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Pixelboy posted:It just struck me that they're cosplayers, but are too deep into it to see it. Hey hey hey, we cosplayers are very self-aware. When you start truly believing that you ARE the character you're dressed as ... you are no longer cosplaying. Edit: plurals, herp derp.
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Feb 17, 2016 04:51
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I don't really agree with Harney County dignifying these people with substantive responses, but they got a law professor to write a thing about federal land ownership in response to KrisAnne Hall's bullshit: http://www.co.harney.or.us/PDF_Files/County%20Court/public%20land%20issues/Federal%20Ownership%20of%20Public%20Lands.pdf
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Feb 17, 2016 04:53
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I am straight up pissed to hear that Bundy has been allowed to gently caress up hundreds of thousands of acres of federal parks for 18 years with his lovely cows, never mind conquering it with armed force and scaring BLM workers away for over a year. No wonder they thought they could get away with annexing a building in Oregon; it's peanuts compared to what's going on in Nevada, only it happened suddenly and with a lot of fanfare. I'm sure there's more to the story of why this has dragged out so long, but I certainly hope they plan to clean up this mess sooner rather than later.
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Feb 17, 2016 05:33
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Goodpancakes posted:Why are the Bundy body guards hanging around? Like does he pay those guys? What the gently caress Depends, I think some are independently wealthy/small business owners who can afford to just up and leave for months. Some are retired old people pulling social security and using their government checks to fight the evil gubment. Some are at least partially subsidized on wingnut welfare. Some have significant others actually working a regular job that can support their idiot manchild marching off to the desert to play Yall'Queda with their drinking buddies.
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Feb 17, 2016 05:51
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Bail Fail Final Nail for Tax-Avoiding Militia Male
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Feb 17, 2016 05:57
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http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/299479564/2-ECF16-16-154-U-S-A-v-A-Bundy-et-al-Government-s-Response-to-Defendants-Motions-for-Site-Access Item five is the first affirmative statement I've seen from the government that explosives have been found. No detail though.
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Feb 17, 2016 06:21
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Kazak_Hstan posted:http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/299479564/2-ECF16-16-154-U-S-A-v-A-Bundy-et-al-Government-s-Response-to-Defendants-Motions-for-Site-Access I know righteous indignation is the general mood of this thread, but this is one of the funniest things I've ever read  edit: Also 
Al! fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Feb 17, 2016 |
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Feb 17, 2016 06:27
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Kazak_Hstan posted:http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/299479564/2-ECF16-16-154-U-S-A-v-A-Bundy-et-al-Government-s-Response-to-Defendants-Motions-for-Site-Access This is good poo poo. I love all the documents posted giving insight into the court process. Keep them coming!
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Feb 17, 2016 06:33
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ashpanash posted:The "secret message" was given by Ammon Bundy's attorney to the FBI, who relayed it to Fry. Very interesting to decompose the article- a lot of it is clearly based on an interview with Fiore. They had much less FBI access- just one person on background.
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Feb 17, 2016 07:09
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Al! posted:I know righteous indignation is the general mood of this thread, but this is one of the funniest things I've ever read So everyone charged with conspiracy is also going to be on the hook for all these other things right? If so they're all completely hosed if militia idiots brought a bunch of explosives, or made their own on the refuge, in addition to possibly destroying the cultural sites and other damages. Toss them all in the same prison and make a little Sov Cit supermax playpen.
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Feb 17, 2016 07:11
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Crigit posted:That one is particularly stupid because how the gently caress would you pull anything out of the inside pocket of a coat with the hand on the same side? Well, that's part of the argument. The FBI says he had a loaded pistol in his left inside pocket. Well we all know the FBI lies and finicum always wore a holster on his hip. You know, aside from those times he didn't, but we can ignore those because they drill holes in the argument
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Feb 17, 2016 07:18
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So if explosives are indeed confirmed does that put terrorism charges seriously on the table?
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Feb 17, 2016 07:18
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I imagine the extent is still unknown, but just how much damage was done regarding Native American relics? I think I remember reading something about the occupiers rifling through what was stored at the reserve, hoping to sell them back to their respective tribes.
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Feb 17, 2016 07:19
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chitoryu12 posted:I love that absolutely no attempt is made by the memorandum to be neutral. It's scathing with contempt for Cliven. Which is all well deserved. No one in law enforcement likes the guy because he's an rear end in a top hat and not afraid to show it. I imagine after getting complaints the cops go to his place to ask him to control his cattle and he immediately goes into rear end in a top hat mode
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Feb 17, 2016 07:30
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Did anybody ever say why Victoria Sharp was in the car with LaVoy et al during the shooting instead of with the rest of her band/family?
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Feb 17, 2016 07:30
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katlington posted:Did anybody ever say why Victoria Sharp was in the car with LaVoy et al during the shooting instead of with the rest of her band/family? I'm pretty sure they intended to use her as a human shield, so no, nobody has ever said why she was there.
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Feb 17, 2016 07:32
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Jonas Albrecht posted:I imagine the extent is still unknown, but just how much damage was done regarding Native American relics? I think I remember reading something about the occupiers rifling through what was stored at the reserve, hoping to sell them back to their respective tribes. These are people who can't eat breakfast without making a giant mess and breaking something. Those relics are hosed And so are the militants, according to those documents. Jesus the Feds aren't even going to let little fish skate by rolling on everybody. Feinne posted:So if explosives are indeed confirmed does that put terrorism charges seriously on the table? I imagine they'd have to be placed in some kind of trap for those charges to be immediately applied. If they brought them, they were probably sourced illegally (or signified premeditation of something big) and they can be nailed for it. If they were already there in the refuge then they can just say they were moving them around to get at something.
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Feb 17, 2016 07:34
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katlington posted:Did anybody ever say why Victoria Sharp was in the car with LaVoy et al during the shooting instead of with the rest of her band/family? She was supposedly going to sing at the meeting the leadership was going to.
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Feb 17, 2016 07:36
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Jonas Albrecht posted:I imagine the extent is still unknown, but just how much damage was done regarding Native American relics? I think I remember reading something about the occupiers rifling through what was stored at the reserve, hoping to sell them back to their respective tribes. Probably not very much, but who knows?
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Feb 17, 2016 07:38
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katlington posted:Did anybody ever say why Victoria Sharp was in the car with LaVoy et al during the shooting instead of with the rest of her band/family? She didn't feel like getting up, according to one source that i don't recall Is not a big deal, they were all going to the same place
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Feb 17, 2016 07:40
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Discendo Vox posted:Very interesting to decompose the article- a lot of it is clearly based on an interview with Fiore. They had much less FBI access- just one person on background. Regardless, I think it's clear that the FBI did exactly the right thing. David Fry was a fringe cultist who was only there because of a friendship with a true believer - who died. Meanwhile other true believers are on a phone call trying to convince him with lovely reverse psychology to martyr himself for the cause. What better way to calm him down than a message from the cult leader himself, telling him personally to stand down?
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Feb 17, 2016 08:35
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Ammon had been telling them all to stand down for like a week straight though, why even make up some secret communication?
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Feb 17, 2016 08:56
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He didn't though. He told them to stand down, then he told them to keep fighting. It was weird.
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Feb 17, 2016 08:59
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:He didn't though. He told them to stand down, then he told them to keep fighting. It was weird. I though Ammon was telling them to stand down (as he was going to be held until they left at least), but Cliven chimed in and said keep up the good fight?
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Feb 17, 2016 09:01
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Epic High Five posted:I though Ammon was telling them to stand down (as he was going to be held until they left at least), but Cliven chimed in and said keep up the good fight? The whole thing was so much of a clusterfuck it's pretty much impossible to figure out who said what to who. They didn't want to fight except when they did and they'd leave if they were asked nicely by the community unless they didn't feel like it. The local sheriff is the highest law unless he disagrees with us.
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Feb 17, 2016 09:03
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ToxicSlurpee posted:The whole thing was so much of a clusterfuck it's pretty much impossible to figure out who said what to who. So far I've been going with whatever is the dumbest thing I can think of, and even then it's usually not as crazy as the truth
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Feb 17, 2016 09:04
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Epic High Five posted:Ammon had been telling them all to stand down for like a week straight though, why even make up some secret communication? In a tense situation, previously conflicting messages don't matter as much as what people are saying at the time. This is an emotional situation, not one that can be defeated with logic. Logic is a puzzle and it takes time and thought to decipher - you need to appeal directly to chemicals in a negotiation.
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Feb 17, 2016 09:12
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To be clear, you can be trained (or train yourself) to apply logic to tense situations. I don't think David Fry had that kind of training.
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Feb 17, 2016 09:16
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The huge mess these people left is not surprising, but it does go to show that these people with all their focus on chores and poo poo, none one will clean up. I remember reading an early description of the occupiers as having "a strong focus on daily chores"; i'm sure none of those chores involved cleaning, just chopping wood, clearing brush, and other manly tasks, and nothing about cleaning up, becuase that's womens work. In the other article, the writer says how he saw LaVoy upset of the mess they'd left the wood working shop, which I'm not surprised at because, again, these guys don't clean.
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Feb 17, 2016 09:31
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"Trench of human feces" left next to a culturally sensitive site. And here they were complaining about artifacts speckled with rat poops.
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Feb 17, 2016 10:44
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ShadowCatboy posted:"Trench of human feces" left next to a culturally sensitive site. Pretty sure any claim they had to caring about the artifacts went out the window when they bulldozed a road to through the place and declared that the natives had "lost their right to them" because something something 'Murrica. twistedmentat posted:The huge mess these people left is not surprising, but it does go to show that these people with all their focus on chores and poo poo, none one will clean up. I remember reading an early description of the occupiers as having "a strong focus on daily chores"; i'm sure none of those chores involved cleaning, just chopping wood, clearing brush, and other manly tasks, and nothing about cleaning up, becuase that's womens work. I wouldn't doubt it. Patriot Fantasy Camp wouldn't take the time for something as non glamorous as cleaning up their own filth.
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Feb 17, 2016 13:52
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McNerd posted:I am straight up pissed to hear that Bundy has been allowed to gently caress up hundreds of thousands of acres of federal parks for 18 years with his lovely cows, never mind conquering it with armed force and scaring BLM workers away for over a year. No wonder they thought they could get away with annexing a building in Oregon; it's peanuts compared to what's going on in Nevada, only it happened suddenly and with a lot of fanfare. I'm sure there's more to the story of why this has dragged out so long, but I certainly hope they plan to clean up this mess sooner rather than later. Waco and Ruby Ridge were still fresh in the FBI's minds when Bundy Ranch went down. It didn't help that unlike the former two incidents, Bundy Ranch had several hundred people from across the country showing up to join the armed group. For the most part, right-wing militia members are sane (in the clinical sense) and just believe in really stupid things and think violence is the answer. They're not a doomsday cult setting themselves on fire to avoid being arrested. If the standoff was to turn into a bloodbath, the repercussions would have likely been felt on a wider scale than the results of just one crazy cult or one crazy family getting hurt. Any deaths would also have turned the deceased (especially Cliven Bundy himself if he were to try and die on his feet) into a martyr for the "patriot" cause. Instead, all it took was waiting until Yokel Don Corleone and his bodyguards had to put their guns down for a few hours and mobbing them.
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Feb 17, 2016 15:33
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Geostomp posted:Pretty sure any claim they had to caring about the artifacts went out the window when they bulldozed a road to through the place and declared that the natives had "lost their right to them" because something something 'Murrica. Oh man, I can't find it now and I'm in D&D and all, but I'm sure I remember something about Bundy beliefs in natural property rights having three components: Occupy - Use - Defend Following from that it would make sense that the natives lost their claims, because they failed to Defend their property. (Their claim would have been weak against white settlers anyway, since farming is a more productive use of land than subsistence hunting.) It also makes the ranch standoff sensible. If Bundy puts the land to productive use ranching cattle and also defends it, and the government fails to use it or defend it, then it becomes Bundy's personal property by right. Cattle is a higher or more productive use of the land than using it as tortoise habitat. Eventually they could claim ownership of all the federal wild lands like the wildlife refuge just by occupying it, using it for something (a campground) and then defending it. If the federal government doesn't defend their land, they lose ownership of it to someone who can.
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Feb 17, 2016 16:08
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Well, I'm convinced, they really did make the place better. All it needed was a nice trench of human feces.
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Feb 17, 2016 16:36
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chitoryu12 posted:Waco and Ruby Ridge were still fresh in the FBI's minds when Bundy Ranch went down. It didn't help that unlike the former two incidents, Bundy Ranch had several hundred people from across the country showing up to join the armed group. For the most part, right-wing militia members are sane (in the clinical sense) and just believe in really stupid things and think violence is the answer. They're not a doomsday cult setting themselves on fire to avoid being arrested. If the standoff was to turn into a bloodbath, the repercussions would have likely been felt on a wider scale than the results of just one crazy cult or one crazy family getting hurt. Any deaths would also have turned the deceased (especially Cliven Bundy himself if he were to try and die on his feet) into a martyr for the "patriot" cause. Sure, I don't want a bloodbath or martyrdom either. But I'm not super crazy about armed militias taking over hundreds of acres of territory and driving the feds out for over a year. That's the sort of thing I expect to hear about in Columbia, maybe, not first-world countries. I'm also not sure that this *is* over without a bloodbath yet. It's abundantly clear to all involved that Bundy only got arrested by leaving his bodyguards behind. What happens if they just pick a new leader and continue doing what they're doing at Bundy Ranch? Does this go on another five years? Finally, all the above is about what's happened since the 2014 standoff. What about the fact he has been illegally making GBS threads all over Nevada since *1993*, and in defiance of a court order since *1998*? Why couldn't we have had the same standoff in 1999 and Bundy's trial in 2001?
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Feb 17, 2016 16:38
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Angela Christine posted:Oh man, I can't find it now and I'm in D&D and all, but I'm sure I remember something about Bundy beliefs in natural property rights having three components: I'm guessing you are just playing devil's advocate here but you just said it made sense that the natives lost their claim to their ancestral land because they failed to defend their property, they didn't deserve the land because they weren't farming it (really? The native americans weren't primitive hunter gatherers. They gave us corn, remember?) and also that pointing firearms at federal agents is "sensible" because the government didn't gun them all down after all. Like if you are going to play devil's advocate try to make sure you have something worth advocating first. There's no rationale for what these people did.
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Feb 17, 2016 16:41
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McNerd posted:Sure, I don't want a bloodbath or martyrdom either. But I'm not super crazy about armed militias taking over hundreds of acres of territory and driving the feds out for over a year. That's the sort of thing I expect to hear about in Columbia, maybe, not first-world countries. If It Happened There: Armed Rebel Faction Occupies Government Building quote:BURNS, United States—An armed rebel group has seized control of a government building in the country’s sparsely populated northwest frontier territories. The ongoing standoff in Oregon state poses a serious challenge to the authority of the government in the capital, Washington, more than 2,000 miles away.
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Feb 17, 2016 16:42
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Mirthless posted:I'm guessing you are just playing devil's advocate here but you just said it made sense that the natives lost their claim to their ancestral land because they failed to defend their property, they didn't deserve the land because they weren't farming it (really? The native americans weren't primitive hunter gatherers. They gave us corn, remember?) and also that pointing firearms at federal agents is "sensible" because the government didn't gun them all down after all. No, I'm not playing devil's advocate. I'm saying that if you believe that that sort of natural property rights, then their actions make sense. If you own what you can hold, then the natives don't own it because they failed to hold it. It is internally consistent. Their actions make sense to them. Personally I don't believe in that sort of natural property rights, because I think the obvious result would be petty warlords and bands of bullies taking whatever they want. But I can see how it would be an attractive idea for a bunch of heavily armed bullies in a sparsely populated area.
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Feb 17, 2016 16:46
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Al! posted:I know righteous indignation is the general mood of this thread, but this is one of the funniest things I've ever read
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Feb 17, 2016 16:47
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Ratoslov posted:I am completely unsurprised that these guys couldn't handle the simple logistical task of digging and maintaining latrines. They literally couldn't get their poo poo together. Probably the last time any of these fatasses "roughed it" was when they were 8 and at a BSA camp that had fixed toilets and a log fort.
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