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TooMuchAbstraction posted:The problem for me in 1UPT is that it takes economy almost entirely out of consideration. The great thing about Civ4's doomstacks (aside from the fact that the AI was actually capable of using them effectively) was that they were almost literally an extension of your civ's economy. A bigger civ with a stronger economy could afford to field a larger army, and therefore would win any direct conflict. Whereas in Civ5 that big civ's ability to field a large army is irrelevant because it can only bring a tiny portion of that army to bear on any given conflict. The biggest fights tend to have fewer than a dozen units actually involved in them, up until the point where you get air units (which throw 1UPT out the window). Part of the problem here is that unit progression is extremely linear. There's generally only 1 unit of each role at any given point in the tech tree, so you never really have to make a choice between unit quality vs. quantity, it's just quantity. When Civ games do attempt to diversify it generally fails to present a meaningful choice because typically one unit winds up dominating its contemporaries.
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Feb 19, 2016 23:25
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1 UPT is great for simultaneous MP, where you get the joys of clickwar (and the sadness of first move).TooMuchAbstraction posted:The problem for me in 1UPT is that it takes economy almost entirely out of consideration. The great thing about Civ4's doomstacks (aside from the fact that the AI was actually capable of using them effectively) was that they were almost literally an extension of your civ's economy. A bigger civ with a stronger economy could afford to field a larger army, and therefore would win any direct conflict. Whereas in Civ5 that big civ's ability to field a large army is irrelevant because it can only bring a tiny portion of that army to bear on any given conflict. The biggest fights tend to have fewer than a dozen units actually involved in them, up until the point where you get air units (which throw 1UPT out the window). Again, mostly MP here, but it's not uncommon to hit 20 or 30 units in any of UU, compbow/chariots, xbow, or arty pushes. As long as you are playing on a map with a sane distribution of mountains (such as NQ Pangea), actually having to deal with the terrain and having tactical decisions regarding positioning are both good things IMO. That said, there is always going to be micromanagement scaling issues, particularly late game. Something simple like rally points and/or group selection (get as close to this point as you can) would help a lot.
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Feb 19, 2016 23:32
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Gabriel Pope posted:Part of the problem here is that unit progression is extremely linear. There's generally only 1 unit of each role at any given point in the tech tree, so you never really have to make a choice between unit quality vs. quantity, it's just quantity. When Civ games do attempt to diversify it generally fails to present a meaningful choice because typically one unit winds up dominating its contemporaries. Not just that, but many units are downright useless. In fact, some unit TYPES are useless, with their job better done by other units.
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Feb 20, 2016 01:39
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Made worse by bad upgrade paths (I'm looking at you Pikemen).
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Feb 20, 2016 01:46
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The White Dragon posted:Yeah, Endless Legend was all right but I really didn't care for the combat. There was way too much opaque math going on. Civ 5 is fairly transparent: it tells you all your modifiers and you can understand why a unit is doing the amount of damage it does, and turn order is as straightforward as you like. Endless was all AI commands and macromanagement that may or may not listen to you depending on how it rolls initiative on that given turn, the pathing was trash, and ranged units were so overpowered because of these very problems that you're at a severe disadvantage if your race doesn't have a ranged option in the first two eras. Wargamey would imply it's good  (actually it would imply you spend a bunch of time arguing with/for grognards and it has a bunch of impenetrable bullshit, so nevermind, maybe you're right) I'm serious about Warlock 1/2 though, Warlock 2 in particular with the Renaissance mod (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=493257789&searchtext=) is pretty drat fun if you like 1UPT hex based wargame action. It's not Civ though, it isn't an empire builder, it's a game about hilarious broken units and spells and buffs and upgrades.
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Feb 20, 2016 02:26
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Honestly the Civ I/II system (stack as much as you like but at risk of losing the whole stack if its best defender loses), simplistic as it was, worked better in practice than anything that followed. You could freely move your army around and stack the muskets to defend the cannon, but the risk made it undesirable to stack your whole army together.
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Feb 20, 2016 05:51
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I might say something like. Three of the same unit per tile, plus another three -- so one melee, one ranged. Great Generals could boost these numbers slightly or provide other perk benefits by being attached to a unit. Possibly some unit maintenance benefits to 'grouping up'. Also, automatic time-appropriate names for unit clusters.
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Feb 20, 2016 12:49
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That's not significantly different from the Civ IV doomstack system.
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Feb 20, 2016 15:30
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So I'm playing with the goonpack installed. My caravels can't enter the ocean but I saw another civ's do it. Any idea how to fix this?
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Feb 20, 2016 23:52
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Dragonwagon posted:So I'm playing with the goonpack installed. My caravels can't enter the ocean but I saw another civ's do it. Any idea how to fix this? You're not playing as Korea, right?
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Feb 21, 2016 00:04
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majormonotone posted:I hate micromanagement in strategy games quote:I like 1UPT better I don't understand.
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Feb 21, 2016 00:07
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:You're not playing as Korea, right? Playing as Venice. Looks like I needed to research astronomy. None of the tooltips mentioned this.
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Feb 21, 2016 00:33
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Fister Roboto posted:I don't understand. 1UPT is really simple I guess it's more a specific kind of micromanagement I don't like. I don't like having to individually go into every city and check up on everything and modify things and make sure it's doing okay, especially once I have like 10+ cities. It's a huge chore and I don't mind that Civ V streamlined it Shuffling units on a map is comparatively simpler
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Feb 21, 2016 00:44
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majormonotone posted:1UPT is really simple When I had a lot of cities in Civ4, I just set up massive build queues and then would ignore cities for centuries at a time. Probably not optimal, but who cares?
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Feb 21, 2016 00:50
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The Galactic Civilizations series has had a pretty nice alternative to the doomstack/1UPT system. Each ship has a logistics cost depending on its size, so if you have a logistics of 10 and a fighter costs 2 logistics then your stacks are limited to 5 fighters, for example. It's far and away the best model that I've seen and it's weird that other 4x games like Civ haven't picked up on it.
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Feb 21, 2016 00:52
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It finally occurred to me the other day that maybe Brian Reynolds, who studied philosophy in college, was trying to make a statement with how in Civ2 the tech "philosophy" doesn't have any practical use except as a prereq for other techs (unless you happen to research it first).
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Feb 21, 2016 01:07
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Gort posted:If this is what puts you off Civ 5, please try the Community Patch. It fixes that problem by completely revamping the policy trees and happiness system.
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Feb 21, 2016 04:27
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James The 1st posted:Nice, I'll try it out. It looks really good from the change log. I just tried this and it feels like it makes the AI marginally more competent, though not necessarily (seemingly) much smarter or more aggressive. It also gives you a lot more things to do, which may or may not be a good thing to you. I liked it, even though I didn't really "get" the corporations mechanic and wasn't a fan of how annoying it makes barbarians. It also didn't seem to aggressively rebalance ideologies or otherwise make them really interesting (the way it does with the regular policy trees), which I think is kind of a shame. (They also missed a golden opportunity to rename the ideologies Capitalism/Socialism/Fascism, which made me sad since they renamed every other policy tree to make more sense.  )It definitely makes the AI more active, and makes dealing with city states less of a costly chore. The increase across the board in most yields for most things is also great; the game doesn't feel stupidly slow on standard anymore, and actually felt too fast on quick, which I think is kind of awesome. It also appears to have divorced Great Engineer/Great Scientist/Great Merchant rates (I wasn't sure on this, but it didn't seem like generating one made the others take longer), and has made all three feel way more useful. I wasn't quite clear on their new unhappiness system. Their standards for what constitutes being uncultured/poor/unsafe seem rather arbitrary or steep, but it's also much easier to maintain happiness and being unhappy wasn't an automatic death sentence. I wasn't sure what I was meant to do with luxuries anymore either. Overall from two games I'd give the mod a positive rating, even if it isn't perfect in every respect and I probably need to learn more about it. Lightning Knight fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Feb 21, 2016 |
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Feb 21, 2016 06:47
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Dragonwagon posted:Playing as Venice. Looks like I needed to research astronomy. None of the tooltips mentioned this. How do you have a Caravel before Astronomy, when Astronomy's the requirement to get Caravels?
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Feb 21, 2016 08:02
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Bloodly posted:How do you have a Caravel before Astronomy, when Astronomy's the requirement to get Caravels? Sounds like he is playing with the CBP where Caravels come before Astronomy. They come with Compass in CBP.
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Feb 21, 2016 08:10
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Since he's using GoonPack, I can confirm it's CBP changing Caravels position in the tech tree. Speaking of which I've had an exceptionally busy semester so I haven't been able to patch GoonPack like I wanted. The original post now contains a list of the documented problems so if anyone wants to continue work on GoonPack you can literally just haul the mods folder out of MP_ModPack, download the Multiplayer Mod Workaround and repack it with any fixes or changes you want. Just make sure to copy CP and CBP back into the mod pack post compile because they will no copy over with Multiplayer Mod workaround. Aside from Buffalo tiles damaging all units most of the issues were extremely situational and minor, so I'll get around to it eventually.
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Feb 21, 2016 19:10
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Mod is awesome. Things I've noticed: - I'm p sure pyramids are bugged. I don't think it gives the improvement bonus its supposed to. - Buffalos were hurting me in my own territory as the Chinook with the Blackfoot not on the map (single player) - City tiles will randomly appear/disappear between turns. Other than that, this is great and is honestly breathing new life into the game for me.
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Feb 22, 2016 01:45
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It looks like to actually create a custom modpack using the tools I'd have to boot to Windows and install the game there as well, which I'd like to avoid doing for what seems like it should be a trivial thing. I'd like to combine JdH's Active AI Diplomacy in MP and Enhanced UI into one fake DLC. Is this possible to do manually?
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Feb 22, 2016 02:38
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Lightning Knight posted:I wasn't sure what I was meant to do with luxuries anymore either. They're not all that different in practice. Get as many different types as you can for more happiness - it's just that the amount of happiness is scaled to your population instead of being a flat +4.
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Feb 22, 2016 10:44
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Finally knocked out a game as Venice for the achievement and got Greed Is Good in the process. Pretty easy once I got the economic snowball rolling, and the world was doomed the moment I grabbed Treaty Organization plus having a size 58 Venice was funny, but overall I found the inability to control specialists or direct what the cities were building to be frustrating. More irritatingly, almost every city I bought I found myself wishing had been planted just one or two tiles over. A fine change of pace, but I can't see myself playing as Venice again.
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Feb 22, 2016 15:39
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I play a Venice game when I get extremely mad at Map RNG for giving me a good capital location, and then just dry hills with no new luxes forever and ever. Puppeted city states pretty much exist to be forward bases and send Venice food caravans and nothing else, so it doesn't really matter if they're in great spots or not (unless the Coal spawns one tile out of their range  ). It's pretty relaxed because there's less micromanaging and a pretty easy civ to play as.
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Feb 22, 2016 16:40
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I got this game a few years ago in a Steam sale, played an hour, realized I was having no fun, and promptly uninstalled. For context, I played original Alpha Centauri to death, back in the day. Some goons have encouraged me to try again by never playing unmodded SP and only playing modded MP. They told me it's the only fun way to play, so I guess I'll give it a shot. What mods should I install for Vanilla Civ5, and how do I multiplayer? Is it a "Quick Launch" sort of thing with matchmaking? Also, I don't actually know how to play this game at all or what the mechanics are, so I'm expecting hilarity when I first log in and try to do things. Stalkerr fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Feb 22, 2016 |
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Feb 22, 2016 18:20
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I think the game is fine with the expansions, you don't strictly speaking need any gameplay mods. I do play with Really Advanced Setup and Enhanced UI; the former gives you a little more specificity as to how the world is generated and the latter makes it a lot easier to handle the diplomacy stuff. But neither of them are necessary.
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Feb 22, 2016 18:36
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Chamale posted:That sounds like the invisible encampment bug. Try sending a strong melee unit around the area where they are spawning and maybe that stops it, but I'm not sure if that really works or not. This is from last page (this thread got a lot of attention fast) but I doubt it was that. Barbs kept popping up right next to my capitol, and this was fairly well into the game, so my borders were a little ways out, and I had multiple cities. One turn no one in my borders, next turn a couple of pikemen are two-tiles from my capitol. Never had it happen before.
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Feb 22, 2016 18:57
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Gort posted:They're not all that different in practice. Get as many different types as you can for more happiness - it's just that the amount of happiness is scaled to your population instead of being a flat +4. I figured out they still gave happiness in my next game, though I didn't know it scaled to population. The mod adds a shitload of specialists, it makes it hard to take advantage of all the sick yields they added to the tiles. Is this what it was like to play Gods and Kings or Vanilla?
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Feb 22, 2016 18:59
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Stalkerr posted:I got this game a few years ago in a Steam sale, played an hour, realized I was having no fun, and promptly uninstalled. For context, I played original Alpha Centauri to death, back in the day. A few things to note about Civ MP: First, since you said "vanilla" Civ, I'm assuming you don't have the expansions. You're going to need Gods and Kings and Brave New World to play MP, no one plays without those (and for good reason, really). Second, trying to do MP on your own with public games is doomed to fail, as usually what happens is people quit out of games once they start falling behind. Since that's the case, there has been several "No Quitters" groups put together to address this issue. Here's a few of them: https://steamcommunity.com/groups/NO_QUITTERS These guys play non-modded Civ MP from what I remember. https://steamcommunity.com/groups/NQCivilization These guys use the No Quitters overhaul mod, which basically completely redesigns the game to work better with multiplayer. Details here. If you're going to install a mod for multiplayer, this is the mod you want. Another group, dunno anything about them: https://steamcommunity.com/groups/CVNQ If you're not interested in that, I'd recommend playing with your friends first, if possible. This can be an issue though, as Civ requires 6 to 8 hours of available time to play through a game, although you can save the game and come back later if you're playing with friends. No Quitters games go until someone wins. Third, skill gap. Civ has an utterly massive skill gap. Since you don't know how the game works, you're going to be crushed. Civ is also a bit of an obtuse games with vague rules and things that don't make a lot of sense, so it can take a while to get good enough to actually compete in MP. With that said, if you want to learn, Filthy Robot has a great series of tutorial videos and multiplayer matches that you can learn from. Fourth, there is an alternative to live MP in Civ, called Giant Multiplayer Robot. "GMR" is a "Play by Email" Or "PBEM" sort of system, except instead of emailing saves, GMR gives you a desktop client which manages your games, downloads them, launches Civ for you, and uploads the turn once you're done. It's a pretty good system, but very slow, and games can take months to complete. If, after all that, you're still interested in MP, one final thing I'd recommend is getting someone to teach you the game personally. It makes things a lot easier and faster if you have someone knowledgeable to ask questions of. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Feb 22, 2016 |
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Feb 22, 2016 19:34
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If you get into a GMR game, better be in for the long haul. I've been playing a game for 1 year and 3 months, and only just discovered industrialization.
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Feb 22, 2016 23:05
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I just installed this Mod at the recommendation of a couple of friends but I'm having trouble getting it started. Every time I start a game there's no unit orders pane. I can move my starting units around the map, but I cannot, for instance, settle an initial city. I have EUI installed, but I had the same problem even after deleting the UI_bc1 folder.
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Feb 23, 2016 02:09
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Goonpack? CBP? NQmod?
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Feb 23, 2016 04:15
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Etalommi posted:Goonpack? CBP? NQmod? Should have specified: Goonpack. I even went so far as to uninstall the game and reinstall it to get rid of all previous mods. No dice, I still don't have a unit pane. Edit: It looks like it's tied to specific civilizations. The Inuit seem to be the one that is causing the issue. Goldmansack fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Feb 23, 2016 |
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Feb 23, 2016 04:20
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Luceo posted:It looks like to actually create a custom modpack using the tools I'd have to boot to Windows and install the game there as well, which I'd like to avoid doing for what seems like it should be a trivial thing. I'd like to combine JdH's Active AI Diplomacy in MP and Enhanced UI into one fake DLC. Is this possible to do manually? Kept wondering why just dropping the cvgamecore_expansion2.dll from JdH's Active AI Diplomacy in MP into the Expansion2 DLC folder didn't work, when I discovered that custom DLL mods don't work on the Mac version of the game. Thought I'd post that in case anyone else is as dumb as I am for not noticing that! Oh well, at least eUI works.
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Feb 23, 2016 17:49
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For some reason I am getting super amazingly addicted to everything Civilization related and have just received "Civilization Chronicles" in the mail as well as buying C3 complete online. I'm playing multiple civ games back to back and having a blast seeing the differences in how the series has evolved. All that said, I'm confused as to which is the definitive version of Civ 2. Is it Test of TIme, Classic/Dos, or Multiplayer Gold? I'm currently playing multiplayer gold and aside from the fact that their is no music, I've also read online that there are some unresolved bugs in this version of the game that are fairly large. Thanks in advance!
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Feb 24, 2016 03:16
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I'm pretty sure Test of Time is the "definitive" Civ 2 experience. It certainly is the final one. Gold was just the online multiplayer re-release of the original Civ 2 that completely hosed over AI diplomacy (even in single player). Test of Time was a graphical overhaul and added some additonal endgame content, and did not have hosed AI.
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Feb 24, 2016 03:27
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chaosapiant posted:I am getting super amazingly addicted to everything Civilization related i'm permabanned poster nobunagastomper58
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Feb 24, 2016 05:38
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canyoneer posted:i'm permabanned poster nobunagastomper58
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Feb 24, 2016 08:31
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