down if you want, and iirc you can also mess with upgrades. I personally would just take the deed cost off the stagecoach entirely.
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Feb 2, 2016 19:33
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paranoid randroid posted:taking a pd to the weald... boy, i dunno Blinding powder and disorienting blast make them good entirely on their own there. The ability to clear blight/bleeds is just a pleasant side benefit. Their speed lets them get the first move on pretty much everything. With their class very rare trinket they can two turn stun giants without too much trouble. Give it a shot you might be surprised at how much they help out.
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Feb 2, 2016 19:35
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Phrasing posted:
Bleed + dps + 1 or 2 stuns.
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Feb 2, 2016 19:37
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realistically even if you have a full roster of guys all at the same level, beating bosses and dungeons will inevitably lead to them all leveling up. Level up enough of them and of course certain Rank bosses will not be viable for them to actually fight anymore. The only way to get those done is to have a bigger roster, or have other characters die. No matter what you're eventually going to lock yourself out of fighting a boss at SOME point til later. I've been fighting Rank 2s and 3s now but haven't had the chance to even face the Sodden/Soggy crew ever. I'm sure that a few Champion and Darkest Dungeon tries will afford me that opportunity later, though.
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Feb 2, 2016 19:37
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arbalests and grave robbers are my go-to weald pals, on account of the fact they can kill those loving spore launcher pricks in the first couple turns god i hate those assholes
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Feb 2, 2016 19:38
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Tthe basic problem is that "outleveling the low-level content" and "getting dudes ready for the Darkest Dungeon" are in conflict, as far as ideal leveling speed goes. For the latter, you want to be able to pick a guy up, do one or two runs, and be ready to go. For the former, you want to have some time to play around. I've said this before, but I think a good solution would be to have an expensive upgrade to the Stagecoach that lets you get resolve level 1/2/3 guys, possibly even level 4, but which is gated behind clearing boss tiers. This would down a lot of the grind on replacing Darkest Dungeon teams, but doesn't accelerate you through early-game content any faster.
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Feb 2, 2016 19:41
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Glidergun posted:Tthe basic problem is that "outleveling the low-level content" and "getting dudes ready for the Darkest Dungeon" are in conflict, as far as ideal leveling speed goes. For the latter, you want to be able to pick a guy up, do one or two runs, and be ready to go. For the former, you want to have some time to play around. Hmm pretty sensible solution but nope let's just take that level 4 guy who already is locked out of blacksmith/guild upgrades for want of heirlooms and slam him to the finish line lol!!!! - Red Hook
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Feb 2, 2016 19:47
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Feb 2, 2016 19:50
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MacheteZombie posted:Not pictured: PD who cured bleed before damage was applied. Not pictured best class in the goddamn game.
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Feb 2, 2016 19:51
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victrix posted:All of these are bandaids on the problem of the repeated content that's level gated. I'm not sure there is a simple elegant solution anymore, since they baked this into the game's design. Personally I enjoyed the sense of progression. The game's got a pretty nice difficulty curve going on, and adjusting to progressively harder iterations of its content is a rewarding process. It's also amusing, once you're used to champion missions, to go back with an apprentice level team with all your best trinkets and just utterly demolish the dungeon. My biggest beef has always been that it takes way too many missions to unlock veteran/champion bosses--even before they sped up leveling, you would easily reach 16 fully upgraded level 6 characters before you clear out 100% of the bosses, so you would wind up running missions just to boost your progress bar to get to the last few bosses. This made a little bit of sense, in that it encourages players to at least partially raise up some backups to their main 16 so that they won't be starting from scratch when/if they blow a DD mission, but this isn't really communicated to players very well. The level cap on apprentice/veteran bosses tells players "you need to expand your roster"; the interminably long progress bar on champion bosses does not. Plus, as you start to get above 16 characters the process of raising them gets less satisfying--there's 14 classes, so once you get past one of each class + a few extras of your favorites it starts to get more monotonous and less enjoyable.
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Feb 2, 2016 20:02
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Personally I want them to lower the gold cost of the later weapon/armor upgrades.
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Feb 2, 2016 20:12
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It's also annoying to have like, 5 fresh recruits, because you can't level them all equally and one or more of them are gonna be left out to dry when everyone else levels past apprentice.
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Feb 2, 2016 20:15
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 haha that's pretty cool. drink your OJ. what else is behind a google image search for "darkest dungeon plague doctor"   uhhh   uhhhhhhh  graverobber no 
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Feb 2, 2016 20:20
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thats a really weird place to keep your vagina
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Feb 2, 2016 20:33
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What if... they made it so that a level up is something that you have to actively "confirm"? For example, you have a Lvl 2 hero who earns enough XP to move to Lvl 3, but instead of happening automatically, there's a "Level Up?" button that you have to click to make it happen. He'll remain at Lvl 2, not gaining any more XP or bonuses until you do so. Maybe there's some additional penalty, like +10% stress gain or they can't receive any positive quirks (representative of the fact that they're not "growing"), as long as they have a pending level up. Moacher fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Feb 2, 2016 |
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Feb 2, 2016 21:06
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I mean, I get the idea: Your heroes are getting too strong for the content that you may be comfortable with and the gold curve doesn't let you go into the next tier 100% prepared. I just think there's too much content at each tier (8 bosses!) to progress through it "naturally," which encourages gamey things like "fire everybody over and over until you have the town fully upgraded and tons of gold for an A-Team and all Apprentice/Veteran bosses killed, then start filling out your roster with top-tier champions." Because that's the conservative, sensible approach, when what they seem to want is for you to progress toward the top tier and stay there. Something about it is just off, at least a little bit, and if you play the way they want you to play it's ridiculously punishing... but at the same time you expect that, because you're unprepared... but then the best and most sensible way to prepare feels like cheating the game systems.
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Feb 2, 2016 21:17
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