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quote:Poe Dameron [R2-D2, Push The Limit, Autothrusters] (40) I'm convinced that VI Poe was "this fits in my list so that's what we're doing," because VI Poe does not (and has never) struck me as obscenely good. The T-70 is a ship crying out for action economy. Let's make Poe cool and good instead of boring and dumb. Part of the reason I'm looking at the list this way is because Poe generally is good at dealing with a specific in-meta ship/upgrade (in this case, Poe eats TLTs) and is otherwise only decent. He can't duel aces at the top end of the PS game because his action economy is bad and he can't dodge arcs worth a poo poo while still being able to shoot; because he's a jousting ace we generally have no choice but to throw a regen droid on him, and R2-D2 gives us by far a better option in the meta-game than R5-P9 does (and synergizes neatly with PTL). Wedge is a nat PS9 and with Crack Shot is a monster. With Wedge at a higher PS than Poe and with Crack Shot, you can either reliably shove damage through (if they don't spend) or force them to overspend and make Poe's shots better. This list still chews up TLTs (since VI isn't necessary for that) and still provides us with a high-cost regen ship with effective survivability and the capacity to go to time and win. We're basically jousting because of our dials, but it's good jousting because we can PTL on one ship and BB-8 on the other. It boggles my mind that Wedge is cheaper than "Red Ace," and also that I was too stupid to have tried this before now. I think this is maybe legit! Like, I could conceivably take this to a store championship. e: 
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Feb 24, 2016 09:47
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guts and bolts posted:I'm convinced that VI Poe was "this fits in my list so that's what we're doing," because VI Poe does not (and has never) struck me as obscenely good. The T-70 is a ship crying out for action economy. Let's make Poe cool and good instead of boring and dumb. Unless you're really, really dead-set on keeping an initiative bid going, Wedge is going to get a lot more mileage out of Predator than he is Crack Shot. Don't get me wrong, Crack Shot is a good card but it's goodness is multiplicative, it's better the more of it you can have which is why it works great on Black Squadron swarms and the like. A single use of it on Wedge is okay, but I don't know that I'd say it makes him a monster.
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Feb 24, 2016 09:57
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I really want things to expand a bit Poe because he's a handsome guy and having him "solved" around an efficient and somewhat unexciting build, cheifly good because easy to fly without committing unforced mental errors through seven and a half hours of tourney play is boring. I'd really be interested to see future waves give us more TFA content with more tech upgrades. That's a design space that will definitely open up for the T-70 depending on what they do with it.
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Feb 24, 2016 10:00
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Kai Tave posted:Unless you're really, really dead-set on keeping an initiative bid going, Wedge is going to get a lot more mileage out of Predator than he is Crack Shot. Don't get me wrong, Crack Shot is a good card but it's goodness is multiplicative, it's better the more of it you can have which is why it works great on Black Squadron swarms and the like. A single use of it on Wedge is okay, but I don't know that I'd say it makes him a monster. It's more that the threat of it ruins the day of aces like Fel, and I don't know for sure if Wedge survives long enough to maximize the Predator choice
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Feb 24, 2016 10:16
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guts and bolts posted:It's more that the threat of it ruins the day of aces like Fel, and I don't know for sure if Wedge survives long enough to maximize the Predator choice I don't know how much a single Crack Shot would threaten Soontir per se...I can see it being enough to give him pause, but Wedge does that already just by being Wedge. I mean I could see it working, but another value to Predator is it allows you to dedicate Wedge's actions to focusing which ups his defensibility while still giving you some extra offensive punch, meaning in a roundabout way Predator actually increases Wedge's survivability.
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Feb 24, 2016 10:22
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Otisburg posted:I really want things to expand a bit Poe because he's a handsome guy and having him "solved" around an efficient and somewhat unexciting build, cheifly good because easy to fly without committing unforced mental errors through seven and a half hours of tourney play is boring. juke poe im serious
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Feb 24, 2016 10:45
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I AM THE MOON posted:juke poe When I jumped in on this back in December that was the first MWG style mistake I made in list building ITT. I was coming from playing Feds in STAW where the action bar was very standardized for almost every ship (and contained evade).
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Feb 24, 2016 10:51
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guts and bolts posted:I'm convinced that VI Poe was "this fits in my list so that's what we're doing," because VI Poe does not (and has never) struck me as obscenely good. The T-70 is a ship crying out for action economy. Let's make Poe cool and good instead of boring and dumb. See, the thing is, a PTL Poe has absolutely no chance against any kind of ace. He'll just get dodged to hell. Yes, his action economy sucks more with VI but he's actually going to shoot against aces. Having only Wedge against aces is going to be really painful when he gets shot to pieces easily.
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Feb 24, 2016 11:34
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I AM THE MOON posted:juke poe I flew against a Comm Relay Juke Poe last night. He was flying with kyle katarn and Jan Ors to give him the evade token. Unfortunately that combination is very unhappy when it faces Palob. EDIT: Hero binayre pirate killed both Kyle Katarn and Poe Dameron. hooman fucked around with this message at 11:50 on Feb 24, 2016 |
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Feb 24, 2016 11:47
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Panzeh posted:See, the thing is, a PTL Poe has absolutely no chance against any kind of ace. He'll just get dodged to hell. Yes, his action economy sucks more with VI but he's actually going to shoot against aces. Having only Wedge against aces is going to be really painful when he gets shot to pieces easily. Yup. Poe is only actually scary when at PS 10. The PtL build dances a little (but not much because 1 green banks don't go anywhere) and ends up in pretty much the same spot it already was, then gets arc dodged and murdered. Or not even arc dodged. You can just easily block a stressed Poe. Edit: also guts, if you think a guy who's won Nationals 3 times put Poe in his list "just because it fit the points" or whatever, uhhhhhhh. Yeah. I may give chill a little crap for mentioning Paul Heaver a bunch, but the dude is clearly an excellent player and tests things to death. Slab Squatthrust fucked around with this message at 13:50 on Feb 24, 2016 |
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Feb 24, 2016 13:48
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I find the idea that Poe needs more action economy rather silly. He gets more mileage out of a single focus than any other ship in the game. One focus for Poe is very akin to an infinite stack of focus. The odds of him rolling multiple eyeballs on any given roll are pretty slim. Sure, it happens from time to time, but not nearly as often as him rolling just one. And he can change that focus on every roll. His ability gives him ludicrous amounts of defense. Combined with autothrusters, it's all but impossible to hurt him with a 2-dice attack at range 3, without some special thing like O'Leader or Crack Shot. He can weather entire TIE swarms without a scratch. Poe + regen droid + autothrusters is one of the most defensive ships to ever land in the game. That's balanced out by having average offensive power for a 3-dice ship. He'd be an absolute monster if he could also boost his offense by a similar amount. No other ship can do what Poe does. He can't attack multiple times (thankfully), and that's okay. It's balanced out by his ridiculous defensive abilities.
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Feb 24, 2016 15:55
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zVxTeflon posted:what...do you plan on doing with this thing? If I put him next to me on my bed, maybe the good pilot vibes will also make me a good pilot  Otherwise he's prob gonna chill in my car
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Feb 24, 2016 16:03
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Chill la Chill posted:If I put him next to me on my bed, maybe the good pilot vibes will also make me a good pilot 'just sit next to the body pillow of Poe Dameron, Hero of the Resistance'
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Feb 24, 2016 16:20
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Tekopo posted:Just imagining Chill going out on the pull and having someone enter his car My cat will find out about the pillow at some point and will want to sleep on it and become an ace pilot too. E: \/ \/ \/
Chill la Chill fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Feb 24, 2016 |
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Feb 24, 2016 16:26
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Chill la Chill posted:
Resistance Ace Dog-Fighter, Ello Nyasty
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Feb 24, 2016 16:31
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Kai Tave posted:I don't know how much a single Crack Shot would threaten Soontir per se...I can see it being enough to give him pause, but Wedge does that already just by being Wedge. I mean I could see it working, but another value to Predator is it allows you to dedicate Wedge's actions to focusing which ups his defensibility while still giving you some extra offensive punch, meaning in a roundabout way Predator actually increases Wedge's survivability. Reducing green die by one and also forcing an overspend on tokens (or shoving damage through anyway) seems good; Predator also seems good; XXY has room for each and I'll play both Panzeh posted:See, the thing is, a PTL Poe has absolutely no chance against any kind of ace. He'll just get dodged to hell. Yes, his action economy sucks more with VI but he's actually going to shoot against aces. Having only Wedge against aces is going to be really painful when he gets shot to pieces easily. VI Poe also gets reliably dodged to hell; I don't think PS10 helps as much as people seem to think it does? In the 1v1 I've literally never lost to a Poe as any ace, provided we're not going to time, and Cool Poe goes to time as effectively as VI Poe does anyway. Flying as Poe against dodge-y aces in the 1v1, there are plenty of times where I have to Boost at PS10 to make sure I can actually shoot at all, which means I'm just throwing unmodded red dice (again). The solution I want to try is to just not play around the duel, and if I have to, run away and win on points. 40 beats everyone except fat Whisper. More to the point, Poe/Wedge/stresshog creates a scenario in which you actually can't really shoot Wedge first in an ace list, because you will get loaded up on stress and then can't dodge PS8 PTL /Predator Poe, who then murders you. The Gate posted:Yup. Poe is only actually scary when at PS 10. The PtL build dances a little (but not much because 1 green banks don't go anywhere) and ends up in pretty much the same spot it already was, then gets arc dodged and murdered. Or not even arc dodged. You can just easily block a stressed Poe. No other EPT fits in that list in a way that makes any sense. I'm not knocking Heaver at all - the guy's a proven champion. But if you think Heaver built that list around Poe, I think you're probably mistaken. That's my gut feeling - he started from the stresshog, piled Poe and another TLT and a blocker in there, and you're left with 1 point. Predator and PTL don't fit, VI makes sense, bam, there you go. Assuming that Veteran Instincts is the only way to run Poe seems like a mistake to me, is all. Consider that in either of Heaver's recent heavily-played lists that you can't compromise any of the points on the other ships and VI Poe being there just because that's what's left makes more sense. You can't reduce cost anywhere else in Heaver's list other than Poe's EPT, really. TLTs are non-negotiable in terms of efficacy. The blocker is a generic, so you'd have to delete him entirely to give Poe action economy that he doesn't need in this list. The stresshog is just 26 points of auto-include. In the case of PEG, Ezra is similar to Fel in that he basically needs to be run that way (TLT/PTL/Crewbacca/Hull) or you severely compromise the attraction of the shuttle. That's what I'm saying - not that Heaver doesn't test things, is a moron, or that I know more than he does. I'm not sure why we jumped to this conclusion. ConfusedUs posted:I find the idea that Poe needs more action economy rather silly. He gets more mileage out of a single focus than any other ship in the game. One focus for Poe is very akin to an infinite stack of focus. For 35+ points you need a jousting ship to also do damage, which Poe does not do very well, because he has extremely poor action economy. Poe absolutely cannot weather a TIE swarm with Crack Shot, and if you disagree with me you should try it (and that seems to be the best way to run TIE swarms). Poe is extremely good at killing TLTs and hopefully surviving long enough to make it to the end-game while not being the only ship you have left on the board, due to his regen. His ability to actually fight aces is limited no matter what you do - PTL, Predator, or VI. That's not really his job, even if you're PS10 Poe. He's there to destroy TLTs and survive for a long time and help your other stuff kill what's left over. Like, VI Poe wasn't dueling Corran Horn at the end of Worlds last year; he was just surviving and providing cover for the TLT while being able to survive TLTs himself throughout the day (not specifically against Eide). I'm not saying that XXY is better than Heaver's list, again; what I'm saying is that I don't agree with the assumption that Poe is just VI/R2-D2/AT stapled to him to get any value out of him. I absolutely think improved action economy is good and helpful on him. The more I think about it, the more I like Predator over PTL on Poe and maybe even Predator on Wedge, but the good news is that that still fits at 100. If any cool guys are going to be at GA this week before store champs, lemme know so I can test-drive this list. EDIT: you can probably tl;dr my thoughts on Poe in Rebel list-building by saying that I think the subtitle on the FFG twitch had it backwards. It isn't "Poe with a TLT escort," it's "TLTs with Poe escorting them." guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Feb 24, 2016 |
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Feb 24, 2016 18:40
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guts and bolts posted:Poe absolutely cannot weather a TIE swarm with Crack Shot ConfusedUs posted:His ability gives him ludicrous amounts of defense. Combined with autothrusters, it's all but impossible to hurt him with a 2-dice attack at range 3, without some special thing like O'Leader or Crack Shot. He can weather entire TIE swarms without a scratch. Do you even read before you start going all  on people? I love talking about this game, but it's super hard with you. You just ignore what you don't want to hear. Also, you seem to want VI Poe to be an offensive monster. He's not. He's a decent offensive threat with massive defense. The inability to Boost and Focus is the drawback for running him at PS10. If you really want the action economy, run him at PS8 with PTL and BB8. You'll get three actions per turn (if you do a green move) at the risk of being outdodged by more nimble ships at a higher PS. You won't get regen, either. He'd be broken if he could regen, get three actions, and activate at PS10. It's a choice, and it speaks of good design.
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Feb 24, 2016 19:16
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ConfusedUs posted:Do you even read before you start going all I don't know what you mean by "TIE swarm" if it isn't running Crack Shot. Do you have any examples of a competitive non-Crack Shot TIE swarm? I have seen zero, locally, and zero while playing Vassal. Saying that Poe is very good against this thing people don't do seems counter-productive. I'm not ignoring what you said, I'm just confused by what you meant, because on its face it doesn't seem to work. Naked TIE swarms basically vanished from the meta. EDIT: like, Poe is also really good at killing naked Z-95s. I don't think that's relevant to the discussion at hand? Saying he can weather a TIE swarm as long as its loadout is lovely seems similarly not relevant? I'm not sure also why it's hard to discuss the game with me - I just don't agree with your point. Moreover, I'm on record in this thread as having played PTL/BB-8 Poe for a while - it was like a month of three-days-a-week X-Wing, and the conclusion I came to was that regen Poe is just better. I ran PTL/BB-8 Poe at my first store championship. BB-8 is awesome, but doesn't improve Poe's performance by enough to merit dropping R2-D2 in a meta that is defined by stress control, TLTs, and dicehax. Like, part of the reason Poe is run with R5-P9 in double-regen-X-Wings isn't because R5-P9 is the best droid for him - it isn't. R2-D2 still is. But he will potentially get better mileage out of R5-P9 than "Red Ace" might, and R2-D2 is unique, so the choice is made for you. From a purely strategic standpoint, here's what Poe is and does, by himself, upgrades not factored in yet: 1) Hopefully normalizes defending against most in-meta ships by getting a free die change 2) Presents a competitive jousting statline at the expense of almost-prohibitive cost (31) 3) Has a strictly better suite of actions than the previous iteration of the X-Wing, and a strictly better dial With upgrades factored in, Poe's "best" configurations play to the strengths he already has - his defensive dice are improved tremendously by Autothrusters and the ability to regen 1 damage per turn reliably, since 1 damage is likely what you're dealing with, barring catastrophe or Whisper. Autothrusters, regen droids, and his pilot ability make him uniquely suited to weathering TLTs, which are currently meta-defining. To that end, his astromech and modification slots are basically already spoken for from the jump. I won't argue there - I think a regen droid and AT is absolutely the way to go. So because of the dial and what Poe's natural strengths are, he's a jousting ace. Even at PS10 Poe is not super great at contending with enemy aces in the 1v1; you don't sic Poe on Soontir Fel by his lonesome the same way you do that with PS11 Vader or Omega Leader or whatever, because you won't have a ton of success doing that. Virtually every playable Empire ace currently in the meta has a relatively easy time not remaining in Poe's arc, even with Poe's speed 3 turn, and because Poe will have to Boost often to keep you in arc, he will lose access to his pilot ability, because his action economy sucks. Because of VI Poe's bad action economy, if you want to deal damage you may as well not even have Boost on his action bar. The only reason it's there is so you can equip Autothrusters. PS10 Poe works effectively as a TLT escort because his job isn't to solo aces - it's to survive, kill TLTs, and strip tokens off of dodgey aces once they're all that's left on the board or if they present themselves as juicy targets of opportunity. I think that in a list where you can fit a higher-cost EPT without compromising other ships in your build, it could be absolutely worth it to remain strong on defense (regenerating shields and having Autothrusters for defense) while upgrading your offense, at the expense of 2 points and being easier to arc dodge than you already are. EDIT2: wanted to address this bit by itself as well, sorry quote:He'd be broken if he could regen, get three actions, and activate at PS10. I'm absolutely not suggesting that Poe should be able to do this, nor have I ever suggested that he should? Also your tangent here makes zero sense - you can't get three actions per turn while also regenerating shields, even with PTL? I'm saying that Poe wants action economy, as does every single ship in the game with discretionary movement options like BRolls and Boosts, and if PTL/Predator is the only way to get it, it's foolish to dismiss it out of hand. The Inquisitor wants PTL because he can Boost. Vader takes Engine Upgrade because he has built-in PTL. Carnor Jax loves PTL, as does Fel before you even factor in his synergy with the stress=focus element. Hell, once Kanan Jarrus hits, Han Solo will love PTL with his Engine Upgrade. All of these pilots have strong pilot abilities as well - I won't argue whether they're stronger than Poe's or not, that seems like a loser's bet. But to suggest that Poe/the T-70 getting action economy in a future update (either from a title or the Tech slot) would make Poe broken is just plain wrong, imo. 
guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Feb 24, 2016 |
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Feb 24, 2016 19:45
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guts and bolts posted:I don't know what you mean by "TIE swarm" if it isn't running Crack Shot. Do you have any examples of a competitive non-Crack Shot TIE swarm? I have seen zero, locally, and zero while playing Vassal. Saying that Poe is very good against this thing people don't do seems counter-productive. I'm not ignoring what you said, I'm just confused by what you meant, because on its face it doesn't seem to work. Naked TIE swarms basically vanished from the meta. EDIT: like, Poe is also really good at killing naked Z-95s. I don't think that's relevant to the discussion at hand? Saying he can weather a TIE swarm as long as its loadout is lovely seems similarly not relevant? TIE/fo Fighter: · "Omega Leader" (21) Juke (2) Comm Relay (3) TIE Fighter: · "Howlrunner" (18) Hull Upgrade (3) TIE Fighter: · "Wampa" (14) TIE Fighter: Obsidian Squadron Pilot (13) TIE Fighter: Obsidian Squadron Pilot (13) TIE Fighter: Obsidian Squadron Pilot (13) ... Is what Dallas Parker used to get to Top 8 at a 66-player Store Champs this past weekend is LA. IIRC He's been in Worlds Top 16 the past 3 years running, and his 2013 Worlds Finals Match is considered a must-watch for anyone into competitive X-Wing, or just anyone with a love for the game. You really need to get in touch with him and set him straight re: naked Ties being non-competitive, he seems like the kind of person who really could benefit from the almost-but-not-quite 60 days of X-Wing experience you can bestow upon him.
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Feb 24, 2016 21:21
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Tequila Ranger posted:TIE/fo Fighter: · "Omega Leader" (21) Dallas Parker used Crack Shot at Worlds, IIRC? I think. And is obviously a very good player, period, and of swarms especially. He is also sui generis and I think it's probably still a bad idea to tout Poe's efficacy against a thing that literally one guy, who is a Worlds-level player, runs. But I guess that's where we're at when discussing strategy on something awful dot com - quickly resorting to weird, defensive personal attacks, and pointing out corner cases and literally the best 16ish players in the world, and possibly inaccurately at that? I'd have to look up what he ran at Worlds last year, I don't have the whole thing committed to memory, but I remember only one TIE swarm and I think it had Crack Shot. So~ Anyway, thanks for your input, bud. Let me know how your next tourney goes with your naked TIE swarm, since it is obviously extremely good, and only a moron like me wouldn't play it.
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Feb 24, 2016 21:30
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guts and bolts posted:Dallas Parker used Crack Shot at Worlds, IIRC? I think. And is obviously a very good player, period, and of swarms especially. He is also sui generis and I think it's probably still a bad idea to tout Poe's efficacy against a thing that literally one guy, who is a Worlds-level player, runs. But I guess that's where we're at when discussing strategy on something awful dot com - quickly resorting to weird, defensive personal attacks, and pointing out corner cases and literally the best 16ish players in the world, and possibly inaccurately at that? I'd have to look up what he ran at Worlds last year, I don't have the whole thing committed to memory, but I remember only one TIE swarm and I think it had Crack Shot. So~ You'd probably enjoy this thread and Something Awful in general much more if you weren't weirdly touchy whenever someone says something counter to you.
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Feb 24, 2016 21:34
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I like putting my little models of spaceships of the table and pushing them around making wooshing and pew pew sounds. It's pretty fun.
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Feb 24, 2016 21:34
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Poopy Palpy posted:I like putting my little models of spaceships of the table and pushing them around making wooshing and pew pew sounds. It's pretty fun. Me too
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Feb 24, 2016 21:36
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Improbable Lobster posted:You'd probably enjoy this thread and Something Awful in general much more if you weren't weirdly touchy whenever someone says something counter to you. The lengths people go to in an effort to try and dunk on guts and bolts posting is pretty amusing to me. In a more productive note, the spaniard who sells engine glow stickers has stuff up on American eBay now, along with a new sheet of stickers for the Imperial Raider. I ordered a set.
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Feb 24, 2016 21:41
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Improbable Lobster posted:You'd probably enjoy this thread and Something Awful in general much more if you weren't weirdly touchy whenever someone says something counter to you. I actually like it when people present counter-arguments. It's fun and cool! Like, when I was running PTL/BB-8 Poe to the exclusion of everything else, if it wasn't for some help from SA I would probably have tried to stick with that and been miserable. I just don't think a good counter-argument is "be passive aggressive while presenting a low-content point." I mean, I'll be the first to say right now that I completely forgot Parker ran a mostly-naked TIE list still. Clearly he has success with it! I don't think that's what I should build around, though. I'm also not, like... upset? I guess? I try to be a fairly even-keeled guy, even if I speak in hyperbole on the internet. I figured it was just normal give-and-get banter. Poopy Palpy posted:I like putting my little models of spaceships of the table and pushing them around making wooshing and pew pew sounds. It's pretty fun. Do you actually make the noises with your mouth, though? This is crucial.
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Feb 24, 2016 21:43
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guts and bolts posted:I actually like it when people present counter-arguments. It's fun and cool! Like, when I was running PTL/BB-8 Poe to the exclusion of everything else, if it wasn't for some help from SA I would probably have tried to stick with that and been miserable. I just don't think a good counter-argument is "be passive aggressive while presenting a low-content point." I mean, I'll be the first to say right now that I completely forgot Parker ran a mostly-naked TIE list still. Clearly he has success with it! I don't think that's what I should build around, though. I'm also not, like... upset? I guess? I try to be a fairly even-keeled guy, even if I speak in hyperbole on the internet. I figured it was just normal give-and-get banter. You gotta make the mouth noises. Still waiting for Imperial Veterans. It and a reprint of Most Wanted are what I'm looking forward to in the coming year.
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Feb 24, 2016 21:46
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The problem with full swarms (7 or 8 ships) is that the amount of time you have to practice with them vs how good the list actually is not really worth the time investment. I mostly see mini swarms of naked ties, and usually they only see use if you don't have the points for a black crack swarm.
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Feb 24, 2016 21:47
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I think I'll start experimenting with making actual noises for my fighters. My new set of acrylic movement templates is set to arrive tonight, along with range 1 and 2 range rulers. My Bespin playmat and my new shipment of ships should be arriving on Monday. I am very excited.
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Feb 24, 2016 21:49
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Devlan Mud posted:The lengths people go to in an effort to try and dunk on guts and bolts posting is pretty amusing to me. Could you link to these please?
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Feb 24, 2016 21:51
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Someone should make movement templates that automatically make spaceship noises when you put them on the table
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Feb 24, 2016 21:54
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Gerdalti posted:Could you link to these please? https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/252296384949
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Feb 24, 2016 21:56
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Improbable Lobster posted:You gotta make the mouth noises. The more I think about it, the more I like Imperial Veterans, because I hope it sets the standard for buffing jousting ships across every faction, especially Scum. I really, really want buffs to the Kirazxzasdas Fighter. On topic: how do you make the X-Wing laser noises with your mouth? It seems really hard, almost like trying to do Donald Duck's voice. Tekopo posted:The problem with full swarms (7 or 8 ships) is that the amount of time you have to practice with them vs how good the list actually is not really worth the time investment. I mostly see mini swarms of naked ties, and usually they only see use if you don't have the points for a black crack swarm. GT's store championship - I think GT had regionals last year, and the meta here is good and competitive - anyway, GT's store championship last weekend had a total of 5 TIE/ln fighters played at all, and four of them were in Brunas's list. I think. I saw a Wampa + Palpshuttle floating around, and then Brunas runs Vader + Black Crack. That was it. While I don't think that's normal, and I don't think it somehow invalidates that Dallas Parker loving rules with TIE fighters, I also think it's at least somewhat indicative of where TIE swarms are at in the meta. Also, 6+ ship lists are super punishing to learn. Super hard. I'm playing with an 8-TIE list in some of my casual games just to get a better grip on pinwheeling and using so many ships and not loving up move and action order, it's fatiguing.
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Feb 24, 2016 21:56
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guts and bolts posted:The more I think about it, the more I like Imperial Veterans, because I hope it sets the standard for buffing jousting ships across every faction, especially Scum. I really, really want buffs to the Kirazxzasdas Fighter.
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Feb 24, 2016 22:00
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guts and bolts posted:Dallas Parker used Crack Shot at Worlds, IIRC? I think. And is obviously a very good player, period, and of swarms especially. He is also sui generis and I think it's probably still a bad idea to tout Poe's efficacy against a thing that literally one guy, who is a Worlds-level player, runs. But I guess that's where we're at when discussing strategy on something awful dot com - quickly resorting to weird, defensive personal attacks, and pointing out corner cases and literally the best 16ish players in the world, and possibly inaccurately at that? I'd have to look up what he ran at Worlds last year, I don't have the whole thing committed to memory, but I remember only one TIE swarm and I think it had Crack Shot. So~ You said: "I don't know what you mean by "TIE swarm" if it isn't running Crack Shot. Do you have any examples of a competitive non-Crack Shot TIE swarm? " I provided you one. Also the claim that Dallas' non-crackshot toting swarm is a corner case, while pretending that your limited time interacting with this game and its players is not, seems a bit insincere to me. I apologize for being snarky when I pointed out your level of experience with this game; I did not mean to be personal. I'll try it another way: Perhaps you might reconsider making broad and sweeping statements, which end up being contradicted by more experienced, and more successful, players (not me) until you have a greater length and breadth of experience to draw upon?
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Feb 24, 2016 22:32
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Having watched the finals between Nathan and Heaver, Poe at PS 10 had Nathan running scared the whole match, I dunno what you're talking about when you say all he was doing was surviving. Nathan's Poe didn't do much because it was deployed, and honestly flown, quite badly. It was too far away and held back too long to matter. Nathan simply flew badly the whole last match, I think he was probably fatigued as poo poo being younger and newish to such a huge event. Compare how he flew that match to the one before, and it shows. I will agree that the stresshog was an integral part of the list for Paul, but there's certainly other options to fill the remaining 36 points besides what he took. There's a few videos of him testing things out at other events and on vassal. The list had VI Poe as a fixture before had either TLT. Hell, iirc he played a drat A-Wing and 3 Zs in a match with Poe.
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Feb 24, 2016 22:36
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In my experience so far, which is admittedly not much compared to tournament players, Poe at PS 10 is an order of magnitude more threatening than Poe at PS 8. Being able to out-PS Whisper is a Pretty Big Deal.Some Numbers posted:My new set of acrylic movement templates is set to arrive tonight, along with range 1 and 2 range rulers. My Bespin playmat and my new shipment of ships should be arriving on Monday. I am very excited. 
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Feb 24, 2016 22:46
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EDIT: Tequila Ranger posted:I apologize for being snarky when I pointed out your level of experience with this game; I did not mean to be personal. I'll try it another way: Perhaps you might reconsider making broad and sweeping statements, which end up being contradicted by more experienced, and more successful, players (not me) until you have a greater length and breadth of experience to draw upon? It's water under the bridge, man. I tried to include some qualifiers in what I meant, because locally and online I see literally zero TIE swarms. TIE swarms are clearly still a competitive option, especially if your name is Dallas Parker, and clearly there is room for them in the meta. Top 16 three straight years is not an accident. The Gate posted:Having watched the finals between Nathan and Heaver, Poe at PS 10 had Nathan running scared the whole match, I dunno what you're talking about when you say all he was doing was surviving. Nathan's Poe didn't do much because it was deployed, and honestly flown, quite badly. It was too far away and held back too long to matter. Nathan simply flew badly the whole last match, I think he was probably fatigued as poo poo being younger and newish to such a huge event. Compare how he flew that match to the one before, and it shows. I heard it the exact opposite way - that Heaver started his list by looking at a spreadsheet of how ships perform against TLTs - and that was what prompted him to include Poe. Heaver's list makes ruthless sense when you look at it with the following imagined criteria: a) TLTs define the meta. The list must be able to reliably beat massed TLTs. b) Stress also defines the meta, to a lesser extent. The list must be able to deal with stress. c) The list must be able to contend with aces without automatically losing, particularly Autothrusters aces. Using that as your starting point, you will probably want to include at least two TLTs of your own - one as a stresshog, which for my money is still the best 26 points Rebels can spend - and those are basically a non-negotiable 50 points. But if you want to reliably beat TLTs, you need to do something besides just TLTs + a stresshog + blockers; that leaves the game in the hands of variance, which you don't want. So you want a jousting ace that can kill stresshogs reliably, even on their own, and that's where Poe steps in. At 31 points he pushes the list to 81 non-negotiable points, and because I'm still trying to beat TLTs while not compromising my ability to deal with other poo poo, I'm also treating R2-D2 and Autothrusters as auto-include - we can regen even while stressed, now, and Poe with a Focus and AT will mitigate TLTs while still posing a threat. This brings the list, so far, to a stresshog, a TLT, and Poe, for a total of 87. At 87 points, this list kills TLTs pretty good, can deal with stress by either not caring about actions (TLT, stresshog) or regenerating anyway (Poe)... but isn't super-great against dodgey aces. I have the points for a blocker to mitigate the efficacy of dodgey aces, and that brings me to a neat 99 points. My choices for EPT are now Crack Shot, Veteran Instincts, or Lightning Reflexes, which means my choices are really Crack Shot or Veteran Instincts. It's less that PTL/Predator Poe is bad, and more that Veteran Instincts Poe is what fits what he is doing. Heaver's Poe as PS10 is not the reason I think Eide's PS10Poe was running scared all match - it was because his Poe had R5-P9, and a stresshog shot ends the day for that variety of Poe. So he ran, then made a few mental errors, and that was that. guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Feb 24, 2016 |
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Feb 24, 2016 22:52
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Getting Corran pasted before he could really do anything didn't help either. Corran was the linchpin in that list, and the list is really weak without it.
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Feb 24, 2016 23:05
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canyoneer posted:Getting Corran pasted before he could really do anything didn't help either. Corran was the linchpin in that list, and the list is really weak without it. Agreed. What was it, all shields lost on one shot early in the game? Super bad news.
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Feb 24, 2016 23:08
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Is it overreacting to the meta if I'm considering Hull/Shield upgrade for Soontir over Stealth Device? I feel like between Palp, Wampa, ATCs, Juke, and Crack Shots there's an awful lot of ways to deal out crits/hits and push them through evade dice, so the extra effective HP and ability to shrug off a crit might be gaining value again. Or I could just be driving myself crazy.
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Feb 24, 2016 23:37
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