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WickedHate posted:Read more. Steve feels the Bern
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Feb 26, 2016 03:35
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Teenage Fansub posted:We're talking Flash comics? It's going to take a lot of bad issues to counterbalance the Wally years. Even if I'm not the world's biggest Geoff Johns fan, I have to admit his JSA/Flash era stuff had a lot of charm at the time.
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Feb 26, 2016 03:38
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Gaz-L posted:Messner-Loebs, Waid and Johns alone get you a fairly solid hit:miss ratio. I liked the parts where Bucky was Cap but the run fell apart when Steve came back.
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Feb 26, 2016 04:57
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CharlestheHammer posted:I have yet to see a good story involving Steve Rodgers. Kirby runs, Steve Englehart, Jim Steranko, Roger Stern and John Byrne, parts of Gruenwald, Mark Waid, and then the Bru run which sort of lost it towards the end but thats common in long running storylines. Its not even getting into stories like Avengers: Under Siege
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Feb 26, 2016 05:04
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CharlestheHammer posted:I have yet to see a good story involving Steve Rodgers. Me either
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Feb 26, 2016 06:06
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An Australian? there's gotta be a juicy true crime story to tell about him.
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Feb 26, 2016 06:09
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How do people feel about the post 9-11 Marvel Knights Captain America? I loved it. Good writing, good art, and it did away with Cap's secret identity right around the time Iron Man ditched his. Instead of discussing who had the better comics, who had the lamer secret identity?
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Feb 26, 2016 06:11
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Die Laughing posted:How do people feel about the post 9-11 Marvel Knights Captain America? I loved it. Good writing, good art, and it did away with Cap's secret identity right around the time Iron Man ditched his. Instead of discussing who had the better comics, who had the lamer secret identity? That was around the same time as the Daredevil identity reveal and Morrison X-men, it was a real get rid of secret identities movement.
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Feb 26, 2016 06:30
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A lot of Captain America runs dealt with how he had serious trouble having a life as Steve Rogers due to being a man out of time who didn't really connect with the political trends of the era and spent way too much time superheroing and barely knew anyone who wasn't long-dead. It wasn't so much a lame secret identity as it was a sad one.
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Feb 26, 2016 06:42
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WickedHate posted:Every single Iron Man story as far as I can tell involves his alcoholism or using past armors. I thought Gillen's run from just last year (or two years? Man, time flies) was pretty good, and it involved no booze or past armor. One storyarc basically had Tony do a Thor God Of Thunder story and kick a bunch of dark elves' asses.
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Feb 26, 2016 07:22
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I wasn't being literal, yall. I'll give you though, Tony's elf slaughter was badass.
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Feb 26, 2016 07:32
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Lurdiak posted:A lot of Captain America runs dealt with how he had serious trouble having a life as Steve Rogers due to being a man out of time who didn't really connect with the political trends of the era and spent way too much time superheroing and barely knew anyone who wasn't long-dead. It wasn't so much a lame secret identity as it was a sad one. Was there a Steve Rogers after WWII? I'm not being combative, did he have a firm identity after he got thawed out?
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Feb 26, 2016 08:57
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Die Laughing posted:Was there a Steve Rogers after WWII? I'm not being combative, did he have a firm identity after he got thawed out? Not only did he have a firm identity, but - and I swear I am not making this up - for a time Steve Rogers was employed by Marvel Comics as the penciller on Captain America.
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Feb 26, 2016 13:30
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Steve Rogers being an artist has been used so little in my personal experiences with the character every time it comes up all I can think of is the Reb Brown movie. The man who's voice could command a god(and does), my friends.
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Feb 26, 2016 13:35
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:Not only did he have a firm identity, but - and I swear I am not making this up - for a time Steve Rogers was employed by Marvel Comics as the penciller on Captain America. Fantastic Four had a storyline of Doctor Doom kidnapping Stan Lee and Jack Kirby as they wrote and drew the fantastic four adventures
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Feb 26, 2016 15:15
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I don't know if this is supposed to still be the case, but for a time inside the 616 Marvel Comics was a company that published comics about the actual super heroes in the 616 and DC Comics was a company that published stories about fictional super heroes. Basically one did True Crime comics and the other did Mystery comics.
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Feb 26, 2016 20:48
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Also, Marvel comics are admissible in court as evidence in the Marvel universe.
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Feb 26, 2016 22:42
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Skwirl posted:I don't know if this is supposed to still be the case, but for a time inside the 616 Marvel Comics was a company that published comics about the actual super heroes in the 616 and DC Comics was a company that published stories about fictional super heroes. Basically one did True Crime comics and the other did Mystery comics. There was a DC comic that showed a scene from a movie about Batman and Superman that had Batman as a blonde who's origin involved his sister being put into a coma with a baseball bat.
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Feb 26, 2016 22:53
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I just read Kingdom Come. I really enjoyed it, particularly the art. I found the ending somewhat perplexing, however. Maybe you guys can help clear this up - 1. Why did the 90s antiheroes decide to stop fighting after the bomb dropped? It says that all the same issues that existed before still exist with the survivors. So is the conflict still unresolved? How are Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batsman able to just calmly hang out at a restaurant at the end? 2. What is the moral here? There are overtones of all the superheroes accusing each other of being too militant/fascistic, and Batsman tells Wonder Woman that if she wants warfare, she should just let the bombs drop. But the conflict ends after the bomb does drop, so... that was the solution all along? Kill everyone? That seems to contradict the entire message of the heroes being the ones who want to preserve life. 3. Related to 2, what should Superman have done? Allegedly he lost his moral compass by stepping away from the problem altogether, but he also lost it by creating the gulag. It's really damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't. The book never really answers this question. 4. Did the narrator character actually make a decision? Or did Captain Marvel's decision trump his? Was Captain Marvel trying to kill everyone or just to detonate the bomb in the air so that it would kill less people?
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Feb 26, 2016 23:02
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Soggy Cereal posted:I just read Kingdom Come. I really enjoyed it, particularly the art. 1) Because they saw what happened if they continued- they'd end up dead, either by the hands of another hero or because the humans killed them. 2) Don't ignore your problems until they become unavoidable. Which leads to 3. 3) Not run away and ignored the problem. Once he divorced himself from humanity he started to make decisions like he was a god, deciding to imprison people who didn't agree with him. While he still didn't go to the extreme of killing, he went over the line by creating the gulag. He also refused to work with humanity to solve the problem, leading to the bomb being dropped. 4) The story literally answers this question. He allows Billy to make the choice, as he is the only one who was both man and god and could make the choice. That's also what happens with bomb, superman gives him a choice: "We can keep fighting and everyone dies, or you can let me go and I can stop it." Instead Billy decides to sacrifice himself and try to save everyone.
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Feb 26, 2016 23:16
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I thought humanity liked the antiheroes though. That was why Superman left - everyone preferred Magog over him (and acquitted him for murdering the Joker,) and Superman refused to fight him. If the moral is to not ignore problems until they become unavoidable, should Superman have beaten him up/imprisoned him? Did popular opinion turn against the antiheroes at some point so that regular people would actually arrest them? How is that any better than Superman arresting them?
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Feb 27, 2016 00:32
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Soggy Cereal posted:I thought humanity liked the antiheroes though. That was why Superman left - everyone preferred Magog over him (and acquitted him for murdering the Joker,) and Superman refused to fight him. If the moral is to not ignore problems until they become unavoidable, should Superman have beaten him up/imprisoned him? Superman shouldn't have reacted to Magog's acquital by abandoning humanity, but Magog shouldn't have been acquitted, but Magog shouldn't have killed the Joker in the first place, but he shouldn't have been egged on by popular approval until he felt like that was an actual option, but the superheroes shouldn't have steadily pushed the envelope of acceptable violence, but, but, but. The entire society was sick, and had been for a long time. There was no one easy fix. Incidentally, the actual moral is "gently caress the Dark Age, gently caress grim and gritty, gently caress anti-heroes who kill because that's more real, man, gently caress everyone who buys their comic books, can we get back to telling stories about loving superheroes who save the goddamn world now please". That may help you to understand why the story is the way it is too.
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Feb 27, 2016 01:58
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CapnAndy posted:Incidentally, the actual moral is "gently caress the Dark Age, gently caress grim and gritty, gently caress anti-heroes who kill because that's more real, man, gently caress everyone who buys their comic books, can we get back to telling stories about loving superheroes who save the goddamn world now please". That may help you to understand why the story is the way it is too.
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Feb 27, 2016 02:45
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Anti heroes and killing and such doesn't have to be grim and gritty, it's just the fault of bad writers that think the Doom comic is the greatest literary masterpiece of the century.
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Feb 27, 2016 02:49
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CapnAndy posted:Incidentally, the actual moral is "gently caress the Dark Age, gently caress grim and gritty, gently caress anti-heroes who kill because that's more real, man, gently caress everyone who buys their comic books, can we get back to telling stories about loving superheroes who save the goddamn world now please". That may help you to understand why the story is the way it is too. Oh definitely. That's why I liked it. I'm just trying to figure out the specifics. I think it scratched an itch that I was trying to get with Civil War. There are a lot of similarities but I hated Civil War because it seemed to take the opposite tack - idealism is dead, Captain America is a terrorist in the public eye, everyone is an antihero at heart. Kingdom Come has heroes disagreeing with each other without actually warring about it. Superman is blunt and powerful, Batman is surgical and clandestine, and Wonder Woman advocates old fashioned warfare. None of them are really shown to be wrong or right.
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Feb 27, 2016 02:50
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WickedHate posted:Anti heroes and killing and such doesn't have to be grim and gritty, it's just the fault of bad writers that think the Doom comic is the greatest literary masterpiece of the century. Killing is by definition grim and gritty. Having it any other way is weird.
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Feb 27, 2016 02:59
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It's fuckin WickedHate, she thinks spiderman should kill people
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Feb 27, 2016 03:00
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Grim and Dark shouldn't be a total negative catch-alls. Feel bad death and misery comics can be absolutely appropriate (e: probably for any character), all depending on execution and intention. Vision just had a kid shot in the head for dramatic tension and it's the best. Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Feb 27, 2016 |
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Feb 27, 2016 03:11
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Maybe we can get a tone-deaf Punisher-Verse event showcasing dozens of beloved heroes acting like Judge Dredd. Kamala Khan as Ms. Murder rams her fist into a guy's stomach and then embiggens it. That's what you get for playing the numbers game in Jersey City.
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Feb 27, 2016 03:13
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Ror posted:Maybe we can get a tone-deaf Punisher-Verse event showcasing dozens of beloved heroes acting like Judge Dredd. I know you're being sarcastic, but that would be cool as gently caress. CharlestheHammer posted:Killing is by definition grim and gritty. Having it any other way is weird. No one blinked an eye when Tony blew up a tank with the people still inside in the first Iron Man.
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Feb 27, 2016 03:16
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Travis343 posted:It's fuckin WickedHate, she thinks spiderman should kill people
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Feb 27, 2016 05:15
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CharlestheHammer posted:Killing is by definition grim and gritty. Having it any other way is weird. It's not though. Luke blowing up the Death Star isn't gritty, it's epic and heroic. Deadpool shooting a bunch of guys while quipping isn't grim, it's funny.
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Feb 27, 2016 05:40
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WickedHate posted:Anti heroes and killing and such doesn't have to be grim and gritty, it's just the fault of bad writers that think the Doom comic is the greatest literary masterpiece of the century. This sounds like a slam against the Doom comic and I can't abide that. "NOW I'M RADIOACTIVE! THAT CAN'T BE GOOD!" is dialogue on par with the work of Dickens or Melville.
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Feb 27, 2016 05:46
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Doctor Spaceman posted:It's not though. Luke blowing up the Death Star isn't gritty, it's epic and heroic. Deadpool shooting a bunch of guys while quipping isn't grim, it's funny. No Deadpool in general is grim. Though yeah indirect killing is weird. One on one is more personal and grim.
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Feb 27, 2016 06:06
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CharlestheHammer posted:No Deadpool in general is grim. Though yeah indirect killing is weird. One on one is more personal and grim. I was thinking of the movie, but it's not really important. You can definitely have up-close-and-personal killing be played for fun; think Indiana Jones killing 3 nazis with one bullet, or James Bond killing someone with an exploding gas pill that made them inflate like a balloon.
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Feb 27, 2016 07:39
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CharlestheHammer posted:Killing is by definition grim and gritty. Having it any other way is weird. That's stupid, there's nothing gritty about most golden age heroes and those guys were basically serial killers. In fact a lot of the most over the top edgy and gritty 90s comics featured very little killing, just a lot of grimacing and temper tantrums. Jean Paul Valley killed exactly zero people despite being so 90s he was insane.
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Feb 27, 2016 09:23
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Lurdiak posted:That's stupid, there's nothing gritty about most golden age heroes and those guys were basically serial killers. Yeah, this is basically what I meant. Good post.
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Feb 27, 2016 10:32
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WickedHate posted:I know you're being sarcastic, but that would be cool as gently caress. A: no, it loving wouldn't be, because if they had her kill anyone in any way like that, even if, during the event, Spider-man killed 6 million Jews and grew a Charlie Chaplin moustache, every single headline would be that the Muslim marvel superhero is a terrorist who blew someone up. What is wrong with you? B: no one blinked a loving eye because they didn't show the red goo inside the tank in the aftermath, and they didn't have us spend 5 minutes getting to know the tank crew. It's the same reason why no one cared that Luke killed 20 million storm troopers in the last act of A New Hope. They didn't focus on the aftermath at all. If they had ended Star Wars with a shot of a pair of imperial officers disembarking from a lambda class shuttleand walking up the streets of Suburbooine, the planet all the white collar employees on Coruscant commute from, walking up a sidewalk at a white picketed fence ranch house, to inform the family that their hero son had given his life in a casualty-filled battle, and then leave only to walk next door to do it again, implying that they were going to EVERY house on the planet, that would have had a grim tone.
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Feb 27, 2016 14:23
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kizudarake posted:A: no, it loving wouldn't be, because if they had her kill anyone in any way like that, even if, during the event, Spider-man killed 6 million Jews and grew a Charlie Chaplin moustache, every single headline would be that the Muslim marvel superhero is a terrorist who blew someone up. What is wrong with you? People being poo poo irl isn't my problem. I'm not saying they should do it I would just personally like something like that. kizudarake posted:B: no one blinked a loving eye because they didn't show the red goo inside the tank in the aftermath, and they didn't have us spend 5 minutes getting to know the tank crew. It's the same reason why no one cared that Luke killed 20 million storm troopers in the last act of A New Hope. They didn't focus on the aftermath at all. If they had ended Star Wars with a shot of a pair of imperial officers disembarking from a lambda class shuttleand walking up the streets of Suburbooine, the planet all the white collar employees on Coruscant commute from, walking up a sidewalk at a white picketed fence ranch house, to inform the family that their hero son had given his life in a casualty-filled battle, and then leave only to walk next door to do it again, implying that they were going to EVERY house on the planet, that would have had a grim tone. I don't see how this is a refutation to "death is only grim and sad if you portray it as grim and sad".
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Feb 27, 2016 14:35
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WickedHate posted:People being poo poo irl isn't my problem. You're alive and in society, so yeah it loving is.
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Feb 27, 2016 14:40
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