Israel/Palestine

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel/Palestine

(Thread IKs: Main Paineframe, Irony Be My Shield, punishedkissinger)

ungulateman: Apr 18, 2012; pretentious fuckwit who isn't half as literate or insightful or clever as he thinks he is

Friedman's weird. The Lexus and the Olive Tree is actually a pretty good book, but literally everything else I've seen him write is way more right-wing and way less willing to admit the problems that global capitalism is responsible for.

Maybe 9/11 hosed up his personal politics, I dunno.

# ? Feb 12, 2016 00:13

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 15, 2024 18:26

Kim Jong Il: Aug 16, 2003

It's less political than incoherent and colossally stupid. I was calling Friedman an idiot here for years before Taibbi started making fun of him.

# ? Feb 12, 2016 04:20

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Ytlaya posted:

I'm confused as to how any human being with a functioning brain could believe something like "if Palestinians did the right thing instead of terrorism they could be an economic powerhouse!" And I don't mean this as an insult; I'm honestly curious about what goes on inside of the head of someone who believes something like that. When someone brings up stuff like Israeli blockades, what goes through their head?

edit: I should clarify that I could understand some person who knows nothing about the Israel/Palestine situation hearing a soundbyte like that from a politician they like and repeating it, but someone like Friedman presumably is forming these opinions on his own.

The blockade is because of the poor relationship between Israel and Hamas, and it's safe to say it wouldn't be in effect (and Gaza's economy would be allowed to function) if Hamas was more cooperative. That said, despite the lack of blockade, it's not like the West Bank is exactly an economic powerhouse either - it functions largely as a source of cheap goods and cheaper labor for Israel.

# ? Feb 12, 2016 07:21

Avshalom: Feb 14, 2012; by Lowtax

Ariel stands nude before me. A vast aquiline manatee darkened by the Negev sun. I dream of his hoodless cock. The beefsteak red of it, its crown of veins. He's a mountain. I'm climbing Everest! I drive my pickaxe into his summit (rear end), by the way I'm wearing a dildo. I'm a dildo dingo. I'm a lemon grove growing in potato soil. My breasts are spreading out like melted butter. My clitoris is a red-hot ghost chilli. A rocket explodes into the wall of my temple. Arik! Arik! Must I dream of you all my life?

# ? Feb 12, 2016 13:43

Nosfereefer: Jun 15, 2011; IF YOU FIND THIS POSTER OUTSIDE BYOB, PLEASE RETURN THEM. WE ARE VERY WORRIED AND WE MISS THEM

Avshalom posted:

Ariel stands nude before me. A vast aquiline manatee darkened by the Negev sun. I dream of his hoodless cock. The beefsteak red of it, its crown of veins. He's a mountain. I'm climbing Everest! I drive my pickaxe into his summit (rear end), by the way I'm wearing a dildo. I'm a dildo dingo. I'm a lemon grove growing in potato soil. My breasts are spreading out like melted butter. My clitoris is a red-hot ghost chilli. A rocket explodes into the wall of my temple. Arik! Arik! Must I dream of you all my life?

# ? Feb 13, 2016 03:35

Dusty Baker 2: Jul 8, 2011; Keyboard Inghimasi

Avshalom posted:

Ariel stands nude before me. A vast aquiline manatee darkened by the Negev sun. I dream of his hoodless cock. The beefsteak red of it, its crown of veins. He's a mountain. I'm climbing Everest! I drive my pickaxe into his summit (rear end), by the way I'm wearing a dildo. I'm a dildo dingo. I'm a lemon grove growing in potato soil. My breasts are spreading out like melted butter. My clitoris is a red-hot ghost chilli. A rocket explodes into the wall of my temple. Arik! Arik! Must I dream of you all my life?

same

# ? Feb 13, 2016 04:22

Kim Jong Il: Aug 16, 2003

It's amazing how hard the Clinton admin pushed for something like this, and now it's effectively a non-story. Strategically, I think it's probably a mistake due to the fundamental instability of most of these regimes.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/time-to-publicize-secret-ties-with-arab-states-netanyahu-says/

quote:

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday said it was time for Israel to make public its covert ties with Arab states, hours after his defense minister touted the same secret relationships.

Addressing the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, the prime minister maintained that most moderate Arab countries see Israel as their ally, not their enemy, as they share a common struggle against Iran and the Islamic State.

�Major Arab countries are changing their view of Israel � they don�t see Israel anymore as their enemy, but they see Israel as their ally, especially in the battle against militant Islam with its two fountainheads,� he said in English. �Now, this is something that is forging new ties, many of them discreet, some of them open. And I think there too we can expect and should expect and should ask to see a change.�

The prime minister did not elaborate.

Netanyahu�s remarks came the same day as Defense Minister Moshe Ya�alon said there were open channels between Israel and other Arab states, but the �sensitive� situation prevents him from shaking hands with Arab officials in public. He later publicly shook the hand of Saudi Prince Turki bin Faisal al�Saud.

Turki is the rare Saudi official who has met openly with a number of Israeli officials in the past. Israel�s covert ties with Sunni Arab states are such that while they cannot display signs of cordiality in public, �we can meet in closed rooms,� said Ya�alon at the Munich Security Conference.

�But we do have channels to speak with our Sunni Arab neighboring countries. Not just Jordan and Egypt � Gulf states, North African states,� he said. �For them, Iran is an enemy.� Ya�alon, speaking in English, maintained that the Arab states are �frustrated and furious at the lack of Western support.�

Saudi Arabia and other Arab states maintain they will only normalize ties with the Jewish state once a peace deal is reached with the Palestinians via a two�state solution.

Israel has long said there are secret back�channel talks between Jerusalem and Sunni states, which share common concerns over Iranian hegemony in the region.

Netanyahu told the conference Sunday that increased ties with the Arab states could help pave the way toward an agreement with the Palestinians, an oft�repeated mantra.

�I think that is very clear given the, what I regret to say is the disfunctionality that I often see in Palestinian politics, and I think that the encouragement of Arab states, leading Arab states, for a more realistic position on the part of the Palestinian Authority might contribute to a stabilizing situation and even advancing to a better future,� he said.

In January, Israeli TV reported that Energy Minister Yuval Steinitz paid a visit to Abu Dhabi, where he met with several officials to discuss shared concerns over Iran, the Islamic State and other matters.

Last week, Deputy Minister for Regional Cooperation Ayoub Kara said an Israeli hospital recently provided life�saving treatment to a Bahraini princess, who chose to come to Israel over the United States. However, the case to which he was apparently referring took place in 2010.

�The relationship with the Saudi[�led] coalition is very important to us,� Kara said. �The entire Saudi[�led] coalition wants stronger ties because the dangers they face are the same as Israel. This danger is Iran. We have many things in common today.�

# ? Feb 14, 2016 23:01

FlamingLiberal: Jan 18, 2009; Would you like to play a game?

The Israelis and Saudis working together is almost too perfect of a relationship

# ? Feb 14, 2016 23:22

Torrannor: Apr 27, 2013; ---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE

FlamingLiberal posted:

The Israelis and Saudis working together is almost too perfect of a relationship

Both contestants for "most useless US ally".

# ? Feb 14, 2016 23:25

Rigged Death Trap: Feb 13, 2012; BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP

FlamingLiberal posted:

The Israelis and Saudis working together is almost too perfect of a relationship

It's almost been an open secret.
Nothing really new.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 01:07

hakimashou: Jul 15, 2002; Upset Trowel

Ehud Olmert is in the clink and avshalom is the best poster on SA.

# ? Feb 16, 2016 02:59

Baloogan: Dec 5, 2004; Fun Shoe

hakimashou posted:

avshalom is the best poster on the internet

# ? Feb 16, 2016 07:37

TheImmigrant: Jan 18, 2011

UK castrates BDS: Putting a stop to public procurement boycotts

Guidance published today makes clear that procurement boycotts by public authorities are inappropriate, outside where formal legal sanctions, embargoes and restrictions have been put in place by the government.

[ ... ]

Town hall boycotts undermine good community relations, poisoning and polarising debate, weakening integration and fuelling anti-Semitism.

No poo poo.

# ? Feb 17, 2016 18:41

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Oops, looks like the right-wing extremism is coming from inside the house!

quote:

The Israeli army’s chief rabbi has been called in to clarify why he danced at a wedding, in his IDF uniform, with an extreme right-wing rabbi who co-authored a book discussing when Jewish law permits the killing of non-Jews.

Rafi Peretz was filmed dancing wit] extreme right-wing settler rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro at a wedding held last week. Footage obtained by Channel 2 News and broadcast on Sunday showed Peretz wearing Shapiro’s hat and Shapiro with Peretz’s IDF beret on his head.

But that's not really what I want to talk about today. What's getting my goose right now is the form of Holocaust denial nobody talks about : a denial that anyone besides Jews died in the Holocaust. It's not really directly related to Israel, but it's something that comes up a lot in the Israeli news and it never fails to piss me the hell off. While the fact that six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust as part of a systematic campaign of extermination is common knowledge, the total number of civilians killed as part of the Holocaust was around eleven million - in addition to the 6 million Jews, millions of Roma, Slavs, and other smaller groups were also targeted for systematic extermination. Those 5 million "forgotten victims" are surprisingly controversial, often sidelined or outright ignored - many Holocaust memorials marginalize or outright exclude them. But to many, any attempt to remember those five million non-Jews is an unforgiveable act of anti-Semitism, an evil conspiracy to deJudaicize the Holocaust.

quote:

Holocaust remembrance without Jews? Canada’s new prime minister, Liberal Party leader Justin Trudeau, gave it a try. His seven-sentence official statement on International Day of Commemoration in Memory of the Victims of the Holocaust, January 27 mentioned “millions of victims,” “the Holocaust” and “Nazis.” Just not Jews.

Some Canadians were outraged, but anyone cognizant of history’s deadly ironies should not have been surprised. The European Union’s then-foreign affairs chief, Britain’s Catherine Ashton, did the same thing in 2014.

Her short Holocaust Commemoration Day statement on behalf of the E.U. that year likewise never mentioned the words “Jewish” or “Jews.” “Lady Ashton manages great feat in honor of Holocaust Day,” blogger Yisrael Medad noted. “She does away with the Jews.”

An Italian public opinion survey in January showed a doubling in the past two years, to 22 percent, of those who find Holocaust Commemoration Day “useless.” Respondents who said the day applied only to Jews remained constant at 16 percent. The percentage of those who knew what the event actually referred to declined from 54 to 44 percent, the Times of Israel reported.

After World War II and the destruction of European Jewry by the Nazis and their countless collaborators, those who declared “Never again!” imagined they heard an echo. But assertions to the effect that the Holocaust represented “man’s inhumanity to man” rather than, primarily, “man’s inhumanity to the Jews” amounted to historical hijacking.

Memory not only fades; without genuine connection to the present it misleads. In the present, the Jewish state is threatened with destruction. Its attempts at self-defense often are tarred as war crimes. Hence, Palestinian Arabs shot while stabbing Jews on Israeli streets may be assumed, as Sweden’s foreign minister suggested last month, to be victims of “extrajudicial killings.”

...

Worse, U.N. actions excuse or encourage killing of Jews.

Anne Bayefsky, director of the Touro Institute on Human Rights and the Holocaust, noted that on January 26, just ahead of Holocaust Commemoration Day, the U.N. Security Council held a debate on “‘The situation in the Middle East, including the Palestinian question.’ The hate speech against the Jewish state flowed uninterrupted for seven hours and was broadcast around the world. Israel was said to be guilty of “crimes against humanity,” “execution” of children, “apartheid,” “racism,” “brutality,” “terrorism,” “war crimes,” “assassinations,” “torture of children,” and “Judaization”—the allegedly vile presence of Jews on Arab-claimed territory.

“Downstairs, the Holocaust exhibit recounted how ordinary people did nothing while their neighbors were rounded up with cries of ‘Juden, Juden, Juden.’”

# ? Feb 18, 2016 03:07

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

IIRC, before the "Final Solution" was decided during the war, the first prisoners of what would become the Death Camps were political dissidents.

# ? Feb 18, 2016 07:28

XMNN: Apr 26, 2008; I am incredibly stupid

TheImmigrant posted:

UK castrates BDS: Putting a stop to public procurement boycotts

Guidance published today makes clear that procurement boycotts by public authorities are inappropriate, outside where formal legal sanctions, embargoes and restrictions have been put in place by the government.

[ ... ]

Town hall boycotts undermine good community relations, poisoning and polarising debate, weakening integration and fuelling anti-Semitism.

No poo poo.

They're also trying to ban councils from divesting themselves from things like the tobacco and arms industries because they're evil lizard men who love money and death above all else.

# ? Feb 18, 2016 11:51

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

quote:

But assertions to the effect that the Holocaust represented �man�s inhumanity to man� rather than, primarily, �man�s inhumanity to the Jews� amounted to historical hijacking.

So basically they're saying that the Jews are a separate category from human beings, if they are not included by the former formulation and need the latter instead?

# ? Feb 18, 2016 11:59

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Cat Mattress posted:

So basically they're saying that the Jews are a separate category from human beings, if they are not included by the former formulation and need the latter instead?

No, the problem is that it's not enough for Jews to be "included" as just one of many groups targeted for extermination, because then (as the article complains about) "Holocaust victims" won't just mean "Jews". Those people's fear is that Jews will no longer be the special victims of WWII, and that they will no longer be able to claim the Holocaust as uniquely and essentially Jewish. They don't want it to be "eleven million", they want it to be "six million Jews and five million others" - and leaving out the five million altogether is considered to be a small price to pay to avoid the possibility of the second phrase morphing into the first one. The intended result is simple:

quote:

Whenever I would say that my parents were survivors of the Holocaust, people would look at me oddly and say, “Oh, I didn’t know you were Jewish?” The impression I got was that people were not aware of any other Holocaust victims except Jews.

When people hear about the Holocaust, they don't think "crime against humanity" or "crime against a number of different groups", they think "crime against the Jewish people". It's thanks to perceptions like this that, for example, no one knows that gay Holocaust survivors were re-imprisoned by the West German government after the war (since homosexuality was still illegal in West Germany) and were not made eligible for Holocaust reparations until 2000.

# ? Feb 18, 2016 15:36

Yardbomb: Jul 11, 2011; What's with the eh... bretonnian dance, sir?

Main Paineframe posted:

When people hear about the Holocaust, they don't think "crime against humanity" or "crime against a number of different groups", they think "crime against the Jewish people". It's thanks to perceptions like this that, for example, no one knows that gay Holocaust survivors were re-imprisoned by the West German government after the war (since homosexuality was still illegal in West Germany) and were not made eligible for Holocaust reparations until 2000.

It sounds weird to say, but yeah it never stops bothering me how so many people want to hijack the holocaust solely for "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE JEWS?" when hey, so does gay suffering, handicapped suffering and so on just get to take the back seat here? If so, for how long? Just trying to figure out how much or apparently how little I should care about the "other" people who also suffered, then in many cases continued to suffer afterwards as well. I'm just a simple gay idiot on the internet, but I'd like to think that people like me being slaughtered matters just the same as any other, you know.

Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Feb 19, 2016

# ? Feb 19, 2016 00:12

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

I've never seen the Communist victims of the Holocaust mentioned. Ever.

# ? Feb 19, 2016 04:49

The Insect Court: Nov 22, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

Main Paineframe posted:

But that's not really what I want to talk about today. What's getting my goose right now is the form of Holocaust denial nobody talks about : a denial that anyone besides Jews died in the Holocaust.

Now lecture us about all those white victims of lynching(there were a significant number, fwiw) in the Jim Crow South and the insidious plot by historians to portray victims of lynching as exclusively black.

MonsieurChoc posted:

I've never seen the Communist victims of the Holocaust mentioned. Ever.

Given that you are aware of Communist victims of the Holocaust then it is obviously true that you have seen them mentioned. Unless you were randomly guessing(i.e. "I've never seen the philatelist victims mentioned!") of course.

# ? Feb 19, 2016 10:10

Torrannor: Apr 27, 2013; ---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE

The Insect Court posted:

Now lecture us about all those white victims of lynching(there were a significant number, fwiw) in the Jim Crow South and the insidious plot by historians to portray victims of lynching as exclusively black.

This is totally different from for example sweeping the Roma who died in the Holocaust under the rug, who as a group were just as persecuted and used as scapegoats as the Jews

# ? Feb 19, 2016 10:28

OzyMandrill: Aug 12, 2013; Look upon my words
and despair

Torrannor posted:

This is totally different from for example sweeping the Roma who died in the Holocaust under the rug, who as a group were just as persecuted and used as scapegoats as the Jews

That's because they still get persecuted across much of Europe now. If they too were 'Victims of the Holocaust', it may make people question the continuing racism.

# ? Feb 19, 2016 10:45

burnishedfume: Mar 8, 2011; You really are a louse...

The Insect Court posted:

Now lecture us about all those white victims of lynching(there were a significant number, fwiw) in the Jim Crow South and the insidious plot by historians to portray victims of lynching as exclusively black.

You realize we can read Main Painframe's post too right, that's not just a bug on your end? Like the part where he expands on that statement by talking about other marginalized minorities like gay people that were victims of the Holocaust. Are you saying gay people in Nazi Germany were a privileged majority a la white southerners?

# ? Feb 19, 2016 19:57

Kim Jong Il: Aug 16, 2003

There isn't really a distinction now between Herzog and 2005 Ariel Sharon, which I enjoy, but others may find distressing. Amir Peretz has rejoined the party in an attempt to ally with Yacimovich to take down Herzog, and now this.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Labor-MK-slams-fing-Herzog-for-delusional-diplomatic-plan-442860

quote:

LMK Hilik Bar, issued surprisingly fierce criticism of his party head, Isaac Herzog, in an audio tape revealed Tuesday evening by Channel 2.

In the tape of his conversation with a female Labor activist, Bar condemns Herzog for telling French President Fran�ois Hollande last week that attempts to broker a twostate solution were currently unrealistic.

He told the activist that if he were not secretary-general of the party, he would have attacked Herzog �10 times as hard� as MK Shelly Yacimovich did Sunday � and less politely.

�What is this unnecessary, dangerous and delusional statement?� Bar asked. By what right, by what authority does he say the two-state solution is irrelevant? What is he, a private individual? Is he a university professor? A talkbacker? No.

He�s the head of the drat Labor Party. He�s the f***ing chairman of the opposition. He�s the head of the largest camp in Israel, which expects him to lead, or at least he�s supposed to be.�

Bar said Herzog would only understand the importance of his post �when [Yesh Atid leader Yair] Lapid finishes off the Labor Party.�

�I told him a thousand times that he can shift to the Center, but if he tries to be a lame copy of Netanyahu, the people will choose the original Bibi or a gray fallback plan like Yair Lapid,� he said.

Herzog said Wednesday that the murder of Shlomit Krigman and the wounding of another woman in Beit Horon on Monday could have been prevented if Israel had a more effective security fence.

Writing on his official Facebook page, Herzog asked why Israel is not separating from the Palestinian Authority in a more effective manner and why it is not building a wall.

Herzog's plan: finish the fence and use it to impose permanent borders, withdrawing from the rest of the West Bank. He wants to de-merge Arab villages beyond the Green Line annexed to Jerusalem in 1967, and put them beyond the fence. Logistically, the key challenge with this idea is you can't do it and then keep Ariel, it needs to be lopped off to reap the benefits from compact borders.

# ? Feb 20, 2016 16:54

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

MonsieurChoc posted:

I've never seen the Communist victims of the Holocaust mentioned. Ever.

You've never lived in a communist country. There, for the longest time the death camps were presented as aimed specifically at (communist) political dissidents.

Kim Jong Il posted:

"A talkbacker"

For some ungodly reason, comments under online news articles are refered to as "talkbacks" (using the English loan-phrase) in Hebrew. They're even more poo poo than the regular run of the mill comments.

Xander77 fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Feb 22, 2016

# ? Feb 22, 2016 22:33

Avshalom: Feb 14, 2012; by Lowtax

Kim Jong Il posted:

Herzog's plan: finish the fence and use it to impose permanent borders, withdrawing from the rest of the West Bank. He wants to de-merge Arab villages beyond the Green Line annexed to Jerusalem in 1967, and put them beyond the fence. Logistically, the key challenge with this idea is you can't do it and then keep Ariel, it needs to be lopped off to reap the benefits from compact borders.

ariel was such a mensch that he willingly surrendered ariel, the city he'd named for himself, to the enemy in order to see through his gracious, beautiful and compassionate plan. he destroyed his own alexandria before she could even begin to grow. but the real city of ariel is deep inside me, it nestles in the valleys of my heart. a warm wind ripples through the head-high sunflowers and the watermelons and butternut pumpkin vines are tangled up all emerald on the ground. it's always sunset inside me but the sun never sets on ariel. my luminescent breasts float on the west horizon, their mellow fleshy light bathing the flanks of the hillside, the walls of my sacred clitoris. the soil of my body gives forth fruit in abundance - oranges and grapes like bruised jellyish and pomegranates the size of a grown man's head. jews must be protected from their enemy and for as long as our people wander unguided the whole world will be our enemy. so we have to wall off the whole world, not just the palestinians. ariel understood this. he understood finally that we are eternal prey

# ? Feb 23, 2016 08:06

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

Herzog is an embarrassing footnote in Labor's history, comparing him to Sharon who was for all intents and purposes a force of nature in Israeli politics is laughable.

# ? Feb 23, 2016 13:17

The Insect Court: Nov 22, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

Torrannor posted:

for example sweeping the Roma who died in the Holocaust under the rug

I agree that we should not attempt to erase the killings by the Nazis of disabled people or gypsies (or Slovenes or Freemasons or homosexuals or Spanish Republicans) from history.

quote:

who as a group were just as persecuted and used as scapegoats as the Jews

Ludicrously incorrect.

# ? Feb 23, 2016 13:29

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

I'd be interested in hearing why you think that the idea of the Roma people being as persecuted and scapegoated as the Jewish people is "ludicrously incorrect."

# ? Feb 23, 2016 15:25

uninterrupted: Jun 20, 2011

uninterrupted fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Sep 11, 2020

# ? Feb 23, 2016 16:14

FreshlyShaven: Sep 2, 2004; Je ne veux pas d'un monde o� la certitude de mourir de faim s'�change contre le risque de mourir d'ennui

Main Paineframe posted:

The blockade is because of the poor relationship between Israel and Hamas, and it's safe to say it wouldn't be in effect (and Gaza's economy would be allowed to function) if Hamas was more cooperative. That said, despite the lack of blockade, it's not like the West Bank is exactly an economic powerhouse either - it functions largely as a source of cheap goods and cheaper labor for Israel.

I'm pretty sure the Gaza blockade was put into effect before Hamas seized power(with devastating economic impact; look at the Gaza greenhouses), though it certainly got much harsher when Hamas took control of the strip. Also, it's not as though Israel has ever rewarded Hamas for moderating its position; when Hamas was in talks with the PA to form a unity government(which would be beholden to the laws of the PA, including a ban on the use of violence against Israel), Israel never supported such a move and in fact, helped sabotage talks by unilaterally breaking the ceasefire and opening a bloody assault on Gaza. And let's not forget how Israel repaid Hamas for stopping rocket attacks by launching Cast Lead, killing roughly a thousand civilians and causing untold damage to Gaza's already underdeveloped infrastructure. Sure, Hamas is pretty bad, but the idea that Gaza wouldn't be subject to collective punishment or economic warfare if it weren't for Hamas' intransigence is just fantasy. Nor has Israel ever even considered giving sovereignty, including the ability to control its own borders, to any Palestinian entity. Under the Camp David proposal for instance, the semi-autonomous bantustan(s) that would constitute Palestine wouldn't even have control of the Palestine-Jordan border(nor would it control most of its natural resources.) It's pretty hard to believe that Israel has any interest in allowing Palestine to thrive.

# ? Feb 23, 2016 18:09

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

There's also the fact that 5 million out of 11 million is a kind of big percent. He might have a point if 95% of those killed were Jewish, but the percent that wasn't Jewish is large enough that it's really hosed up to only specifically mention Jewish people when discussing the Holocaust.

Also one obvious explanation for the number of killed Roma being fewer than the number of killed Jewish people is that there were simply far fewer Roma to kill.

All this being said, it is wrong to drawn a complete equivalence between the Jews and other persecuted groups during the period of the Holocaust. The amount of Nazi rhetoric aimed specifically at Jewish people far outweighed that aimed at other "undesirables." But this isn't really relevant to the topic of omitting mention of the non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust.

# ? Feb 24, 2016 01:07

Harik: Sep 9, 2001; From the hard streets of Moscow
First dog to touch the stars; Plaster Town Cop

uninterrupted posted:

um, they were only a footnote when he studied the holocaust in high school, obviously that means they aren't as important.

More like "Everyone still loving hates the Roma but jews not so much." It's always astounding just how much Europe stereotypes and despises them.

In I/P news:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/23/netanyahu-israel-apartheid-tube-posters-removed-london

The Guardian posted:

The Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, has asked the UK government to remove hundreds of flyposters on London Underground trains put up by pro-Palestinian activists which claim that his country�s policies amount to apartheid.

The posters, designed to look like genuine adverts, were pasted on tube trains by London Palestine Action as part of this year�s Israeli Apartheid Week. Political leaders in Jerusalem and Jewish organisations in the UK condemned the posters.

Netanyahu asked Israel�s foreign ministry director, Dore Gold, to raise the matter with British government officials while on a trip to London. �I asked him to demand from the British government that the posters be removed,� he told parliamentary colleagues, according to reports in the Israeli media.

Yair Lapid, leader of the Yesh Atid party and a former finance minister, said London residents had �entered the underground and found a series of antisemitic, anti-Israel signs calling us an apartheid state, accusing us of torturing children, or murder, of terrible things�.

# ? Feb 24, 2016 01:09

GenderSelectScreen: Mar 7, 2010; I DON'T KNOW EITHER DON'T ASK ME; College Slice

Ytlaya posted:

Also one obvious explanation for the number of killed Roma being fewer than the number of killed Jewish people is that there were simply far fewer Roma to kill.

It has more to do with the fact that the Nazis had a "exterminate on sight" policy for the Roma so their numbers are lessened due to the fact that fewer Roma were captured alive and sent to the camps.

# ? Feb 24, 2016 02:48

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

emanresu tnuocca posted:

Herzog is an embarrassing footnote in Labor's history, comparing him to Sharon who was for all intents and purposes a force of nature in Israeli politics is laughable.

Was he? After his military blunders, he was a nobody for the longest time, until lucking out into control of the party at its very lowest.

I'd cue the relevant Hartzufim link here, but you know - the Israeli internet, memory holes, etc. It's still far easier to get clips of Spitting Image (a show that aired 5 years earlier and aged far more poorly) than one of the few genuinely popular and hard-hitting bits of Israeli satire.

...

Ytlaya posted:

There's also the fact that 5 million out of 11 million is a kind of big percent. He might have a point if 95% of those killed were Jewish, but the percent that wasn't Jewish is large enough that it's really hosed up to only specifically mention Jewish people when discussing the Holocaust.

Huh. Apparently that count includes Russian POWs and Poles, with everyone else generally brought up not quite making it to 7 digits. Odd. I was taught about the Holocaust in the USSR, and Soviet POWs were generally an entirely separate category. (As to Poles exterminated by the Nazis... who? What? They were only ever portrated as enthuisastic collaborators)

# ? Feb 24, 2016 03:40

Avshalom: Feb 14, 2012; by Lowtax

jewish antiziganism is disgusting, wrong and also profoundly lacking in empathy and self-reflection. i consider it even more of a sin than gentile antiziganism, because it was only eighty years ago that we and the romani people were in the exact same situation and somehow we've all forgotten how that felt. about 75% of europe's romani people died in the holocaust. there weren't whole communities of lucky ones early on who managed to escape to safety like we did, so the culture didn't have those emigrant pockets where it could be protected until a new home was found for it. dialects and major lines died out completely and there's no historical record that they even existed in the first place. they don't have any written literature in those languages because they don't have a written language (until like 10 years ago). imagine if the jewish people didn't have ancient texts written in hebrew to piece together a working language from. imagine if those texts had never existed, and all the record we had of biblical hebrew was the prayers that we only learnt verbally - and then suddenly three quarters of us died, and we had to stay for the most part in europe where the persecution (never nazi level but always threatening to spike up there) continued until the current day. think about what that would do to us as people, how we could possibly recover and how hard we'd try to hold onto our culture and protect ourselves. it's still beyond our comprehension but we should be further along the road to understanding than the goyim are, yet the loudest and nastiest deniers of the romani victims of the holocaust are jewish and very frequently descendants of victims themselves. anyway i guess what i'm saying is shut the gently caress up the insect court

# ? Feb 24, 2016 04:00

Avshalom: Feb 14, 2012; by Lowtax

Xander77 posted:

Was he? After his military blunders, he was a nobody for the longest time, until lucking out into control of the party at its very lowest.

luck out, luck out, listen to you! he didn't "luck out" and you know it. g-d sent him that opportunity and he seized it because that was the sort of man that he was. a man of vision, a passionate and courageous individual with lightning judgement. ariel knew what he wanted. he prayed to g-d and his prayers were answered and he didn't poo poo all over that precious gift like most of us, like i continually poo poo all over my congenital precious gift that is a cascade of bouncy breasts so that from afar i take on the appearance of a migratory flesh-coloured ball pit. in fact i think that a strip club that is a ball pit, where all the balls are silicone breasts (solid squeezable silicone) with exquisitely crafted nipples, would be an excellent idea. anyway you can just shut the gently caress up too because although ariel worked himself to death his work continues through me and my child, which is also his child.

# ? Feb 24, 2016 04:09

Avshalom: Feb 14, 2012; by Lowtax

my views on romani rights and holocaust recognition are 100% sincere and free from gimmick btw

# ? Feb 24, 2016 04:12

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 15, 2024 18:26

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Avshalom posted:

jewish antiziganism is disgusting, wrong and also profoundly lacking in empathy and self-reflection. i consider it even more of a sin than gentile antiziganism, because it was only eighty years ago that we and the romani people were in the exact same situation and somehow we've all forgotten how that felt. about 75% of europe's romani people died in the holocaust. there weren't whole communities of lucky ones early on who managed to escape to safety like we did, so the culture didn't have those emigrant pockets where it could be protected until a new home was found for it. dialects and major lines died out completely and there's no historical record that they even existed in the first place. they don't have any written literature in those languages because they don't have a written language (until like 10 years ago). imagine if the jewish people didn't have ancient texts written in hebrew to piece together a working language from. imagine if those texts had never existed, and all the record we had of biblical hebrew was the prayers that we only learnt verbally - and then suddenly three quarters of us died, and we had to stay for the most part in europe where the persecution (never nazi level but always threatening to spike up there) continued until the current day. think about what that would do to us as people, how we could possibly recover and how hard we'd try to hold onto our culture and protect ourselves. it's still beyond our comprehension but we should be further along the road to understanding than the goyim are, yet the loudest and nastiest deniers of the romani victims of the holocaust are jewish and very frequently descendants of victims themselves. anyway i guess what i'm saying is shut the gently caress up the insect court

Seriosuly Avshalom this in general is beautiful. Actually speaking of the ROmani has there been ever an attempt to give them a homeland? (Maybe former Prussia after Law and Justice destroys Poland).

Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Feb 24, 2016

# ? Feb 24, 2016 05:13

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel/Palestine

«‹›697 »