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nm posted:Burns county replies to ppn Harney County posted:PPN’s third grievance is “Immediate resignation of Judge Steve Grasty, Sheriff David Ward,County commissioner Pete Runnels, and County commissioner Dan Nichols.” 
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Feb 3, 2016 01:16
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Branis posted:Couple weeks of 23 hours a day and he's gonna be painting with his poop. So...still an improvement.
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Feb 3, 2016 01:20
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Voyager I posted:If Cliven ever gives the law a similar opportunity you can bet he'll be in jail in short order. Ok, but at what point does actual, real life poo poo like his ranch standoff and Malheur rise to the same level of concern as hypothetical bloodshed? And I'm not real moved by peoples asssertions that being afraid of being arrested is some terrible cloud on Cliven. If you offer anybody house arrest or prison they'll take house arrest.
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Feb 3, 2016 01:22
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Ok, but at what point does actual, real life poo poo like his ranch standoff and Malheur rise to the same level of concern as hypothetical bloodshed? I spent 15 pages explaining this to you last time and I don't feel inclined to do it all over again. This isn't about making Cliven feel like he is punished, this is about the state making responsible decisions to minimize the amount of innocent people that get killed. Your bloodlust is not helpful and I am grateful that the FBI is taking a responsible appriach. The best way to handle this issl to minimize the potential for violence, not to go assert that the Fed swings the biggest dick in Bartertown.
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Feb 3, 2016 01:27
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Prester Jane posted:The best way to handle this issl to minimize the potential for violence, not to go assert that the Fed swings the biggest dick in Bartertown. The best thing about having the biggest dick in Bartertown is that you don't have to prove it to anyone for any reason.
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Feb 3, 2016 01:28
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SedanChair posted:Radical Cleric Cliven Bundy Issues Orders to Militants It really is amazing, and eye-opening, being on this side of a story we only see about those sand countries out there in the strange, far-odd land of the Muslims. I hate it when I meet people who have no sympathy for the civilians caught up in those. And makes me wonder how much it even effects their daily lives; After all, this occupation has no effect on me. It's fascinating, and I have opinions about it, but I'm nowhere near these people or people like them. And yet, people outside the country must think we're insane to let this go on.
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Feb 3, 2016 01:30
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Discendo Vox posted:
I saw one of those in San Diego a few weeks ago. Crazy rear end religion, but drat, they know how to make churches.
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Feb 3, 2016 01:41
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It's the one part of the belief system I don't understand attacking. (the rest, I really don't care that much about)
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Prester Jane posted:I spent 15 pages explaining this to you last time and I don't feel inclined to do it all over again. This isn't about making Cliven feel like he is punished, this is about the state making responsible decisions to minimize the amount of innocent people that get killed. Your bloodlust is not helpful and I am grateful that the FBI is taking a responsible appriach. The question I asked doesn't have a real answer and you and the last dickface who deployed the "I explaaaaaained this to you" condescension lines aren't the be all end all you think you are. I'm disagreeing that letting Clivens situation go on for decades to the point of the ranch stand off and malheur are responsible moves, and I'm talking about real things that have happened, not the maybe/probably/possibly scenarios that DO need to be considered, but imo, not so heavily as we have lately. Intel&Sebastian fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Feb 3, 2016 |
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Feb 3, 2016 01:42
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It's a popular thing for parents to tell kids around here that it's disneyland.
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Feb 3, 2016 01:42
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akadajet posted:It's a popular thing for parents to tell kids around here that it's disneyland. Yeah, I got that story from my parents 20-odd years ago.
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Feb 3, 2016 01:51
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Prester Jane posted:I spent 15 pages explaining this to you last time and I don't feel inclined to do it all over again. This isn't about making Cliven feel like he is punished, this is about the state making responsible decisions to minimize the amount of innocent people that get killed. Your bloodlust is not helpful and I am grateful that the FBI is taking a responsible appriach. It's also about removing an instigator of violent uprising from his position of being able to do that. Bundy isn't some crank writing letters to the editor. He has conspired to obstruct federal agencies twice in the last two years, and there is no reason to believe he will stop. He has committed crimes, he will continue to commit crimes, the approrpiate place for him is prison. It is probably not prudent to move on him while Oregon is still hot, but I think the Burns situation has demonstrated the shortcomings in the hope he'll just go away approach. The only way to prevent violence from these people is to simply give them all federal land and disband the BLM, USFWS, NPS and USFS. And of course then they'd probably get mad and hang the sheriffs too. They have demonstrated they will conjure a martyr out of thin air. There is no amount of restraint that will calm them down or prevent them from feeling aggrieved. We allowed this monster to fester and grow through two decades of being afraid of our shadows when it comes to rural whites with guns. It's time to start changing that. That's not bloodlust. That's not irresponsible. The bloodlust is in the people saying if you enforce the law on us we'll shoot you. The irresponsibility is in telling hundreds of people to descend on Burns for an "operation." They are entitled to the same due process and fourth amendment right to be free from unreasonable seizure as everyone else, but they are as subject to government coercion as everyone else, too.
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Feb 3, 2016 01:51
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Kazak_Hstan posted:It's also about removing an instigator of violent uprising from his position of being able to do that. Bundy isn't some crank writing letters to the editor. He has conspired to obstruct federal agencies twice in the last two years, and there is no reason to believe he will stop. He has committed crimes, he will continue to commit crimes, the approrpiate place for him is prison. It is probably not prudent to move on him while Oregon is still hot, but I think the Burns situation has demonstrated the shortcomings in the hope he'll just go away approach. Well said. I keep hearing these clowns scream about their rights which are derived from the government, but never their responsibilities to that government.
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Feb 3, 2016 01:56
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Wait, if Cliven is surrounded by armed guards at his ranch at all times, and supposedly can't leave the ranch, why hasn't the FBI cut off supplies and any form of communication with the outside world?
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Feb 3, 2016 01:57
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I also didn't see an answer: how many malheurs and ranch stand offs does one man get until we do anything? Is it indefinite? Can a guy trade life in prison for a house arrest situation if he can afford NV land and a couple of nutty bodyguards? Does Lavoy count? Or do we only take away the "possible bloodshed" label when they kill a working man? Talk poo poo all you want but at least answer that much. I was honestly asking before the threads super sheriffs declared my speech unconstitutional.
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Feb 3, 2016 01:59
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Mr Interweb posted:Wait, if Cliven is surrounded by armed guards at his ranch at all times, and supposedly can't leave the ranch, why hasn't the FBI cut off supplies and any form of communication with the outside world? I mean he hasn't been charged with a crime and he's on his own land, so the first step would be charging him.
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Feb 3, 2016 02:05
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Kazak_Hstan posted:I mean he hasn't been charged with a crime and he's on his own land, so the first step would be charging him. Um..wouldn't repeatedly threatening to kill federal agents and being delinquent on $1 million to the government be something they might have discussed at one point?
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Feb 3, 2016 02:08
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Mr Interweb posted:Wait, if Cliven is surrounded by armed guards at his ranch at all times, and supposedly can't leave the ranch, why hasn't the FBI cut off supplies and any form of communication with the outside world? This is their main source of evidence.
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Feb 3, 2016 02:09
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SlipUp posted:This is their main source of evidence. Against who?
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Feb 3, 2016 02:13
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Mr Interweb posted:Um..wouldn't repeatedly threatening to kill federal agents and being delinquent on $1 million to the government be something they might have discussed at one point? Yeah I think he's committed a bunch of crimes and ought to be charged. But as of today it hasn't happened, so he's pretty much in the clear to hang out with hicks in Hicksville.
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Feb 3, 2016 02:14
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Mr Interweb posted:Against who? The guy who very publicly organized a militia response to the BLM where the newsmedia got multiple professional photographs of people pointing weapons at federal agents. Whose sons traveled interstate to terrorize a small town and get their friend killed playing army man. Intel&Sebastian fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Feb 3, 2016 |
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Feb 3, 2016 02:19
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Again, we've been over this. Charging someone begins the timer on timely trial requirements. The primary concern limiting response is harm to third parties and creating new militia supporters.
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Feb 3, 2016 02:21
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I'm not shocked that he's not charged, personally. I am shocked that he didn't get busted at some point before the ranch standoff.
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Feb 3, 2016 02:25
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nm posted:Burns county replies to ppn Heh. I like how they quote directly from the poorly-written letter, misspellings and all.
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Feb 3, 2016 02:28
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Speedy trial is a fair point, but if the DoJ doesn't have a chargeable case at this point then wtf? I dunno, like I've said a few times in reserving judgment on evaluating tactics and strategy until this is over. But Im pretty comfortable with the conclusion, in principle, that everyone involved needs to be prosecuted or this shot is just going to keep happening.
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Feb 3, 2016 02:34
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It wasn't directly linked above, but Here is one reason that Pete won't be making bail anytime soon.
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Feb 3, 2016 02:45
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Ugh. Just heard a piece on npr in which they interviewed a lady in burns ... from Nebraska, who was "surprised" that the people of burns didn't want them there. She hadn't heard that the people didn't like them. Then she promptly questioned whether they were actual residents or if they were crisis actors. ... BITCH YOU'RE FROM NEBRASKA. GO HOME. E: spelling Rodenthar Drothman fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Feb 3, 2016 |
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Feb 3, 2016 02:51
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Winkle-Daddy posted:I think when they make a movie about this they need H. Jon Benjamin to play Ammon. Eugene Mirman as Ryan
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Feb 3, 2016 02:57
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We desperately need some sort of human powered assembly line resurgence so people like this have something else to do during the day. Spread some more of that pentagon welfare money the gently caress around at least.
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Feb 3, 2016 03:00
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egon_beeblebrox posted:Eugene Mirman as Ryan Doc Hammer as David Fry
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Feb 3, 2016 03:01
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Subterfrugal posted:It wasn't directly linked above, but Here is one reason that Pete won't be making bail anytime soon. DURING KATRINA WHERE WAS THE 240,.000 PASTORS WHEN THEIR PEOPLE NEEDED THEM? THE GOVERNMENT PULLED THEM ASIDE BEFOREHAND AND TOLD THEM WHAT BIBLE VERSES TO USE IN THEIR DEFENSE...ROMANS.......GUYS ITS BEGUN
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Feb 3, 2016 03:01
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egon_beeblebrox posted:Eugene Mirman as Ryan Ryan Bundy seems too scrawny for that to work. Maybe Ed Norton? The trial is going to be across the street from where I work. I hope it's open to the public.
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Feb 3, 2016 03:03
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Intel&Sebastian posted:The question I asked doesn't have a real answer and you and the last dickface who deployed the "I explaaaaaained this to you" condescension lines aren't the be all end all you think you are. Ironically I took quuuiiiiiiite a bit of poo poo for predicting the current situation on these boards about six months ago. (I was run out of the Marriage Equality thread when the whole Kim Davis thing was going down because I described in detail the threat posed by these militia groups.) Yeah, I'm not omniscient, but I know what I am talking about with these extremist groups and I have a pretty good track record at this point to back my analysis up. Let me try to make something really clear, Cliven Bundy is not the primary cause here. Cliven Bundy is not that the disease- he is simply a symptom of a much larger societal issue. Situations like this have their root cause in the cynical political machinations that have formed the the primary basis of the GOP political strategy for the past half century. If you cut down Cliven Bundy their will be another one before Tuesday at lunch time, that's just the reality of the situation. And as is typical when you try to cut down a religious figure with state force the person who steps up to replace them will probably be more extreme. If you want to talk about things that need to be ended in order to prevent situations like this from happening in the future then we need as a society to take a close look at programs like Accelerated Christian Education or ABEKA. (Both of these represent politically connected school curriculum's popular with these groups that are designed to produce obedient drones for the Republican Party and have a side effect of creating extremely dangerous and chaotic zealots when reality does not line up with their preconceived notions.) Unfortunately programs like these are extremely well politically connected in this country and not yet at this time on the public radar. To prevent and reduce situations like this from occurring what we need to do is cut off the source of the fundamentalist zealots- if you take out their leaders all you do is provide validation for their narrative. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Feb 3, 2016 |
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Feb 3, 2016 03:05
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Mr Interweb posted:Against who? Cliven Bundy. If you read the charges against Ammon Bundy and co, the main source of evidence is their own words spewed out all over the internet. The FBI were gathering evidence and getting their charges together, while giving the militants as much room as possible to incriminate themselves (they could have shut down cellphone access to the refuge at any time). There's no reason to believe they aren't doing the same with Cliven.
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Feb 3, 2016 03:07
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Cliven Bundy. If you read the charges against Ammon Bundy and co, the main source of evidence is their own words spewed out all over the internet. The FBI were gathering evidence and getting their charges together, while giving the militants as much room as possible to incriminate themselves (they could have shut down cellphone access to the refuge at any time). There's no reason to believe they aren't doing the same with Cliven. Sure, but what I don't get is why it's taking so long to go after Cliven, when his sons were taken down in a month. Isn't two years more than enough time to establish that yes, Cliven is an rear end in a top hat who needs action to be taken upon by the government?
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Feb 3, 2016 03:18
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Mr Interweb posted:Sure, but what I don't get is why it's taking so long to go after Cliven, when his sons were taken down in a month. Isn't two years more than enough time to establish that yes, Cliven is an rear end in a top hat who needs action to be taken upon by the government? I'm not the FBI so I don't know for certain, but my understanding is that Cliven's ranch is basically militiaville now and you probably couldn't take him in without a big ole honking shootout. He is also slowly going broke as a result of the lines leaving him unable to obtain financing or liquidate any of his assets. Their is a reason Ryan Bundy has a public defender, and that reason is that Cliven doesn't have the money to get him a defense attorney. (Ammon has enough money to pay for his own) Cliven is going broke in the midst of a sweltering desert and serves as a honeypot for plenty of other idiots as well as a steady drain on the limited financial resources of the liberty movement. So while it is not great that Cliven is trying to throw fuel on the fire here, hia current situation is untenable in the long term and doing steady damage to the Liberty movement.
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Feb 3, 2016 03:27
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nm posted:Burns county replies to ppn While I'm pretty amused at this, I'm not sure directly responding to their nonsense paperwork is the best idea. In doing so you give them a sense of legitimacy in the power of their group and their documentation. Having released this information or repeated it where appropriate in a more general public press release might have been a better idea.
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Feb 3, 2016 03:27
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Winkle-Daddy posted:Ryan Bundy seems too scrawny for that to work. Maybe Ed Norton? Christian Bale.
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Feb 3, 2016 03:30
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Discendo Vox posted:Again, we've been over this. Charging someone begins the timer on timely trial requirements. The primary concern limiting response is harm to third parties and creating new militia supporters. How does this square with people having warrants for arrest issued, which then pend for years before the person is finally found/arrested?
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Feb 3, 2016 03:44
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Discendo Vox posted:A couple reminders from sufficiently far back in the thread that they will help inform present discussion: This is way off, statute of limitations for federal crimes is almost entirely 5-10 years. Only violent crimes (murder, rape) or crimes involving heads of state/members of congress have longer federal statutes of limitations. Nevada might have different SoL on the books, but I haven't read through those recently.
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Feb 3, 2016 03:45
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I dont give a flying gently caress how hard Cliven has it in his own home or how poor he is. He's supposed to be in jail and he owes the govt a million dollars. If he played by the same rules everyone else has to he'd be much poorer and much sadder with his surroundings. And as much as I appreciate your expertise with militia sovcit nutters, I am not at all convinced that THE HORROR is such a sure thing that the nation needs to back away from Cliven for decades. He should've been dealt with the first time he threatened the BLM.
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Feb 3, 2016 03:54
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