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Epic High Five posted:Roll in with an MRAP with a firehose that sprays that expanding riot control foam stuff and just lock everybody in a Styrofoam prison I think at that point it's more a risk of them shooting each other rather than any LEO or civilian. Fuckers'll just start spraying and praying.
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Feb 5, 2016 01:17
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Thump! posted:I'll agree that they should've been clapped up earlier while they were out and about, however this may have been the first opportunity for them to grab the whole bushel at once. Until the recent arrest, leaders of the organization were not off the compound at the same time, and usually travelled in larger convoys. In particular, though, leaders of the occupiers were usually surrounded by news media and traveled in a convoy with them, effectively using them as cover. At one point Ammon tried to meet with and negotiate with the FBI, but backed out when the FBI refused to let the media accompany him to the meeting. If he had assented, he may have been arrested- although the risk that other militants would have taken this as a show of force is hard to evaluate.
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Feb 5, 2016 01:17
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Kazak_Hstan posted:
Oh my. I'm starting to think that this Ammon Bundy fellow is a bit of a prick.
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Feb 5, 2016 01:19
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Yes it is. Also your solution to the situation in Malheur is to time travel to before it happened and lay siege to Cliven Bundy. Also laying siege to him would not have caused violence because reasons. Exit: You are not arguing I'm good faith, you are just arguing that the situation in Malheur could have been handled better........somehow, but you are not really sure how. You are just insisting that it could have been done better over and over and have not provided any spacific examples of specific actions that could have been taken. You are also claiming that a remarkably succesful law enforcement operation is just confirmation bias became it disproves your narrative. I ask again, and urge you to be specific. What could the FBI have done to end the situation in Malheur more quickly? Please don't talk about traveling to the past and shooting Cliven in his crib, once the situation in Malheur started, what should the FBI have done instead of playing the long game? Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 01:20
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Epic High Five posted:Roll in with an MRAP with a firehose that sprays that expanding riot control foam stuff and just lock everybody in a Styrofoam prison Ah yes the Hulkbuster route.
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Feb 5, 2016 01:22
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Kazak_Hstan posted:
This lawyer doesn't seem to care about bundy winning his case. Not that he stands a chance anyways. Guess this will help bring in those wingnut welfare dollars though.
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Feb 5, 2016 01:23
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I'm not seeing any refutation there. And yes, I answered a silly hypothetical with a silly hypothetical. Just because I'm not a FBI director of ops like you doesn't mean I don't get to comment on the matter or have an opinion. I give the fbi wide berth, and even with that considered, I stand by the assertion that there is a better way to do it than Malhuer. You disagree? Thats ok by me.
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Feb 5, 2016 01:27
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Ammon, my retainer for a case of this size is $300,000 so I suggest you start shaking the cash tree vigorously.
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Feb 5, 2016 01:31
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I&S the only options they have when dealing with this bs is to a)kill them all and risk the lives of your agents or b) wait until an opportunity comes up like the entire leadership leaving their defensive position and driving straight into your roadblock. you are straight up stupid and are really mad about how dumb you are hth. literally putting your fingers in your ears screaming LALALALA like these rednecks do when people who are smarter than them say why their poo poo won't stick. this same stuff has been bought up like 20+ times itt
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Feb 5, 2016 01:31
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Prester Jane posted:
Yes I am. Because I don't agree that it was "remarkably successful", and I would venture to guess the governor of OR and many resident of Burns would agree. The arrests were, many parts were, as a whole? Imo, nope. We can and should do better and the fact that a paper pushing weedhead doesn't have the exact tactical plan for doing so doesn't mean it doesn't exist or is clearly needed. There's downsides here, they're real, and they matter. I believe the police and feds are smart enough, equipped enough and capable enough to not let Malheurs go on for that long, escalate so quickly and affect neighboring towns so hard. And gosh darn it, people like them. Intel&Sebastian fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 01:33
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Discendo Vox posted:Until the recent arrest, leaders of the organization were not off the compound at the same time, and usually travelled in larger convoys. In particular, though, leaders of the occupiers were usually surrounded by news media and traveled in a convoy with them, effectively using them as cover. At one point Ammon tried to meet with and negotiate with the FBI, but backed out when the FBI refused to let the media accompany him to the meeting. If he had assented, he may have been arrested- although the risk that other militants would have taken this as a show of force is hard to evaluate. Yeah, that's the angle I'm figuring. We really don't have all the details on the situation and likely won't for some time until someone releases a book about it or the trial goes public, but odds are this was the first real chance they had to arrest them without the media all over their dicks or 50 other mouthbreathers with ARs.
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Feb 5, 2016 01:33
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Yes I am. annoying a town of people vs having the people currently protesting coming in and shooting the same town of people cause the big bad gubbament went ham and slaughtered everyone at the refuge going into arrest them. you think the rednecks wouldnt shoot at the fbi leading to a firefight where everyone there dies despite saying however many times thats all they want to do??? poo poo situation but so far this has been the best outcome from a group of armed militants occupying federal land, with confirmed rifles and reports of explosives.
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Feb 5, 2016 01:36
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Kazak_Hstan posted:
Hahahaha. This motherfucker.
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Feb 5, 2016 01:37
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It doesn't seem all that wild or controversial to suggest the initial reaction to the standoff was a bit of a fumbling "well guys what the gently caress?" followed by the formulation of a pretty good plan. That's about as good as you can hope for in a situation like this. There will likely be exhaustive inquiries into this, and we will have an opportunity to see what was smart and what was dumb in detail.
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Feb 5, 2016 01:38
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Yes I am. So things should have been done differently, but don't ask you how, you don't know, your not an expert on anything. Funny then that the experts disagree with you and have a track record of success that they can point to. Edit: Sorry for dragging this out, I'm done with this derail. It has become too circular. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 01:38
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A Saucy Bratwurst posted:annoying a town of people vs having the people currently protesting coming in and shooting the same town of people cause the big bad gubbament went ham and slaughtered everyone at the refuge going into arrest them. you think the rednecks wouldnt shoot at the fbi leading to a firefight where everyone there dies despite saying however many times thats all they want to do??? 1) I wonder how many other people here would label all the activity in burns as just an annoyance. 2) cool fan fic, if I was as good at imagination I would write one where Ammon and Co are weiners who cave at the first real show of force, maybe a armored truck? And then walk out peacefully and apologize. Weeeeeeee!
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Feb 5, 2016 01:42
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I am also fine with leaving this argument at the point where PJ declares herself an expert and casts a pox on all who aren't.
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Feb 5, 2016 01:44
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Kazak_Hstan posted:It doesn't seem all that wild or controversial to suggest the initial reaction to the standoff was a bit of a fumbling "well guys what the gently caress?" followed by the formulation of a pretty good plan. That's about as good as you can hope for in a situation like this. Again, it's worth emphasizing that when the militants occupied the compound, there were already a bunch of other sympatheticarmed militia and right-wing protesters in town. There was never an opportunity to stop this early without arresting these people weeks in advance of the original Hammond protest. Even with the decapitation arrest, we're still in a very unstable situation because there are still a bunch of broadly affiliated militia groups in town.
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Feb 5, 2016 01:44
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Above: good point, maybe there was no great option at the time in a situation like that. I still wonder about the continuing tactics after the kickoff.A Saucy Bratwurst posted:
Can't argue that part. However I will be willing to bet this happens again this year and the response is better and quicker. Intel&Sebastian fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 01:45
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Intel&Sebastian posted:I am also fine with leaving this argument at the point where PJ declares herself an expert and casts a pox on all who aren't. I'm not an expert nor have I claimed to be. The experts are working for the FBI. I'm a crank with an unusual insight that has contributed to the thread. Expert I am not, nor shall I ever be. Also I have debated with quite a few people itt and not cast a pox upon them. I have not personally attacked you at any point, I have just stated that you are wrong and explained why I perceive that to be. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 01:49
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Ok if you're going with the ol appeal to authority can I at least get a name or a link to the person refuting me? I considered it a personal attack when people were telling me I'm dumb and can't have an opinion because they "spent 15 pages explaining" to my dumb rear end who didn't see the light. If that wasn't what was meant then cest la vie. Intel&Sebastian fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 01:52
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Prester Jane posted:I'm not an expert nor have I claimed to be. The experts are working for the FBI. I'm a crank with an unusual insight that has contributed to the thread. Expert I am not, nor shall I ever be. Your contributions have been welcome but seriously you need to get your head out of your rear end a bit if you think that you haven't portrayed yourself as a voice of authority on the matter.
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Feb 5, 2016 01:55
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quote:
quote:
quote:
http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/occupiers-not-in-listed-indictment-could-face-charges-/ I just want to roll up a newspaper and rub their faces in the pee spot on the floor.
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Feb 5, 2016 01:59
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Kazak_Hstan posted:http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/occupiers-not-in-listed-indictment-could-face-charges-/ Maybe when they get out in 10-15, they'll do some good by protesting the brutality of the prison industrial complex.
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Feb 5, 2016 02:02
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My opinion that they could have done better isn't stemming from me thinking they did an awful job (they didn't). It stems from me thinking that the FBI is better than a 3 week fiasco that prompted the governor of the state to buck them and say "whaaat the fuuuuuuuuck" publicly. No I don't know exactly what changes, I don't know exactlt what they did, neither does anyone else. I do know exactly how good the FBI is, and in my opinion, even considering the very very large gap of info that COULD EMPHASIS COULD AS IN NOT "HAS" BUT COULD invalidate my entire thinking....I think they can do it better, yes.
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Feb 5, 2016 02:04
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Thump! posted:I think at that point it's more a risk of them shooting each other rather than any LEO or civilian. Fuckers'll just start spraying and praying. Ahah! That's where the real cleverness comes in. The secret is to have the MRAP blasting this as it rolls up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zbi0XmGtMw The militants will think it's a party bus and they can be immobilized during the ensuing spontaneous dance party
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Feb 5, 2016 02:04
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quote:Linnell served as a cook for the militants and took part in the occupation for more than two weeks. She said she’s not worried about being arrested. “I didn’t do anything at all. I mean, what are they going to do? Charge me for being in the kitchen? Are they going to bust me for cooking?” - someone about to do a fantastic cosplay of Randy Marsh being arrested at little league games.
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Feb 5, 2016 02:06
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Ok if you're going with the ol appeal to authority can I at least get a name or a link to the person refuting me? Time: Why the feds have not ended the Oregon Militia standoff. quote:Yet so far there has been little visible law enforcement response. And while that may frustrate or confuse many Americans, it’s probably an indication that law enforcement is handling a delicate situation correctly. Salon: Sorry liberals, the FBI was right to wait before taking them out. quote:
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Feb 5, 2016 02:10
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To me, whether or not the FBI has handled this 'well' has always been a question of when did they roll the Sovcit sheriff from the other county. If they got to him early on and had him lure out the bundy bunch for takedown, then bravo and well played. Situation was unfavorable, but at least they had a plan. If they found out about the meet after the fact, and then scrambled to take advantage then good job capitalizing, but wtf was their game plan? Wait and hope they didn't start shooting or lynching people? There was not even a token effort to contain or even inconvenience these chucklefucks before the decapitation arrest. Again, great if you have a plan but irresponsible otherwise.
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Feb 5, 2016 02:20
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Prester Jane posted:I'm not an expert nor have I claimed to be. The experts are working for the FBI. I'm a crank with an unusual insight that has contributed to the thread. Expert I am not, nor shall I ever be. You have some good an interesting insights but you've defiantly acted as the threads solo expert on how these people think and would act if provoked in ways you think would be bad. I've read you're posts and they are fascinating but you have insight into your personal experiences but seem to think it applies to way more than it does. You're a great poster, but you have taken on a bit of 'I'm the expert on how these people think' that's been off putting a few times. I'm sure you don't mean to be but you're getting too defensive over stuff that's literally just different opinions.
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Feb 5, 2016 02:25
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I'm not seeing where Tom says this was the quintessential perfect anti RW occupation playbook or that the slow approach justifies letting Burns get messed up and providing sovcits an actual ritual to stave off FBI mages for at least 3 weeks. I never advocated hastiness.
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Feb 5, 2016 02:29
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Toasticle posted:You have some good an interesting insights but you've defiantly acted as the threads solo expert on how these people think and would act if provoked in ways you think would be bad. I've read you're posts and they are fascinating but you have insight into your personal experiences but seem to think it applies to way more than it does. Doctor Butts posted:Your contributions have been welcome but seriously you need to get your head out of your rear end a bit if you think that you haven't portrayed yourself as a voice of authority on the matter. Fair enough, I will keep that in mind and try to tone it down in the future. I genuinely apologize.
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Feb 5, 2016 02:30
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I still think the FBI did the right thing in general with the refuge occupiers specifically. They weren't a threat to the town of Burns, so let them have their little campout and arrest the leaders when they all get into the same 2 vehicles. I'm more worried about the idiots in the town of Burns now. That could end up going horrifically wrong, FBI did right by not giving them any more martyrs than necessary, but the in town situation is way more dangerous than the refuge ever was.
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Feb 5, 2016 02:31
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Epic High Five posted:Ahah! That's where the real cleverness comes in. The secret is to have the MRAP blasting this as it rolls up Good god that is the most '90s video I have seen in some time. I guess it fits considering the rise of militias and poo poo.
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Feb 5, 2016 02:36
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Santili was just denied bail. The judge was concerned by several of Santili's on-air statements about the number of both registered and unregistered guns he own and apparent threats to federal agents and US Marshals. hahaha, apparently the prosecutors played audio/video of a 2013 Santilli broadcast in which he stated that he would shoot Hillary Clinton in the genitals. Fionnoula fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 02:42
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Fionnoula posted:Santili was just denied bail. The judge was concerned by several of Santili's on-air statements about the number of both registered and unregistered guns he own and apparent threats to federal agents and US Marshals. Just like the overreaching federal government to deny a journalist his freedom just because he threatened to murder federal agents with an unlicensed firearm.
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Feb 5, 2016 02:44
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Fionnoula posted:Santili was just denied bail. The judge was concerned by several of Santili's on-air statements about the number of both registered and unregistered guns he own and apparent threats to federal agents and US Marshals. I like to imagine the judge reading his decision and putting special emphasis on every AND ALSO
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Feb 5, 2016 02:44
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I'm really annoyed that there are still people at the refuge and that sovcit/militia types are still in the town, and very worried that more are on their way. It feels like the longer they are allowed to cause problems there, the more problems they will cause and it will get harder to get them out. It seems to me, at least, that the people converging on the town are less concerned about the remaining people at the refuge and more focused on their own overall sovcit cause.
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Feb 5, 2016 02:46
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I just genuinely really feel great about the fact that Santelli's being hung by his own youtube channel. Like, I hope the court just emphasizes that constantly until finally one of them just blurts out "dumbass." Like "What's your source?" "Its you, dumbass. Lets watch on this phone."
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Feb 5, 2016 02:47
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Kazak_Hstan posted:
Isn't he doing 23 a day in the hole? Does he want that to be a full 24?
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Feb 5, 2016 02:49
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