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Oh well the judge ruled on it, I guess that precludes criticism of the judge's ruling. Nobody here has any information the judge and attorneys don't. Close the thread down. Once a judge rules on something there is literally zero remaining legitimate discussion to be had. We should probably close down all law reviews as well, given the amount of time they spend criticizing opinions judges have already issued.
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Feb 20, 2016 19:20
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Kazak_Hstan posted:Yeah how is this person who already traveled hundreds of miles to commit armed insurrection against the government and declare no laws apply to her going to skip out on court or commit further acts against federal public land managers. It's not like she's a folk hero among the sovcit / land rights crowd or anything. We can definitely assume she won't be in contact with that crowd. It's not like she's going back to Idaho where she is surrounded by federal lands or anything. no you smarmy little poo poo, i mean how is she actually going to do all that? where is she going to hide? given that you think she's going to "reoffend", what place do you think she will occupy next, with who's help? do you think she's just going to pick up a revolver, sit her rear end down on a federally owned stretch of tundra and hope someone sets up a loving website or what exactly is going on in your head when you pee yourself in terror at night
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Feb 20, 2016 19:21
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idk where on earth would someone go and hide in the united states of america its so small and overcrowded no one would dream of going on the lam there
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Feb 20, 2016 19:24
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Kazak_Hstan posted:Yeah these charges are obviously no different than shoplifting from a seven eleven, that's a really good point. Not complying with police when they arrest you means no bail? That should go well for every protester ever. I'm not being contrarian, you're spouting some detestable freep level authoritarian bullshit that would get dogpiled in an instant on this forum if it was anyone other then a bunch of conservative rednecks that people want to see get theirs. Pretrial confinement is an absolutely last resort option that lends massive economic coercion to the criminal justice system. Lets try this again here: innocent until proven guilty
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Feb 20, 2016 19:25
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ToastyPotato posted:No one should ever criticize or discuss the decisions of a court! No one here is a judge! Kazak_Hstan posted:Oh well the judge ruled on it, I guess that precludes criticism of the judge's ruling. The trial hasn't actually happened yet though? And she is yet to be found guilty of a crime? She will be, we all know that. But in the mean time, I happen to agree with letting her go back to work on the condition that she behaves herself and shows up to court. Is that so controversial?
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Feb 20, 2016 19:31
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Yeah if I don't have the specific latitude and longitude of sandy Andersons next offense she must obviously pose zero risk. Here, let me spell it out for you: -she already did it once, showing she is willing -she already defied dozens of lawful orders from the FBI, showing she has no respect for what the law tells her to do -she is viewed as a hero by the PPN / three percenters / sov cit crowd -that crowd is itching for further confrontation -those organizations are dispersed throughout the American west -those organizations have really fancy things like "email accounts" "cell phones" and "cars" -things like "email accounts" "cell phones" and "cars" make it very easy to get in touch with Anderson and take her somewhere -we all saw how detached from reality Anderson was through the later stages of the standoff. She grasped at any tiny straw that allowed her to rationalize away her impending arrest. -there is no reason to believe she won't similarly rationalize away her impending trial and find some hole to hide in Do you need me to draw you a picture? Or would that be too smarmy?
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Feb 20, 2016 19:32
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Jarmak posted:Not complying with police when they arrest you means no bail? That should go well for every protester ever. And you are spouting utterly laughable false equivalencies. Hey guys! Remember when the final four occupiers linked arms on a sidewalk and chanted slogans while the police carried them away? Yeah I definitely remember the part of this where these people looked like any protester ever.
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Feb 20, 2016 19:35
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oh wow she's done it before and cellphones exist, lock her up and throw away the key, this is definitely the right thing to do and won't bite us in the rear end when people apply the same kind of logic to a black guy with a joint or whatever
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Feb 20, 2016 19:39
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I'm gonna guess she appeared sufficiently pathetic and remorseful in the court room that the judge figured she was just crazy and was going along with it out of peer pressure, and in the chance that wasn't true they still have her husband, decreasing the likelihood of her trying anything.
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Feb 20, 2016 19:40
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many johnnys posted:The trial hasn't actually happened yet though? And she is yet to be found guilty of a crime? The judge obviously thinks she will, and I don't think it's all that unlikely, but it's not an obvious, open-and-shut question. I think it's entirely reasonable to discuss whether she should have been granted bail. e: I think if a black guy with a joint was holed up pointing a gun at the FBI for a month talking about how he'd rather die than surrender, then people might question the decision to grant him bail, too. XMNN fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Feb 20, 2016 |
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Feb 20, 2016 19:40
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XMNN posted:I don't think that's controversial, if Cliven Bundy was going to turn up to court, he should be let out until his trial, the point in dispute is whether or not Sandy will turn up. Yeah, I see what you mean. My earlier post about not-having-additional-info was weaksauce, so that's my bad. I do believe that the likelihood of her getting more sovcits on her side to any meaningful effect is extremely low, considering that they didn't bother to show to the crime in question in the first place.
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Feb 20, 2016 19:45
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botany posted:oh wow she's done it before and cellphones exist, lock her up and throw away the key, this is definitely the right thing to do and won't bite us in the rear end when people apply the same kind of logic to a black guy with a joint or whatever She hasn't done it before, she has no criminal history, he's arguing that she should be denied bail on the basis of crimes she hasn't been convicted of yet. The "they violently resisted the feds" bit loses a lot of bite when push comes to shove she ended up surrendering without actually doing that.
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Feb 20, 2016 19:47
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XMNN posted:e: I think if a black guy with a joint was holed up pointing a gun at the FBI for a month talking about how he'd rather die than surrender, then people might question the decision to grant him bail, too. and when has she done any of that?
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Feb 20, 2016 19:47
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approx jan 2nd to feb 11th 2016
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Feb 20, 2016 19:51
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Jarmak posted:She hasn't done it before, she has no criminal history, he's arguing that she should be denied bail on the basis of crimes she hasn't been convicted of yet. Oh now you're staking out the "it's not violent until someone pulls the trigger" argument. Come on you're smarter than that. or maybe not. You were comparing them to "protesters" a minute ago. How long before you argue they were just camping?
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Feb 20, 2016 19:53
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XMNN posted:approx jan 2nd to feb 11th 2016 yeah i vividly remember all those FBI agents getting guns pointed at them at approximately that time
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Feb 20, 2016 19:53
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Kazak_Hstan posted:Oh now you're staking out the "it's not violent until someone pulls the trigger" argument. Come on you're smarter than that. or maybe not. You were comparing them to "protesters" a minute ago. How long before you argue they were just camping? I'm sorry that you don't understand that we apply the law equally to everyone (in theory). They threatened violence, they never actually carried out violence, you'll note this in their charges.
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Feb 20, 2016 20:06
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i think that people who threaten to shoot the government with guns on video should go to jail
atomicthumbs fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Feb 20, 2016 |
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Feb 20, 2016 20:08
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atomicthumbs posted:i think that people who threaten to shoot the government with guns on video should go to jail I agree, and they will 
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Feb 20, 2016 20:16
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Jarmak posted:I'm sorry that you don't understand that we apply the law equally to everyone (in theory). They threatened violence, they never actually carried out violence, you'll note this in their charges. Let's look at the law. 18 USC 16 The term “crime of violence” means— (a) an offense that has as an element the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against the person or property of another, or (b) any other offense that is a felony and that, by its nature, involves a substantial risk that physical force against the person or property of another may be used in the course of committing the offense. You can claim they did not violently resist the government all you want. The law says otherwise.
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Feb 20, 2016 20:23
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"These domestic terrorists with outstanding warrants who barricaded themselves on federal property and threatened to shoot anyone who tried to arrest them should be released on bail so we don't destroy the bail system altogether! Also you are the real racist!"
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Feb 20, 2016 20:27
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Kazak_Hstan posted:Let's look at the law. Yes, threatening violence is a crime of violence you obtuse gently caress. We let people out on bail accused of poo poo like rape and aggravated assault, threatening violence that is never followed through with does not in anyway indicate someone is a danger to the community worthy of denying bail.
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Feb 20, 2016 20:34
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chitoryu12 posted:"These domestic terrorists with outstanding warrants who barricaded themselves on federal property and threatened to shoot anyone who tried to arrest them should be released on bail so we don't destroy the bail system altogether! Also you are the real racist!" This, only without the irony. And not all of them, just the one with no criminal record and full time employment.
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Feb 20, 2016 20:35
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I'm pretty sure they stick an ankle bracelet on her too, and monitor where she is.
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Feb 20, 2016 20:44
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chitoryu12 posted:"These domestic terrorists with outstanding warrants who barricaded themselves on federal property and threatened to shoot anyone who tried to arrest them should be released on bail so we don't destroy the bail system altogether! Also you are the real racist!" yeah that's kinda exactly the point, good job
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Feb 20, 2016 20:45
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Jarmak posted:The "they violently resisted the feds" bit loses a lot of bite when push comes to shove she ended up surrendering without actually doing that. Jarmak posted:Yes, threatening violence is a crime of violence you obtuse gently caress.
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Feb 20, 2016 20:51
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What gas station does she work at? Might be worth a road trip to have her clean the windows of a Prius.
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Feb 20, 2016 21:10
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I would be a lot more critical of the judge if he was letting more than just her out on bail. As it stands I don't find much objectionable about it. Given how the FBI has handled it in the past they are definitely going to be watching her and given how stupid these people are she will probably be broadcasting most of her movements to social media already.
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Feb 20, 2016 21:15
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The Fuzzy Hulk posted:What gas station does she work at? Might be worth a road trip to have her clean the windows of a Prius. Go to the gas station in Riggins. If she's not there then go to the other gas station in Riggins. fin.
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Feb 20, 2016 21:40
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https://www.google.com/search?q=rig...XLxa56llupUM%3A Riggins is at least pretty
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Feb 20, 2016 22:08
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Kazak_Hstan posted:Cool lets let Cliven Bundy out too, what was his criminal record before Bundy ranch? Not "criminal record," "criminal history." He had the 2014 issue as his history, and even though unresolved, and therefor "innocent" the court can still consider, not for punishment, but for admin considerations like bail (or ability to pay bail, or roots in the community).
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Feb 20, 2016 22:27
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To reiterate: a functional Justice system applies equally to assholes who don't deserve it. She's still going to suffer plenty, but only after due process. chitoryu12 posted:"These domestic terrorists with outstanding warrants who barricaded themselves on federal property and threatened to shoot anyone who tried to arrest them should be released on bail so we don't destroy the bail system altogether! Also you are the real racist!" Do any of you actually think this woman is going to do anything, especially given that she had no previous involvement with the movement and her husband and the entire leadership are still in jail?
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Feb 20, 2016 22:32
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Voyager I posted:Do any of you actually think this woman is going to do anything, especially given that she had no previous involvement with the movement and her husband and the entire leadership are still in jail? We didn't expect them to occupy a federal facility. I think her skipping bail is MORE likely than the actions she has already taken.
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Feb 20, 2016 22:41
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That's not a real answer to the question. I get it, she's an rear end in a top hat and I don't like her either, but she hasn't actually been convicted of a crime yet and pretrial detention having stringent requirements is unambiguously a good thing.
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Feb 20, 2016 22:47
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Goodpancakes posted:I was a cook in the national guard for 10 years and our mobile kitchen was pulled by a big rear end truck with a 50cal m2 mount out the cab top. So that landed us cooks the job of shooting the 50 Cal during our two week camps. They would just pour 10w 40 car oil in the thing and start shooting. When the range day was over they would stick the various crews who shot on gun cleaning duty. Combine that with not a whole lot to do and they made sure these things were spotless. 4 guys and a couple hours. We said gently caress that and made our way into the kitchen. They were basically unused at this point during our two weeks. But they had enough to setup and turn on the dish washer. We sent the 50 Cal through a couple times and dropped it off. The first Sargent was relishing the thought of white gloving this thing since it took all of 20 minutes. You could see his the delight in his eyes as he pulled out a bunch qtips. This quickly changed when he could find nothing on the gun. He was very confused at how we got it that clean that quickly, and was even more so by why it was so warm.  you're the best fuckin' American ever
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Feb 20, 2016 22:47
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botany posted:oh wow she's done it before and cellphones exist, lock her up and throw away the key, this is definitely the right thing to do and won't bite us in the rear end when people apply the same kind of logic to a black guy with a joint or whatever Jesus loving christ you and Jarmak are being so willfully dense there's literally no point in discussing poo poo with you
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Feb 20, 2016 22:48
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Devor posted:We didn't expect them to occupy a federal facility. No it isn't, because it was literally all about her husband. The only reason she, David, and...Jeff, was it? were even arrested was because they held out because of Sean. He's already in prison, she's done.
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Feb 20, 2016 22:48
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botany posted:yeah that's kinda exactly the point, good job "This is a specific case where it makes no sense to release a person on bail considering they have stated they have no respect or belief in the authority of the US Law system and the group she was a part of how willingly hid fugitives and kept them from court before" "But what if they do this to a dude who stole a candy bar??" You're an idiot and should probably just stop
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Feb 20, 2016 22:51
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Jarmak posted:*only applies to white people who's politics I don't like. Salt. Grow up.
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Feb 20, 2016 22:53
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Voyager I posted:To reiterate: a functional Justice system applies equally to assholes who don't deserve it. I can't think of a person more likely to flee while on bail than a sovcit crazy person who knows the government's going to try to put her away for a decade+ and who has huge support from that movement, who have shown they're totally cool with aiding and abetting people they view as their own when the government's after them
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Feb 20, 2016 22:56
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