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Hey all, I'm looking for a book(s) that outlines the Rinzai school; doctrine, practice, etc. Anybody have anything in mind? I have books on the Linji ju and Koan practice, but nothing that's more broad.
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Jan 10, 2016 21:34
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Mac Con posted:Thanks, guys. Yea I'm aware I jumped into this too soon and pretty arrogantly assuming I could learn it without any preparation or practice, and my biggest comfort has been realizing I must have misunderstood it. I'm absolutely willing to put in the work to learn it properly, but I guess I rushed it in hopes it would allow me to deal with the poo poo I'm going through. My intention in wanting to talk to someone more experienced was just find out where I should start rather than getting any insight into emptiness, which I'm going to set aside for as long as I need to. On the more practical/philosophy side of things, this book was tremendously helpful when it came to understanding emptiness for me from a very practical/applicable standpoint, showing the downfalls and misunderstandings common to that type of meditation, and showing that emptiness isn't the end point of Buddhist philosophy, especially from a Tibetan perspective. This is actually written by a Bon Buddhist teacher who I think is absolutely fantastic and incredible at explaining deep and complex concepts in a deceptively simple manner, and he's often helped me make sense of so much when everything else seems confusing. Of course, this book is not a substitute for professional advice/psycotherapy/appropriate & doctor-recommended medication/etc., but if you feel that this piece of half-finished insight needs to be resolved soon and can't help but look into doing some more studying, then I'd recommend giving this a shot, it's been tremendously healing for me personally. If it helps, I personally went through an intense depersonalization experience brought on by a combination of psilocybin and marijuana almost exactly 5 years ago and likewise felt like I was completely losing my mind. It was definitely one of the most terrifying periods of my life. Nowadays, through treating myself well, eating better, establishing better habits, building my self awareness, exercise, meditation, and establishing the Buddhist view properly through diligent study in connection with a lineage and teacher, I have to say my life is completely different from where I was 5 years ago. I don't know where I'm going with this except to say that, it gets better! I wish you best of luck in resolving your suffering, and I hope that you're able to follow your own wisdom in a way that brings you and your close ones healing. I hope that some of this advice is helpful!
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Jan 11, 2016 05:40
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The Dark Wind posted:On the more practical/philosophy side of things, this book was tremendously helpful when it came to understanding emptiness for me from a very practical/applicable standpoint, showing the downfalls and misunderstandings common to that type of meditation, and showing that emptiness isn't the end point of Buddhist philosophy, especially from a Tibetan perspective. This is actually written by a Bon Buddhist teacher who I think is absolutely fantastic and incredible at explaining deep and complex concepts in a deceptively simple manner, and he's often helped me make sense of so much when everything else seems confusing. Thanks. Rereading my post I'm realizing how much of a trainwreck I came across as, but now that I've got some distance from it I'm becoming aware of how much it forced me to grow as a person, particularly in how it made me let go of how I used to see the world and my place in it. Felt like I was thrown off a cliff and had to learn how to fly before I hit the ground. Probably would have been much healthier to make that adjustment over a longer period, but at the same time it also helps me understand what people like my father go through, and I even feel kind of grateful to have gained that perspective now that I'm on the other side of it. It still seems like I'm taking my first baby steps, but at least I feel like I have a direction to go in for the first time in my life. I'll definitely check out that book, studying things in a more focused, careful way has already helped me a ton. I've been scouting sanghas in my area and I think I'm going to check out the Sakya monastery (http://www.sakya.org) first as they seem the most established, but I've got a few questions for any folks in the Vajrayana tradition. I know you have quite a bit of experience in that area, Paramemetic. It seems super culturally specific to me, so how hard is it for a whitebread westerner who didn't grow up in that cultural tradition to build meaning in the concepts of Tibetan Buddhism? From what I understand it hinges on forming strong mental projections of the various deities and mantras, but wouldn't not having grown up with those gods or knowing what you're even chanting be kind of a hindrance, or is knowing the translation enough to form that connection over time? I went through a weird pseudo-pagan phase as a teenager where I tried associating aspects of nature and humanity with various gods and even without a ton of effort I learned that projections of that sort can have a lot of power, so I get the basic principle I think. I have a feeling it will boil down to not overthinking it and just letting it soak in, but that's still somewhat of a challenge for me.
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Jan 13, 2016 09:22
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Mac Con posted:I've been scouting sanghas in my area and I think I'm going to check out the Sakya monastery (http://www.sakya.org) first as they seem the most established, The Sakyas are legit. Wafflehound knows them much better than I do as he was a student of theirs I believe. but I've got a few questions for any folks in the Vajrayana tradition. I know you have quite a bit of experience in that area, Paramemetic. It seems super culturally specific to me, so how hard is it for a whitebread westerner who didn't grow up in that cultural tradition to build meaning in the concepts of Tibetan Buddhism? From what I understand it hinges on forming strong mental projections of the various deities and mantras, but wouldn't not having grown up with those gods or knowing what you're even chanting be kind of a hindrance, or is knowing the translation enough to form that connection over time? I went through a weird pseudo-pagan phase as a teenager where I tried associating aspects of nature and humanity with various gods and even without a ton of effort I learned that projections of that sort can have a lot of power, so I get the basic principle I think. I have a feeling it will boil down to not overthinking it and just letting it soak in, but that's still somewhat of a challenge for me. [/quote] So, I can provide some limited insight on this I think, but it is something you'll just have to run with. Tibetan Buddhism isn't really Tibetan initially. It has become Tibetan over the last thousand years, but it's Indian Tantra worked into a Tibetan Shamanistic context. Tibetan scholars (educated monks, not just any monks) are all very aware of this. The Tibetan rank and file are a lot like rank and file of any religious culture. Consider Catholics who go twice a year to mass and generally know some of the story, but aren't going to talk to you much about transsubstantiation or the subtleties of doctrine and dogma. All this is being said to say, Tibetan Buddhism isn't prohibitive to Westerners, but it's different for us. Generally, I have seen criticism by Tibetans that Westerners take it too seriously. Many Tibetans are generally ashamed to show up to Western dominated meditation centers because the Westerners, being students coming in from afar, tend to be much more serious and engaged with Dharma. As the saying goes, there's no zealot like a convert. The dissemination of Tibetan Buddhism to the West has been somewhat strategic. There are still some major gaps. Tibetans do not do education the way Westerners do - all of their literary works are in metered rhyme and there is an emphasis on memorization, being able to cite and quote is how you show you know something, in Tibetan culture, for example, whereas in the West we're taught that memorization is the lowest form of learning. Their culture is big on relationships, Westerners tend to emphasize meditation and such (something we got from Zen). But, ultimately, since at least Chogyam Trungpa, there has been a recognition that Tibetan methods aren't going to work for Westerners. There are efforts to teach a Dharma that works for us, and this is coming along. The Sakyas in particular are future-thinking and oriented to the needs of householders, so that will be good. Aside from the culture bits, you've asked about visualizations and mantras. My Lama has taught that while it's important to preserve the lineage by learning the way it has been taught, it's also important to make it meaningful to yourself. For example, there are seven traditional offerings that are placed at a shrine. They are chanted, arghyam, padhyam, pushpam, dhupam, alokam, ghande, newidye, shapta. Not one of those is a Tibetan word - they're all Sanskrit. That's how they were transmitted to Tibet, and that's how they're done. But Tibetans don't use Indian candles for their light offering - they use butter lamps. Here in the US, they use tea lamps. As my teacher once told, all of those offerings (water for drinking, water for washing the face and hands, flowers, incense, lights, scented water / perfume, food, music) are culturally relevant as what you would use for a procession for kings, but visualizing those won't mean much to Americans, so we should also mentally visualize our other offerings - iPads, fancy cars, fancy suits, and so on. Use the original ones because that is the lineage, and there is power in the transmission of the lineage, but also make it relevant to yourself. The visualizations of deities are just deities, they are all encoded with meaning, and they aren't usually something you would want to change as generally those meanings are either defined in tantric texts, passed on via oral transmission, or otherwise critically important. But because they are defined, it's easier to get them. "So and so is standing on a human corpse to represent conquest over ignorance" isn't something you'd get naturally even as a Tibetan. There are tons of TIbetan deity practices just naturally, and that's without even getting into the local deities, local protectors, monastery protectors, and so on. They aren't all an intimate part of Tibetan life - Tibetans tend to know the big main ones (Chenrezig, Tara, Manjushri) and then usually some protectors (Mahakala) but they don't know the litany of every deity. There are 21 Taras and everyone needs to look them up unless they specifically practice Tara. The mantras are also a sticky point. Consider the 6 syllable mantra, the most common and most important mantra for Tibetans. It is written, in Tibetan, ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ་ and pronounced, in Tibetan, "om mah ni peh may hoong." But that "peh me" is spelled "pad me" and in Sanskrit, where this mantra originated, it's "om mani padme hum." In Tibetan, d at the end of a syllable creates an umlaut and no d sound, so the Sanskrit "padme" becomes "peh me." Still, that's how Tibetans chant it. Similarly, the purification mantra of Vajrasattva starts "om vajrasattva samaya . . . " in Sanskrit, but in Tibetan tends to be pronounced "om batsra sattwa . . . " Tibetan lacks a v, the Tibetan spelling makes it ts not j, and so on. So again, it's down to it's more important what you do with it than getting it exactly right. In fact, all of these mantras are Sanskrit to begin with - they are meaningless in Tibetan. The Tibetan name for Vajrasattva is Dorje Sempa. But they still chant the mantra "om vajrasattva . . . " So in fact Tibetans are already dealing with the issue of "what do we do about mantras with no meaning in our language." So basically, just roll with it. Visualize the deities as it is said to visualize them, ask the meaning of their symbols, because they are all symbols. Those deities don't exist like that somewhere. We just paint them like we do to symbolically encode information about them. Does the deity have a mirror? That's the enlightened quality of timeless omniscience. Does the deity have a flower? That's peace and compassion. Manjusri has a flaming sword - he uses it to cut away the veils of ignorance. And so on. Say the mantras the way you're taught. There's a center in my lineage in Asheville, the main teacher there is Taiwanese - he does Sanskrit pronunciations on all the mantras. My teacher is Tibetan - he does the Tibetan pronunciation. When I chant mantras, I use Tibetan pronunciation because that's how they are transmitted to me. Also I read Tibetan and not Sanskrit, so that helps. Anyways, this is getting long, I apologize. I'm happy to talk about this kind of thing at obvious great length, so I welcome any further questions or anything. I think Wafflehound ate a billion year probation, but I can ask him for any hints or tips for Sakya Seattle.
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Jan 13, 2016 16:50
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Mac Con posted:I have a feeling it will boil down to not overthinking it and just letting it soak in, but that's still somewhat of a challenge for me. That's p much the entire point of all of this so if it ever stops being a challenge and you lock this down please come back to give us one word of advice tia~
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Jan 13, 2016 17:13
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For what it's worth, I've found that the two most important elements regarding understanding all of this have been to read modern western Tibetan teachers' writings/recordings/etc., and of course to practice. To many of us (myself included), it might seem strange to do a Sadhana to Chenrezig as a daily practice when we're more accustomed to thinking of meditation as something we do sitting down, quietly, and possibly with our eyes closed. However, once you start doing the practice and start to notice the benefit, then a natural impetus arises to continue to want to practice, learn, and study. In general, from my limited experience, most Tibetan teachers expect students to be strong self-starters, in a way. If you go into a center asking for a lung for ngondro, you're probably going to have to do a lot of research on your own as well as talking to sangha members about what certain words might mean, all the exact visualizations, and what not. I've found that, for myself, once I've begun working on a practice, I'll try to research as many viewpoints and works on it as possible to see it from different angles, and then slowly everything starts to come together. If you're truly committed to the Vajrayana path and wanted to start Ngondro, for example, then you might want to pick up books by Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse, Trinley Norbu, or Yongey Mingyur, who all have written extensively on the ngondro and are modern teachers who have taught/are teaching in the West. While the specific ngondro that they write about might be different from the one you are practicing (Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse writes about the Longchen Nyingthik Ngondro, and Trinley Norbu about the Dudjom Tersar Ngondro, and so on), each teacher might contribute something to your understanding about the overall practice, and slowly things start to become less mysterious. Even if you're starting from the very beginning, simple diligence will get you surprisingly very far. It's not like in the 1970s where people would receive a practice, the lama would leave the area, and there were zero resources to continue studies. Nowadays there is a wealth of content available to help your understanding. In the beginning it will definitely be confusing, and I know that I was personally very overwhelmed, and honestly the learning curve is not friendly. However, if you're dedicated to practice and study, it won't be long before what once seemed strange becomes familiar and inviting. Yes, some elements are incredibly specific to Tibetan culture, while other elements are intimate and crucial details to the core of the tradition as it has been passed down throughout history, and it's often very unclear as to where that line is. You might find that, the more you practice and study, the more your mind becomes marinated in that world, and those kinds of worries recede into the background. If it helps, here are some other teachers who I've found helpful in bridging that gap of understanding thanks to their efforts to teach the dharma in the west: H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama, Tsoknyi Rinpoche, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche, B. Alan Wallace, James Low, Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche, Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche, Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche. Reginald Ray also wrote two volumes of books on Tibetan Buddhism which, while I've personally have not read, have been very helpful to many people I know. reversefungi fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Jan 13, 2016 |
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Jan 13, 2016 18:56
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Paramemetic posted:So basically, just roll with it. I still can't chant in Tibetan very well at all, but I'm trying. edit: and still can't type either. SubjectVerbObject fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Jan 13, 2016 |
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Jan 13, 2016 22:24
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Sakya is great. I found that the Friday night mindfulness meditation was a great starting point. They'll give a little talk about the monastery, and afterwards, they can answer any questions you might have. Mindfulness Meditation is also open to everyone. I haven't been there recently, as it's quite the haul from Capitol Hill, and I don't drive.
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Jan 14, 2016 08:01
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Yea I was going to head over tomorrow night for the calm abiding meditation class. They also have ngondo every morning but Sunday, which would help me break my habit of sleeping in whenever possible. Thanks Paramemetic and Dark Wind, that's a lot of good info. My reading list is starting to scare me. How strange would it be if I sat seiza style in a Tibetan setting? I briefly experimented with working up to lotus, but even though I have good hip mobility my thighs are pretty big from lifting and working as a mover for years and it felt like it put a lot of torque on my knees. I settled on seiza as it seemed the most stable and comfortable, but I'm sure I could work with something else if it means not being that one wierdo.
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Jan 15, 2016 08:25
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Theravada crew represent 
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Jan 15, 2016 08:37
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Mac Con posted:Yea I was going to head over tomorrow night for the calm abiding meditation class. They also have ngondo every morning but Sunday, which would help me break my habit of sleeping in whenever possible. I don't know. Personally - when I attend, I sit in one of the chairs in the back. I have spastic leg muscles, and if I try to sit lotus on the floor? My legs seize up, and stretching them out involves pointing my soles towards either the altar or the teachers, and that's a BIG nono. I essentially live a second shift life, so Sunday Morning Chenrezi just isn't going to happen. But, they put the recordings on line to listen to, and I study to them: http://www.sakya.org/chenrezi-recordings/
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Jan 15, 2016 11:11
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Mac Con posted:I'm aware I've basically had a mental breakdown, but I"m more or less stable now and really just want some insight from anyone who's dealt with anything like this before. I know I'll probably be told to seek professional help but that's not really possible due to my lack of insurance and lovely income. I guess I'd like to talk to a monk or something but I live in Seattle and don't really know if that's a thing here. Are there any Sanghas anyone is aware of where I could go and talk to someone? The ones nearest to me seem only to be open for scheduled classes and stuff. About in the middle of the retreat, the thought occurred to me: "Oh no, what if I'm just some schizophrenic person who thinks he's practicing Buddhism?" It was really interesting to observe because I could see just how once you have that fear, you start interpreting your experiences in light of that fear. The fear of going nuts actually makes you pick out the weirdest aspects of your experience which in turns reinforces the fear. I could see just how easy it is to destabilize the mind in this way. Anyway, I decided that if I was going crazy, I would be the kindest and most virtuous crazy person in the entire psych ward. I might inevitably go crazy one day anyway, so what can I do expect make peace with it? What can I do except make the best out of it? If I'm crazy, well I can still be happy. Might even be fun and interesting to be a bit crazy. Of course, with this sort of attitude the problem basically vanished, because the root of the problem (in my experience anyway) was the fear. My own experience is that all mental healing comes from the beautiful attitudes of just accepting, being kind, being gentle towards whatever is happening. If you have a lot of suffering, wow, you can make so much compassion out of that. If you can find that place of just compassion and tenderness within yourself, that will go a long way towards healing. Personally, I use metta (loving-kindness) a lot just to deal with pain and difficulties in life. I don't even understand how I got by without it for all those years before I got into Buddhism. I highly recommend getting into that, or just stuff like doing volunteer work or getting into helping others. It can really take the edge off mental pain. Good luck to you! :-)
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Jan 21, 2016 10:44
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Rhymenoceros posted:My own experience is that all mental healing comes from the beautiful attitudes of just accepting, being kind, being gentle towards whatever is happening. If you have a lot of suffering, wow, you can make so much compassion out of that. If you can find that place of just compassion and tenderness within yourself, that will go a long way towards healing. I know you were responding to another post, but just had to say that these words were pretty much timed perfectly for me today. Been going through a rough patch with meditation lately because of life stress, with this morning being a real tipping point until I read your post. Guess I really needed to hear the words accepting, gentle, and compassion, because it just washed away a ton of crap. So thanks!
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Jan 21, 2016 15:56
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SpaceCadetBob posted:I know you were responding to another post, but just had to say that these words were pretty much timed perfectly for me today. Been going through a rough patch with meditation lately because of life stress, with this morning being a real tipping point until I read your post. Guess I really needed to hear the words accepting, gentle, and compassion, because it just washed away a ton of crap. So thanks! I also need to continually remind myself of those qualities. For me it's like every time I start feel bad ... what have I forgotten? Oh yeah just being kind, accepting, giving myself a break. The more I'm just making peace, being kind, being gentle, the easier life is, doesn't even really matter what's going on if I can keep a skillful attitude.
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Jan 24, 2016 13:10
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Quantumfate posted:The other common buddhist practise is Metta, which is best translated as "compassion" or "loving-kindness". Buddhism asserts that people are fundamentally empathic beings, but that the conditions of our being mean that it is often difficult to act on that compassion, or even to realize a compassion for another. The solution, like insight meditation, is to engage in a mental training exercise that encourages us to be compassionate. This exercise is Metta. Simply, you would start by thinking happy thoughts about yourself, then expand that out to dear friends, family, then your enemies, then groups of people you do not like, and finally to the millions of people who suffer in any aspect. You would focus all of your concentration on feeling these happy thoughts for others, and it can leave you feeling emotionally drained or warm and fuzzy, but repeated practise of metta is a form of therapy which will teach you compassion. A more expanded explanation is here.
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Jan 28, 2016 10:18
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Does anyone have any experience with extreme rage arising during meditation? I'm not normally an angry person but I've started consistently practicing for 20 minutes every day, and I have to stop multiple times to punch my pillow before I can go back to focusing on my breath. I've been using the sensation of my breath on my nostrils as my meditation object but after a few minutes the sensation just stops, even if I start breathing more heavily. IT made me think of a koan: where is the feeling inside my nostrils going to? the grocery store? Does anyone have any exercises to strengthen the back, beacuse another problem is that I think I'm too physically weak to sit up without my muscles shaking. Lastly is Buddhism compatible with the star larvae hypothesis?
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Feb 9, 2016 04:03
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Frykte posted:Does anyone have any experience with extreme rage arising during meditation? I'm not normally an angry person but I've started consistently practicing for 20 minutes every day, and I have to stop multiple times to punch my pillow before I can go back to focusing on my breath. I've been using the sensation of my breath on my nostrils as my meditation object but after a few minutes the sensation just stops, even if I start breathing more heavily. IT made me think of a koan: where is the feeling inside my nostrils going to? the grocery store? Does anyone have any exercises to strengthen the back, beacuse another problem is that I think I'm too physically weak to sit up without my muscles shaking. Lastly is Buddhism compatible with the star larvae hypothesis?
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Feb 9, 2016 15:24
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Frykte posted:Does anyone have any experience with extreme rage arising during meditation? I'm not normally an angry person but I've started consistently practicing for 20 minutes every day, and I have to stop multiple times to punch my pillow before I can go back to focusing on my breath. I've been using the sensation of my breath on my nostrils as my meditation object but after a few minutes the sensation just stops, even if I start breathing more heavily. IT made me think of a koan: where is the feeling inside my nostrils going to? the grocery store? Does anyone have any exercises to strengthen the back, beacuse another problem is that I think I'm too physically weak to sit up without my muscles shaking. Lastly is Buddhism compatible with the star larvae hypothesis? This is an excellent sign of progress. Let the anger rise and then flow off of you. It may take days, months, who knows; but if you stay with it, it will be well worth it. Also, you can use a chair to sit in.
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Feb 9, 2016 16:00
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Rhymenoceros posted:Are you using willpower to maintain focus on the breath? How do I know for sure if I'm using willpower and not some other kind of mind power? Mr. Mambold posted:This is an excellent sign of progress. Let the anger rise and then flow off of you. It may take days, months, who knows; but if you stay with it, it will be well worth it. Is it okay to punch things or throw my timer at the wall or should I resist these urges?
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Feb 10, 2016 00:06
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Frykte posted:How do I know for sure if I'm using willpower and not some other kind of mind power? Things being non-sentient, right? Punch away. Hell, get a punching bag and some gloves and mount it in the corner of your meditation room.
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Feb 10, 2016 01:35
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Mr. Mambold posted:Things being non-sentient, right? Punch away. Hell, get a punching bag and some gloves and mount it in the corner of your meditation room. What can I do about the sensation of breath going away? I can't put a leash on it haha, so should I just switch over to a different meditation object?
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Feb 10, 2016 07:02
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I want to hear about this star-larvae thing
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Feb 10, 2016 07:52
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Frykte posted:How do I know for sure if I'm using willpower and not some other kind of mind power? The Buddha only praised meditation that was secluded from unwholesome states. Anger is an unwholesome state. In fact, he specifically did not praise meditation that includes ill-will. quote:What kind of meditation did the Blessed One [the Buddha] not praise? [...] Here, brahmin, someone abides with his mind obsessed by ill-will, a prey to ill-will, and he does not understand as it actually is the escape from arisen ill-will. While he harbours ill-will within, he meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates. source
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Feb 10, 2016 09:27
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Nessus posted:I want to hear about this star-larvae thing http://www.starlarvae.org/ here's the website. Yeah, some of the later stuff like the consciousness effecting proton generation with our minds using blackholes is crazy but if the human race continues to survive even when all our water is owned by corporations or the government or the new world order etc. who knows what technologies and advances we could make. Anything is possible. A game of Pong between two fundamental penultimate forces, entropy the ball being paddled back and forth betwixt godlike complexity of future space-humans and the orderliness of a newly created galaxy. The star larvae --> star process reminded me on reincarnation because it is a cycle. Thought it was an interesting coincidence. Rhymenoceros posted:The only reason I can see anger coming up is due to forcing yourself to stay in an uncomfortable position for 20 minutes. It's basically the same technique they use to torture prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, it's called prolonged stress position and is designed to make people feel bad. I've tried lying down to meditate a few times and I'm less angry but still angry enough to have punch the couch sometimes.
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Feb 10, 2016 09:51
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Frykte posted:I've tried lying down to meditate a few times and I'm less angry but still angry enough to have punch the couch sometimes. Don't try to watch the breath at the tip of the nose. Just try to relax and don't focus on anything in particular. No goals, just chilling out with whatever is happening. Does this affect the anger?
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Feb 10, 2016 09:59
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Rhymenoceros posted:The only reason I can see anger coming up is due to forcing yourself to stay in an uncomfortable position for 20 minutes. It's basically the same technique they use to torture prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, it's called prolonged stress position and is designed to make people feel bad. Don't loving quote the Buddha from 2500 years ago if you don't know what you're talking about.
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Feb 10, 2016 18:24
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Rhymenoceros posted:The only reason I can see anger coming up is due to forcing yourself to stay in an uncomfortable position for 20 minutes. It's basically the same technique they use to torture prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, it's called prolonged stress position and is designed to make people feel bad. Mr. Mambold posted:Don't loving quote the Buddha from 2500 years ago if you don't know what you're talking about. That's a perfectly legitimate take on the Buddha's words on meditation. Do you have any examples to counter that, where he praised the idea of cultivating anger during meditation? I haven't seen anything of the sort that I can think of.
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Feb 11, 2016 02:57
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Prickly Pete posted:That's a perfectly legitimate take on the Buddha's words on meditation. Do you have any examples to counter that, where he praised the idea of cultivating anger during meditation? I haven't seen anything of the sort that I can think of. For starters, it's absurd to sit there with a stick up your rear end and do takes on the Buddha's words for a modern practice scenario; the Buddha never considered living in the world as a practice, he pussed out and ran out of the palace. Secondly, we're not talking about cultivating anger during meditation you imbecile. I'm talking about harmlessly letting go of anger, which I think the Buddha did encourage. Idiot. Haha. *Hits you with a stick and slaps your Pistons cap into the mud.*
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Feb 11, 2016 03:08
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Mr. Mambold posted:For starters, it's absurd to sit there with a stick up your rear end and do takes on the Buddha's words for a modern practice scenario; the Buddha never considered living in the world as a practice, he pussed out and ran out of the palace. Secondly, we're not talking about cultivating anger during meditation you imbecile. I'm talking about harmlessly letting go of anger, which I think the Buddha did encourage. Idiot. Haha. Touching my pistons cap is the only thing that will make me abandon nonviolence you monster. Seriously though, maybe I misunderstood the issue about anger. acknowledging it and releasing it seems to be the way to go. You can't pretend it doesn't exist, but understand that it exists without permanence. And yeah, the Buddha was a monk, as were all of his students. But he taught the laity the same path (sans vinaya), and the basics aren't all that different.
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Feb 11, 2016 03:10
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Prickly Pete posted:Touching my pistons cap is the only thing that will make me abandon nonviolence you monster. He's not beating any sentient creature, he's hitting his pillow. It's marvelous for him to be able to do this, it is a great thing when anger crystallizes so conveniently in one's meditation, rather than when one is driving down the interstate? Or at a Pacers game, lol? GL and hope your team make the playoffs (and Reggie is relegated to the bench now that Jennings is getting healthy, lol)
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Feb 11, 2016 03:22
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Mr. Mambold posted:He's not beating any sentient creature, he's hitting his pillow. It's marvelous for him to be able to do this, it is a great thing when anger crystallizes so conveniently in one's meditation, rather than when one is driving down the interstate? Or at a Pacers game, lol? I'm not posting very well here and i'm juggling the game, this thread, and the GDT, but I agree with you so it's all good. It'll be a glorious first round exit. If anything, buddhism has helped me cope with the spiritual anguish of being a pistons fan over the past 5-6 years.
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Feb 11, 2016 03:25
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Rhymenoceros posted:Try sitting in a chair, with good back support, as comfortable as possible. Angrier!! Worse than meditation on breath! I had violent imagery of myself throwing my nintendo ds at the wall.
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Feb 11, 2016 04:01
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Frykte posted:Angrier!! Worse than meditation on breath! I had violent imagery of myself throwing my nintendo ds at the wall. Full disclosure; I'm not Buddhist, I'm Catholic, but this isn't from a religious point of view: when you try to do meditation, whether from a religious or secular perspective, if you have REALLY strong emotions interrupting the practice (as in they are so strong you have to stop and express them), so either crying, punching, etc. and they keep happening, this can be indicative of a psychological trauma that may need to be addressed medically. Contextually, the Buddha was teaching people who were probably pretty healthy, and so this kind of thing may come up in the Suttas I'm not sure, but it would be comparatively rare because to be a monk you have to be astonishingly healthy in the Buddhist context. I'm saying this because I want you to progress in your practice, and finding a mental health practitioner who's familiar with (actual) Buddhist practice may be able to help you through this and continue your practice. Edit: I should be clear I say actual Buddhist practice 'cause I've seen psychologists who have a very strange view of what Buddhist practice is. Thirteen Orphans fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Feb 11, 2016 |
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Feb 11, 2016 04:12
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Frykte posted:Angrier!! Worse than meditation on breath! I had violent imagery of myself throwing my nintendo ds at the wall.
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Feb 11, 2016 10:08
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Prickly Pete posted:Touching my pistons cap is the only thing that will make me abandon nonviolence you monster. From the standpoint of Buddhist psychology, it is clear that in whatever way you habitually use your mind, that becomes the inclination of your mind: quote:"Whatever a monk keeps pursuing with his thinking & pondering, that becomes the inclination of his awareness. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with sensuality, abandoning thinking imbued with renunciation, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with sensuality. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with ill will, abandoning thinking imbued with non-ill will, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with ill will. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with harmfulness, abandoning thinking imbued with harmlessness, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with harmfulness. source If you keep giving into and expressing anger, that becomes the inclination of your mind. You're growing the unwholesome parts of your mind, and making bad karma in the process. The way to overcome anger, according to the Buddha, is to cultivate qualities like loving-kindness and compassion. Edit: quote:Having killed what do you sleep in ease? Having killed what do you not grieve? Of the slaying of what one thing does Gotama approve? Source. Rhymenoceros fucked around with this message at 10:26 on Feb 11, 2016 |
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Feb 11, 2016 10:21
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Rhymenoceros posted:The idea of catharsis (releasing pent up emotions) comes from Freud and the psychotherapy of that time, and like a lot of things of from psychotherapy, there's no empirical evidence that suggests it's helpful or even a good thing to do. Catharsis is a controversial idea in modern psychology. I wasn't referring to catharsis, though I can see where that impression came from. I was really referring to taking a moment to acknowledge the mental state, observe it calmly, and then try to return to the meditation object. With rage that certainly isnt going to be easy though. Some text that I can't recall lays out the bhramaviharas (I think, or maybe just a list of meditation objects) as a method to counter "opposite" feelings that are intruding - metta being used to counter anger for example, or equanimity being used to counter jealousy and so on. I'm phone posting and I can't remember the details, but it basically boils down to using one of the many objects to directly confront what is tormenting your mind. This could be from Bhante G's book but I might have heard it in a dhamma talk also. My practice kind of dissolved over the year and my memory is slipping.
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Feb 11, 2016 12:08
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Prickly Pete posted:I wasn't referring to catharsis, though I can see where that impression came from. I was really referring to taking a moment to acknowledge the mental state, observe it calmly, and then try to return to the meditation object. I want to make this point either way, because I think it's good for people to know about it. Prickly Pete posted:With rage that certainly isnt going to be easy though. Some text that I can't recall lays out the bhramaviharas (I think, or maybe just a list of meditation objects) as a method to counter "opposite" feelings that are intruding - metta being used to counter anger for example, or equanimity being used to counter jealousy and so on. I'm phone posting and I can't remember the details, but it basically boils down to using one of the many objects to directly confront what is tormenting your mind.
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Feb 11, 2016 12:47
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Frykte posted:Angrier!! Worse than meditation on breath! I had violent imagery of myself throwing my nintendo ds at the wall. Awesome! You are learning detachment whether you want it or not. I think if you brought your nintendo ds to a zen retreat, a monk there would do that without thinking twice. This is a blessing, rest assured.
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Feb 11, 2016 15:18
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Rhymenoceros posted:When are you not angry? I'm always calm unless I'm meditating, or if I've forgotten to put food in my mouth which I've been doing a great job of lately.
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Feb 12, 2016 01:50
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This sounds simple, but have you tried using compassion? If you feel anger rising, just think something like 'hello anger, I know you are there'. I have used this method with other feelings, such as sadness that arrises. Sometimes just acknowledging something unpleasant and giving it permission to just be, rather than fighting it, will help you get past it. Also, how long are you attempting to meditate for each session, and how often? This may not apply to you, but trying to meditate longer than you probably should can definitely cause some unwanted feelings. When I first started I was attempting 30 minute sessions or longer and I would get depressed and frustrated when I just could not sit that long without a racing mind and fighting the urge to get up. But then I realized it's not much different than any exercise. If I decided I wanted start running everyday I couldn't just begin expecting that I could run 5 miles each morning. Start small and work your way up.
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Feb 12, 2016 04:25
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