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FAUXTON posted:The idea is that the whole supernatural thing clouded his mind and made him crazy. It's obviously bunk (unless tent non-ghost Finnacum was the picture of sanity which in my expert internet opinion he was not) but it wasn't necessarily the dead Paiute ghost that put the cop there who pulled the trigger, just that the dead Paiute ghost that made Finnacum a raving lunatic. Yes, it's more the idea that there's some mystery around anything that happened that might require a supernatural explanation that tickles me.
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Feb 18, 2016 16:00
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:And reality slowly slides into becoming shadowrun. I guess Finicum should have implanted wired reflexes, then.
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Feb 18, 2016 16:05
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Is it bad that this reminded me of this Parks and Recreation moment? 
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Feb 18, 2016 16:06
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Rowdy patrouts.
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Feb 18, 2016 16:28
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Roland Jones posted:Is it bad that this reminded me of this Parks and Recreation moment? I think that's exactly what's happening here.
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Feb 18, 2016 16:30
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Replace 'Matchbox 20' with 'lovely evangelical sing-a-longs' and it'll probably be on point for the next 200 years.
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Feb 18, 2016 17:17
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What if America is built on an ancient Indian burial ground?
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Feb 18, 2016 17:22
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Hermetic posted:I guess Finicum should have implanted wired reflexes, then. Well, he was wired...
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Feb 18, 2016 17:22
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Bar Crow posted:What if America is built on an ancient Indian burial ground? Considering we buried most of them would you really say it was built on, rather as a burial ground?
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Feb 18, 2016 17:33
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Jarmak posted:You're out of your loving mind if you think they're going to send him to supermax. I understand this is somewhat of a semantic point, and what you're saying is he's never physically injured anyone. But I think it's important to clarify the crimes he's charged with absolutely are considered violent acts. He's charged with assault. His 2014 actions created a tense situation where a nervous trigger finger or the sound of a car backfiring could easily have led to a massacre; it's only through a fair amount of luck this didn't happen. If his indictment is to believed, he gave people PTSD. It goes on. Does he need to be in supermax? I'm not sure anyone does, or that such places should even exist. But there are a lot of supermax prisons which means a lot of people are in them who don't need to be. I definitely would not be amazed if the same happened to an armed insurrectionist with thousand of followers, whom the government is trying to make an example out of.
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Feb 18, 2016 17:47
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Hermetic posted:Guys, I just realized... But what about their guns?
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Feb 18, 2016 17:48
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FAUXTON posted:Considering we buried most of them Lol if you think America gave its enemies that courtesy. But really, most of the Indians died from disease. We obviously didn’t bury those.
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Feb 18, 2016 17:52
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Yes, of course the Bundys are violent. I know everyone here is smart enough to not pretend you have to pull the trigger to be violent. And while I agree that if I were emperor of the world i would probably not put them in a supermax, I'm not. And people with comparable offenses have been placed in the CMU at Terre Haute and Marion. And that's not entirely absurd. The point of the CMU is to stop people from continuing to organize and lead criminal activity from prison. How likely do you think it is these people don't try to keep this train rolling post-conviction?
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Feb 18, 2016 17:55
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McNerd posted:If the indictment docs taught me anything it's that Bundy thinks federal courts are rigged at the best of times, and he has a 0-4 record in them, so I think he's the rare sovcit who knows his Jedi mind tricks won't work on the judge. I doubt the plea deal would be much better, so he'll probably stake everything on a jury of True Americans coming to his rescue. Not sure whether he's delusional enough to be confident in that, though, or what the other defendants might think about it. If the term "Jury Nullification" isn't brought up in these court cases I'm going to be stunned.
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Feb 18, 2016 18:02
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McNerd posted:I understand this is somewhat of a semantic point, and what you're saying is he's never physically injured anyone. But I think it's important to clarify the crimes he's charged with absolutely are considered violent acts. He's charged with assault. His 2014 actions created a tense situation where a nervous trigger finger or the sound of a car backfiring could easily have led to a massacre; it's only through a fair amount of luck this didn't happen. If his indictment is to believed, he gave people PTSD. It goes on. There's only one completely supermax prison - ADX Florence - while there are several prisons that have supermax units.
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Feb 18, 2016 18:07
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Man, someone needs to make a movie of this after it's all over, if just for the dildo swipe scene. *Ammon standing in the office with ritzheimer looking over a stack of boxes* Ammon; "I told ya boys, america is with us!" Tragically their smiles of joy turn to bewildered looks of confusion as box after box, when opened, is stuffed full of rubber dongs and dick shaped candies. Ammon; "What the hell is this?!" *Finacum looks through the doorway* Finacum; "Hey boss, you're gonna want to see this" *The gang all walks outside to see two nobodies rolling a drum up to the building and wrestle it up on end. Ammon yanks the packing slip off the top, reads it, crumples it in rage and throws it aside while stomping into the office ranting.* Cue the camera focusing on the crumpled slip drifting into view which reads "Item received; 1 55 Gal Drum Personal Lubricant" And at the bottom where the notes section is reads "So you can get your freak on"
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Feb 18, 2016 18:49
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SocketWrench posted:Man, someone needs to make a movie of this after it's all over, if just for the dildo swipe scene. Okay, but they have to get Jorge Garcia to play Sean Anderson. No lesser man will do. (I just want to see Hurley rant about killing people)
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Feb 18, 2016 18:56
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Kazak_Hstan posted:People can start in minimum security, depending on the severity of their offense. People who start in a higher level of custody can move to a camp / minimum facility through behavior. There is a matrix that guides the process, and factors in things like previous record during incarceration, indivisible of escape probability (i.e. If you up for a life bid you are unlikely to start in a camp as your incentive to flee is higher), severity / violence of offense, etc. IIRC generally long sentences for violent crimes will put you in Medium security or higher and preclude you from going down the chain. Bernie Madoff, for example, will spend the rest of his life in Medium Security, which isn't supermax, but it's not exactly cushy, either. Even with Madoff getting sent off to what was basically a resort prison (for medium security, anyway) he's been beaten up more than once. I expect that none of the ringleaders of this operation will get any kind of serious plea deal and if they do it will be to make their imprisonment marginally more comfortable, not to reduce their sentences. They have what amounts to hundreds of hours of videotaped crimes and confessions to crimes, there is absolutely no doubt of their guilt. I don't think Cliven, Ryan or Ammon will ever see the light of day. Ammon and Ryan might have gotten by with reduced sentences if LaVoy Finicum hadn't suicided by cop, but I think the fact that there is now a body count associated with the Bundies is enough to dissuade any sympathetic judges or jurors. I expect LaVoy Finicum will get brought up a lot if this goes to trial. McNerd posted:I understand this is somewhat of a semantic point, and what you're saying is he's never physically injured anyone. But I think it's important to clarify the crimes he's charged with absolutely are considered violent acts. He's charged with assault. His 2014 actions created a tense situation where a nervous trigger finger or the sound of a car backfiring could easily have led to a massacre; it's only through a fair amount of luck this didn't happen. If his indictment is to believed, he gave people PTSD. It goes on. I want to point out that supermax is basically designed to house high profile prisoners at high risk of escape, terrorists especially. While I don't think they're going to send Cliven to supermax, I also don't think it's an impossibility. You don't have to be a murderer to get into Supermax, either - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Konopka - this guy didn't kill a single person and he's going to be in Supermax until 2019. I would argue the magnitude of his crimes were significantly lower than those of Cliven, on top of Cliven now having a body count attached to his terror cell.
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Feb 18, 2016 19:07
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SocketWrench posted:Man, someone needs to make a movie of this after it's all over, if just for the dildo swipe scene. If anyone wants to help, I offer https://www.malheurthemusical.com I really think that this needs to be a musical (obviously) since each super over-dramatic scene just BEGS to sung!
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Feb 18, 2016 20:49
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kartikeya posted:Either way, Malheur militants or some other group or (likely) a combination of the two isn't really the point. The point is people were terrorized and that's not great. Whether the FBI or local law enforcement could have actually done something about that, I don't know. That's actually the question I'd like to ask; in hindsight, was it possible to prevent them from having to go through that without having a shootout in the streets of Burns, and if so, why wasn't it done, and if not, what can be done to prevent such a situation going forward, because, you know, that wasn't a good thing. I'm just irritable when I see it downplayed as Not a Big Deal. That's easy to say when it's not your (general you, not you in specific, theflyingorc) town being filled up with heavily armed nutjobs you don't know anything about. It's fundamentally impossible to prevent things like anonymous death threats or tire-slashings - at least, not without absurd violations of civil liberties. If you know exactly who's responsible, that's one thing - but if you don't, then the best you can do (without a massive real-time surveillance program surpassing everything the NSA has pulled so far) is an overall increased police presence in the community. The only thing we know about the various threateners are that they were Bundy supporters - but since there's no guarantee that all Bundy supporters went out to the occupation, it can't be solved just by sealing off the occupation. That is the real problem with dealing with terrorism, mass violence, and other ideological crime: it's basically impossible to identify and flag everyone who holds a certain belief for surveillance or arrest, so even if you actively work to suppress such movements, you're only nailing the people who willingly and openly identify themselves in public with those beliefs. In fact, suppressing and oppressing those people just makes it less likely that people who hold those beliefs will openly announce it to the world. In other words, they just go underground, radicalizing further and becoming more difficult to monitor or infiltrate.
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Feb 18, 2016 21:00
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ChlamydiaJones posted:If anyone wants to help, I offer https://www.malheurthemusical.com Is this going to be like The Producers where one of us has to seduce Shawna Cox for funding? Because I'm not sure how that affects my answer.
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Feb 18, 2016 21:04
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Did you guys notice the civil forfeiture part of the Bundy indictment? They're literally going to take his guns. I'm sure this will be received well.
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Feb 18, 2016 21:06
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saintonan posted:Did you guys notice the civil forfeiture part of the Bundy indictment? They're literally going to take his guns. I'm sure this will be received well. Also his unvaccinated feral cattle that will more than likely have to be put down.
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Feb 18, 2016 21:21
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ChlamydiaJones posted:If anyone wants to help, I offer https://www.malheurthemusical.com Would kickstart this. 
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Feb 18, 2016 21:26
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Mirthless posted:on top of Cliven now having a body count attached to his terror cell. Now? There has been a body count tied to him ever since people from his ranch went and murdered cops.
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Feb 18, 2016 21:31
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Evil Fluffy posted:Now? There has been a body count tied to him ever since people from his ranch went and murdered cops. He and his immediately distanced themselves from those two, claiming nobody liked them and they left early. Unfortunately there's no real way to tie them together since they weren't actually with the bundys when they killed those cops.
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Feb 18, 2016 21:35
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Close enough for me, and I'd love to hear why anyone there deserves the benefit of the doubt when they say the two were somehow distinguishable, and forced out, from the rest of the crazy going on.
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Feb 18, 2016 21:42
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Close enough for me, and I'd love to hear why anyone there deserves the benefit of the doubt when they say the two were somehow distinguishable, and forced out, from the rest of the crazy going on. Oh yeah, I agree. If not straight up conspiracy charges, at least charges to incitement. unfortunately the legality of proving that Cliven had a connection to them beyond them going to his ranch is kind of iffy. As a comparison imagine being charged with murder because one of your classmates grew up and became a serial killer. Yeah you both could have been friends, even close in your classroom and you might have at one point talked to him about killing all those freaking ginger kids that he killed, but it's almost impossible to prove and would be a miscarriage of justice if they did. It's a really lovely analogy but I'd really rather not have a precedent set where you can be arrested for someone's actions just because you both went to the same place for a period of time.
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Feb 18, 2016 21:47
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E-Tank posted:Oh yeah, I agree. If not straight up conspiracy charges, at least charges to incitement. unfortunately the legality of proving that Cliven had a connection to them beyond them going to his ranch is kind of iffy. Joining bundy's terrorist organization is a lot different than them going to high school together.
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Feb 18, 2016 21:52
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E-Tank posted:It's a really lovely analogy but I'd really rather not have a precedent set where you can be arrested for someone's actions just because you both went to the same place for a period of time. Scrolling up, I don't think the original conversation was about arresting him for that crime, but rather, using it to support sentencing him to a more secure facility. I'm not sure if "innocent until proven guilty" applies to that question.
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Feb 18, 2016 21:56
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McNerd posted:Is this going to be like The Producers where one of us has to seduce Shawna Cox for funding? Because I'm not sure how that affects my answer. Worry not friend! You'll be merely loving the corporate entity of Shawna Cox!
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Feb 18, 2016 22:01
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OAquinas posted:So they'll be eligible for parole in 6 months Wow, no kidding. Pete and Ammon crashed a four-wheeler into a moving BLM truck, tried to break into said truck, and then when stopped by law enforcement they threatened the officer, shoved him, and tried to throw a rock at him. Those two are going to spend a while in federal prison. And so are the other three that were charged. Sixteen separate charges, plus five forfeiture claims, which essentially add up to "if they get convicted on any of these charges, the government will seize all of their guns, all of Cliven's cattle, and three million dollars". So much for these guys getting off easy!
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Feb 18, 2016 22:06
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Yeah I'm not saying anyone there should be on the hook legally. Just that it's laughable to be giving that much credence to a bunch of people in the middle of a federal crime who said such crazy poo poo that it turned off today's GOP.
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Feb 18, 2016 22:08
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Goodpancakes posted:Worry not friend! You'll be merely loving the corporate entity of Shawna Cox! As a boatsexual I may be able to offer some advice.
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Feb 18, 2016 22:11
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Edit: Dammit 
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Feb 18, 2016 22:11
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saintonan posted:Did you guys notice the civil forfeiture part of the Bundy indictment? They're literally going to take his guns. I'm sure this will be received well. DeathSandwich posted:Also his unvaccinated feral cattle that will more than likely have to be put down. A smile crept onto my face while imagining the Feds seizing Bundy's guns and killing his cattle with them.
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Feb 18, 2016 22:12
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http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/state_police_board_seeks_inves.html#incart_big-photo Sheriff Palmer of grant county possibly getting some attention.
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Feb 18, 2016 22:13
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E-Tank posted:It's a really lovely analogy but I'd really rather not have a precedent set where you can be arrested for someone's actions just because you both went to the same place for a period of time. That place, in the example of the bundy syndicate, being the illegal occupation of federal property, hustling federal employees out of their place of work and preventing them from returning. Classroom whispers this ain't.
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Feb 18, 2016 22:48
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Doctor Butts posted:A smile crept onto my face while imagining the Feds seizing Bundy's guns and killing his cattle with them. Leave the cows out of this 
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Feb 19, 2016 02:36
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snorch posted:Leave the cows out of this Congratulations, you already care more for Bundy's cattle than Bundy ever did!
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Feb 19, 2016 02:39
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