ProfessorCirno posted:Stop responding to IZ posters already. I knew we shouldn't have changed the name from "Traditional Games Discussion." That's when the rot set in.
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Feb 9, 2016 22:34
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ProfessorCirno posted:The truth of the matter is that most people are not all that creative or ambitious. Case in point: Sean K. Reynolds just hitting upon the idea that maybe allowing non-casters to do stuff on par with casters and thus making them not-useless at high levels might be a good idea. quote:This morning I had some just-woke-up thoughts about resolving issues with “this is what you can do with an Olympic- or Superhuman-level skill” as compared to what you can do with magic at the equivalent character level. This was posted two days ago.
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Feb 9, 2016 22:52
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To be fair wasn't a 10th level fighter called a "Superhero" in AD&D?
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Feb 9, 2016 22:57
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It's amazing that he still thinks non-casters should arbitrarily not be allowed to do things as well as casters.
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Feb 9, 2016 22:57
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Evil Mastermind posted:Case in point: Sean K. Reynolds just hitting upon the idea that maybe allowing non-casters to do stuff on par with casters and thus making them not-useless at high levels might be a good idea. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:To be fair wasn't a 10th level fighter called a "Superhero" in AD&D?
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Feb 9, 2016 23:07
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Evil Mastermind posted:Has a "let me tell you why that thing you like is actually really bad" or "let me tell you why that thing you don't like is actually really good" ever actually swayed anyone? I've often had my opinion on stuff changed by people who explain why the thing I like sucks. Yes, even people who are rude or abrasive about it. Like I'm pretty sure this is exactly how I started appreciating a lot of nerd things I do now like competitive play in video games, lots of design choices in board games, and even 4e in D&D.
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Feb 9, 2016 23:09
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Evil Mastermind posted:Case in point: Sean K. Reynolds just hitting upon the idea that maybe allowing non-casters to do stuff on par with casters and thus making them not-useless at high levels might be a good idea. Lemon Curdistan posted:It's amazing that he still thinks non-casters should arbitrarily not be allowed to do things as well as casters. I think this is less a lack of ambition issue and more what happens when you turn D&D into a pair of blinders. You get so used to D&D - or worse, in this case, one specific edition of D&D - that you lose sight and understanding of everything else around it. He even says he's been playing superhero games, and of course he's in a position to know about games outside of D&D, he was just so blinded by 3.x that he was unable to make any connections. I also wonder what superhero games he was playing - and how similar they are to d20. It's not like tabletop games are alone in this; Lots of video games end up with pointless mechanics because "that's what you have in video games," and if you wanna talk superhero movies, Avengers 2 had the entirely pointless and somewhat insulting Black Widow x Hulk romance subplot because "movies need a romance." 3.x was built on the idea of the rules enforcing some kinda "realism" to them. It's not surprising SKR took 16 years to finally realize that wasn't mandatory and that a giant space exists outside of his island. It's just pathetic. The fact that he's still unable to explain things outside of a 3.x context tells you how utter devoted he is (and how warped he was).
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Feb 9, 2016 23:16
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:To be fair wasn't a 10th level fighter called a "Superhero" in AD&D? 8th. That's not even name-level, and already the expectation is that the fighter is at a superheroic level of competence.
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Feb 9, 2016 23:23
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Evil Mastermind posted:Case in point: Sean K. Reynolds just hitting upon the idea that maybe allowing non-casters to do stuff on par with casters and thus making them not-useless at high levels might be a good idea. The best part is when he keeps qualifying the Jumping Hard Enough to Emulate Fly skill with "remember, you can only jump-fly in a straight line!" Megaman's Jockstrap posted:To be fair wasn't a 10th level fighter called a "Superhero" in AD&D? There was a tonal shift between what it was supposed to be and what the mechanics made it feel like insofar as people think that the "level 1 weak-rear end shitfarmer that needs to earn their fun" was how it was supposed to play out all along. gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Feb 9, 2016 |
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Feb 9, 2016 23:42
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ProfessorCirno posted:It's just pathetic. Well I'm proud of him for escaping at all.
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Feb 10, 2016 00:17
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ProfessorCirno posted:I think this is less a lack of ambition issue and more what happens when you turn D&D into a pair of blinders. You get so used to D&D - or worse, in this case, one specific edition of D&D - that you lose sight and understanding of everything else around it. He even says he's been playing superhero games, and of course he's in a position to know about games outside of D&D, he was just so blinded by 3.x that he was unable to make any connections. I also wonder what superhero games he was playing - and how similar they are to d20. Yeah, something I observed when I reviewed Pathfinder was that almost all the design experience of the people involved was solely d20. I think SKR was one of the few original Pathfinder designers that actually had written for something else (Alternity). I'm well aware of how well the d20 blinders go on because I wrote a decent amount of d20 material, and even got recognized for it, but the way d20 design goes is that a lot of it basically formula. How a monster is designed, how a class or race are designed, all have fairly tight formulae of how they're done, and when you're inside the bubble you learn that balance is achieved just by following those formulae. Or, alternately, just making sure your material roughly matches the power level or challenge rating of other things at that number. You have to step outside of it and realize "huh, clerics are kind of bullshit, huh?" to get out of it, and I did eventually. But I remember the fights I would get in with my codesigners - like seriously angry feuds - and now I wonder what the gently caress I was thinking. I mean, obviously I was in the right, duh, but realizing how hosed the system I was working in makes it seem kind of comical.
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Feb 10, 2016 01:21
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Yeah, something I observed when I reviewed Pathfinder was that almost all the design experience of the people involved was solely d20. I think SKR was one of the few original Pathfinder designers that actually had written for something else (Alternity). I'm well aware of how well the d20 blinders go on because I wrote a decent amount of d20 material, and even got recognized for it, but the way d20 design goes is that a lot of it basically formula. How a monster is designed, how a class or race are designed, all have fairly tight formulae of how they're done, and when you're inside the bubble you learn that balance is achieved just by following those formulae. Or, alternately, just making sure your material roughly matches the power level or challenge rating of other things at that number. You have to step outside of it and realize "huh, clerics are kind of bullshit, huh?" to get out of it, and I did eventually. But I remember the fights I would get in with my codesigners - like seriously angry feuds - and now I wonder what the gently caress I was thinking. I mean, obviously I was in the right, duh, but realizing how hosed the system I was working in makes it seem kind of comical. You don't, really. I actually had this awakening just after 3e hit, BECAUSE of 3e. I had been playing Living City for a while at that point, and had started out with a fighter, quickly learned that fighters were bad, and did what everybody else did. Dual class to a caster. Then, when Living Greyhawk started, naturally, fightmans are good now! So I played a fighter, took awesome feats... and then an orc critted me at level 3 with a greataxe and I died horribly with no chance of revival after having been scrounging all campaign (which we called Living Accountant for a very good reason) to buy any armor better than loving chainmail, while casters were doing awesome poo poo from level 1. I rerolled as a caster and never looked back. It's possible to break out of the bubble from the inside, but it requires that you actually want to be something that the designers hate.
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Feb 10, 2016 01:54
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I am just trying to figure out how even someone with Dungeons & Dragons blinders managed to forget the 3rd Edition Epic Level Handbook where these things already basically happened. ...or, you know, the 2nd Edition "Skills & Powers" handbook where I am pretty sure some of them also happened. I have little doubt that is not even the earliest example.
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Feb 10, 2016 02:03
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NinjaDebugger posted:You don't, really. I actually had this awakening just after 3e hit, BECAUSE of 3e. I had been playing Living City for a while at that point, and had started out with a fighter, quickly learned that fighters were bad, and did what everybody else did. Dual class to a caster. Then, when Living Greyhawk started, naturally, fightmans are good now! So I played a fighter, took awesome feats... and then an orc critted me at level 3 with a greataxe and I died horribly with no chance of revival after having been scrounging all campaign (which we called Living Accountant for a very good reason) to buy any armor better than loving chainmail, while casters were doing awesome poo poo from level 1. I rerolled as a caster and never looked back. It's possible to break out of the bubble from the inside, but it requires that you actually want to be something that the designers hate. A lot of people in the bubble weren't actually playing very much, lots of people who know "D&D-isms" have literally never played or played in a game back in college a decade ago where everyone was drinking every session anyway. I know way too many toilet readers who seemed to think that Monks were the most OP thing in 3.5/Pathfinder.
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Feb 10, 2016 02:12
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I judge (fantasy, at least) RPGs on how cool the Fighter-equivalent is. It's amazing how lame most games make them.
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Feb 10, 2016 02:12
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Countblanc posted:A lot of people in the bubble weren't actually playing very much, lots of people who know "D&D-isms" have literally never played or played in a game back in college a decade ago where everyone was drinking every session anyway. I know way too many toilet readers who seemed to think that Monks were the most OP thing in 3.5/Pathfinder. Yeah, right when 3E was brand new a bunch of folks tripped over themselves to decry the Monk as OP because it got so much stuff, holy poo poo it gets a d20 damage die, but these days you can pretty much easily tell who's actually familiar with the 3.X d20 system and who isn't because even diehard fans will acknowledge things like the various class tier rankings and how it's probably not a good idea to roll Monk in a party made up of Druids, Clerics, Summoners, and whatever else.
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Feb 10, 2016 02:25
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Dr. Quarex posted:I am just trying to figure out how even someone with Dungeons & Dragons blinders managed to forget the 3rd Edition Epic Level Handbook where these things already basically happened. He's really loving dumb. Echophonic posted:I judge (fantasy, at least) RPGs on how cool the Fighter-equivalent is. It's amazing how lame most games make them. This is the Fighter Litmus Test. If the Fighter-equivalent can't do anything cool and powerful, odds are 99% that the system is a gigantic pile of poo poo.
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Feb 10, 2016 02:28
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Dr. Quarex posted:I am just trying to figure out how even someone with Dungeons & Dragons blinders managed to forget the 3rd Edition Epic Level Handbook where these things already basically happened. To be fair I'm still trying to forget the Epic Level Handbook, myself.
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Feb 10, 2016 02:31
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:An epistemic bubble is a term for when you surround yourself by people who mirror your own opinions back to you until you believe that they are far more popular and accepted than they are. You can usually tell when this is happening because the person starts using meaningless quantifiers like "good" and "bad" to describe things. you're right it's my irrational fear of the outside voices that makes me hate comic mens, you've really ripped me open raw here over comic book movies and epistemology Countblanc posted:A lot of people in the bubble weren't actually playing very much, lots of people who know "D&D-isms" have literally never played or played in a game back in college a decade ago where everyone was drinking every session anyway. I know way too many toilet readers who seemed to think that Monks were the most OP thing in 3.5/Pathfinder. When you look at it sideways monks appearing OP almost makes sense, like in theory being able to spider climb up walls, speak any language, roll large damage dice, make a bunch of attacks in a single turn all sound super crazy and dangerous but then you realize that's because fighters get none of that poo poo and that makes the monk look great and exciting by comparison Same thing happened with warlocks (CASTERS? That can cast magic missile all day!?) and soulknives (you mean I CAN'T strip the fighter naked and make him feebly punch rats for a session???)
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Feb 10, 2016 02:37
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Echophonic posted:I judge (fantasy, at least) RPGs on how cool the Fighter-equivalent is. It's amazing how lame most games make them. This is a legit good idea and I subscribe to it myself.
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Feb 10, 2016 02:41
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what the hell does "cronk" mean
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Feb 10, 2016 03:02
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Bongo Bill posted:what the hell does "cronk" mean It's probably a "new "idea that SKR came up with that was really figured out ilke five years ago by other games.
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Feb 10, 2016 03:11
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Bongo Bill posted:what the hell does "cronk" mean I think it's rude to make fun of Sean Reynolds just because he can't spell crunk.
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Feb 10, 2016 03:16
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The Infraggable Cronk
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Feb 10, 2016 03:19
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Effectronica posted:I think it's rude to make fun of Sean Reynolds just because he can't spell crunk. I would party with Sean K
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Feb 10, 2016 03:32
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Dr. Quarex posted:I am just trying to figure out how even someone with Dungeons & Dragons blinders managed to forget the 3rd Edition Epic Level Handbook where these things already basically happened. Wasn't this the original source for I AM THE MOON?
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Feb 10, 2016 04:57
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Oh I know. The problem is a large chunk of the hobby is committed to one system come hell or high water. Weren't you the one who just earlier this very page argued Man of Steel was good because it was broadly popular?
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Feb 10, 2016 05:23
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blackmongoose posted:Wasn't this the original source for I AM THE MOON? That was the bard spell Glibness, which gave an absurd amount of bonus to bluff rolls. 10 more than the penalty for completely stupid and impossible claims. You get it at level 7. Wrestlepig fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Feb 10, 2016 |
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Feb 10, 2016 06:16
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Epic Level handbook had the DCs for 'impossible' things. So you could tell people that you were the moon and then toke up and float away on your own stank cloud.
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Feb 10, 2016 06:22
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Terrible Opinions posted:Weren't you the one who just earlier this very page argued Man of Steel was good because it was broadly popular? No, if you actually bothered to read back literally one page you'll see that I cited that in response to someone saying "who wants to see (that kind of Superman movie)" where it's perfectly relevant. Nice try with the lame little gotcha attempt, tho. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 10, 2016 06:22
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Shut the gently caress up about superhero movies.
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Feb 10, 2016 09:44
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http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2016/02/how-long-before-hasbro-buys-out.html?m=1 Interesting thought fodder but I think it is unlikely.
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Feb 10, 2016 09:47
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clockworkjoe posted:http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2016/02/how-long-before-hasbro-buys-out.html?m=1 With how Wizard's runs all their online and digital products, they probably believe it's some kind of a dark magic. Hasbro doesn't even like RPG's enough to give D&D a regular, full sized dev team. I doubt they're going to buy a company just to cut out the middleman with a minor operational cost. This also assumes that the DriveThru people want to sell and I'm highly doubtful of that.
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Feb 10, 2016 13:04
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Nuns with Guns posted:I would party with Sean K 
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Feb 10, 2016 13:22
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Hah, yeah, after steadily pulling support from the d&d side of their business for years, wizards is suddenly going to want to pay a lot of money to buy obs. The entire point of dms guild is that they can make money without having to write or publish anything.
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Feb 10, 2016 16:09
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moths posted:Man of Steel was kind of hosed because Superman learns that it's ok to take life, and that's not really something anyone associates with the character. It's arguably an unfortunate really of our world, but for a super-human Superman there's always a better way. That's not what he learns though, the whole movie is about him being torn between wanting to use his powers to help people and trying to keep them a secret because his father sacrificed himself rather than risk Clark's powers getting exposed, and then he runs into a dude whose whole thing is "i'm superman, but all i want to do with these powers is murder and enslave humanity" and he kinda loses his poo poo BENGHAZI 2 fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Feb 10, 2016 |
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Feb 10, 2016 16:39
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Lightning Lord posted:Holy poo poo, the artist Wayne England just died. DCs nostalgia thing goes back to Green Lantern Rebirth, new 52 is a symptom not the cause
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Feb 10, 2016 16:40
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Alien Rope Burn posted:DC made a lot of its money on Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns and Batman. And the former two are basically just shockers that relied on being horrifying twists on the Silver Age of comics, and though you can appreciate them without a grounding in comics, they have their biggest impact if you know how the characters are being twisted around. not....really? DKR is a response to DC's longstanding editorial policy that Batman can never age past 29, because once he's 30 he's an Adult and readers can't identify with him. really, the vast majority of miller's batman output (everything but Year One tbh) is about DC's unwillingness to allow characters to change and grow and evolve, and most of that majority is about how silly DC is to have shackled themselves to DKR without realizing the irony motherfuckers this is what i do come at me
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Feb 10, 2016 16:48
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Hey y'all, if moving the discussion to the appropriate forum seems too much like "taking it to the clubhouse" maybe we could take it to the chat thread instead? Just sayin'
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Feb 10, 2016 17:07
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Literally The Worst posted:motherfuckers this is what i do No.
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Feb 10, 2016 17:37
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