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Frosted Flake posted:Jus belli, ut qui vicissent, iis quos vicissent, quemadmodum vellent, imperarent. nooooooooo whyyyyyyyyyy Edit: Caesar essentially committed genocide against the Gauls and Belgies. Not exactly who you should hold to a shining example here.
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Mar 2, 2016 21:04
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MA-Horus posted:nooooooooo The Government is paying for me to get a useless degree and I want the taxpayer to get their moneys worth!  e: MA-Horus posted:Edit: Caesar essentially committed genocide against the Gauls and Belgies. Not exactly who you should hold to a shining example here. To paraphrase: Gaul was already divided into three parts. The natives (of Gaul) were happy to commit genocide against themselves long before Caesar arrived. I agree that we can hold ourselves to a higher standard now, but let's not pretend that Canadians were to first or worst conquerors. Frosted Flake fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Mar 2, 2016 |
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Mar 2, 2016 21:06
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Frosted Flake posted:Jus belli, ut qui vicissent, iis quos vicissent, quemadmodum vellent, imperarent. Jordan7hm posted:Ehhhhh the treatment of natives didn't happen in a vacuum, it was a continuation of how Europeans have been treating conquered peoples, including other Europeans, for basically ever. Yeah our rear end in a top hat pedigree is well-established, and guilt isn't a very useful currency. It's a much better use of our time to move forward and do the little things right, like recognize their right to self-determination and let them tell us what they need instead of convening another subcommittee of old white guys to figure out how we're going to save the Indians from themselves again this week. I don't pretend to know what form the meaningful change will take, but if helping their young people learn their own language and respecting their right to exercise their own religious beliefs is what they're asking for I see no reason why they shouldn't have it. "Because residential schools" isn't a complete explanation but "You guys broke that when you tried to genocide us" is and should be an overture to "Here's how we're going to fix it together".
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Mar 2, 2016 21:10
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https://twitter.com/intCountZero/status/704869093954879488/photo/1
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Mar 2, 2016 21:53
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I always said at least one native american language should be taught in High School. It's the least we can do, to learn about the people our ancestors so thorough fully screwed over.
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Mar 2, 2016 22:13
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Canada still probably has much worse prospects in the short-mid term than the US does (assuming that Trump doesn't get elected).
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Mar 2, 2016 22:14
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Cultural Imperial posted:leave it to u to rehash the evils of globalization This is such a perfect distillation of yours (and others) sloppy thinking on this issue that you're sort of doing us all a favour by laying it out so bluntly. Used in this way "globalization" is a meaningless word that amounts to little more than shorthand for "everything that has happened in the last three to four decades". Bringing it up here is a really great way for you to not talk about the actually very specific issue, which is intellectual property law. That isn't "globalization", insofar as patents and copyrights are restrictions on trade they are actually the opposite of the supposed trends of globalization. In fact the way IP law is being handled is a great example of exactly the kind of rent seeking behavior that your regularly decry in slightly different contexts. You'll also be pleased to learn that rejecting the TPP -- which might, among other things, help empower domestic forces in other countries who are against the entire deal, thus helping to scuttle it entirely -- will not somehow magically eject us from all the other trade deals we've signed onto. Even granting that you are not some who seriously engages with anything other people say, that's weak sauce. Sure with momentary effort you could at least troll this thread in a way that contains some glimmer of accuracy. It's funnier and more useful in the grand scheme of things than the increasingly numerous occasions when you just kind of mash out a word salad of random concepts like "SJW" or "microaggression" that you think might get a rise out of people. Have some respect for your own shitposting for heavens sake!
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Mar 2, 2016 22:17
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MonsieurChoc posted:I always said at least one native american language should be taught in High School. It's the least we can do, to learn about the people our ancestors so thorough fully screwed over. 1 mandatory aboriginal studies class in Universities is good start despite the outcry from the Conservative crowd, but a course in High Schools would be much better.
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Mar 2, 2016 22:19
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As much as I want to see more aboriginal self determination and support I think that 'traditional healing' is loving stupid and a waste and that bullshit shouldn't be encouraged. How about we get more real medical support for reserves? poo poo, let's get more natives interested in going to med school.
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Mar 2, 2016 22:20
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blah_blah posted:Canada still probably has much worse prospects in the short-mid term than the US does (assuming that Trump doesn't get elected). Once our economy really starts going to poo poo the chances that people will fall for an authoritarian windbag like Trump here will probably go up After Rob Ford I'm not sure I could handle how fully retarded that would look
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Mar 2, 2016 22:26
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MonsieurChoc posted:I always said at least one native american language should be taught in High School. It's the least we can do, to learn about the people our ancestors so thorough fully screwed over. What do you hope that would accomplish?
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Mar 2, 2016 22:27
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Frosted Flake posted:Jus belli, ut qui vicissent, iis quos vicissent, quemadmodum vellent, imperarent. I've heard this dumb argument from CAF members for years now and its still a dumb one. "We won! tough poo poo!".This stupid argument would only work if Canada's policy today was still neo-expansionist or something and we're busy pretending to be the Caeser's Legion from Fallout. It's a dumb one too because one of the most duplicitious parts of the whole colonization of North America is that we never did in fact outright declare war and conquer another nation, instead we pretended they were basically flora and fauna and then subjugated them all the while saying it was for their own best interest. At least if we had actually outright invaded it like the Spanish did to the Aztecs it wouldn't be as duplicitous. Great job, you quoted a historical figure during a time where international relations happened to only exist in terms of war. Fantastic, we should obviously harken back to the days of Julius Ceaser  . Next up, you're gonna give me some lovely quote from Clausewitz some officer put at the start of his powerpoint? Let me guess, you were a combat arms NCM in the regforce where obviously you learned everything you needed to know about history and ethics from the BMQ-L rantings of your staffMelian Dialogue fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Mar 2, 2016 |
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Mar 2, 2016 22:29
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Might makes right. A coherent ethical basis for a society.
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Mar 2, 2016 22:30
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Doesn't going down to Florida to pray to Jesus and OJ cleanse your kid's cancer away legally qualify as traditional aboriginal healing now?
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Mar 2, 2016 22:31
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Make all Canadian medical school slots reserved entirely for first nations people.
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Mar 2, 2016 22:36
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Please no Indian style reservation system thanks
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Mar 2, 2016 22:37
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Ikantski posted:Doesn't going down to Florida to pray to Jesus and OJ cleanse your kid's cancer away legally qualify as traditional aboriginal healing now? Juul-Whip fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Mar 2, 2016 |
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Mar 2, 2016 22:38
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MonsieurChoc posted:I always said at least one native american language should be taught in High School. It's the least we can do, to learn about the people our ancestors so thorough fully screwed over. For what purpose? There are only so many high school credits to go around. There's already French, which is a lot more useful and people are resentful of that.
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Mar 2, 2016 22:39
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DariusLikewise posted:1 mandatory aboriginal studies class in Universities is good start despite the outcry from the Conservative crowd, but a course in High Schools would be much better. It would be if it weren't taught by an incoherent rambling mess of a man who used Feivel Goes West as a teaching tool by turning it on and not caring when we all hosed off on his classes. Mandating the course is great and all but there should probably be some curriculum in there too.
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Mar 2, 2016 22:39
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THC posted:Nope it's just what those particular people wanted. It's not what is implied by "traditional healing" which will most likely be done alongside, and not to the exclusion of, evidence-based medicine. In this case they were able to get what they wanted -- while avoiding the life saving measures that actual doctors suggested -- specifically because of their native status.
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Mar 2, 2016 22:40
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THC posted:Nope that's just what those particular people wanted in that particular case. It's not what is implied by "traditional healing" which will simply be done alongside, not to the exclusion of, evidence-based medicine. It's been pretty clear for some time that letting people engage in cultural rites and religious practices while they are very sick can and does help in the healing process. What is implied by "traditional healing" is irrelevant. What matters is what you are legally allowed to do to your child under the guise of "traditional healing."
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Mar 2, 2016 22:45
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I'd rather scale back everyone's access to and ability to force useless or dangerous junk medicine on their kids, regardless of their religious or cultural background.
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Mar 2, 2016 22:51
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I would go further and state that in some cases traditional healing equates to failing to provide the necessities of life. Guardians of children are granted immense responsibility and power over the choices of healthcare, and in some cases act against the best interest of the child.
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Mar 2, 2016 22:51
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Baronjutter posted:I'd rather scale back everyone's access to and ability to force useless or dangerous junk medicine on their kids, regardless of their religious or cultural background. You can already opt out of vaccines by completing a couple forms and getting them notarized.
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Mar 2, 2016 22:52
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Melian Dialogue posted:Great job, you quoted a historical figure during a time where international relations happened to only exist in terms of war. What do you think Pax Romana means? Melian Dialogue posted:Let me guess, you were a combat arms NCM in the regforce where obviously you learned everything you needed to know about history and ethics from the BMQ-L rantings of your staff. More or less. Still, medicine men and making Torontonians learn Cree isn't going to help anyone. There are real, practical ways to help out Native people.
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Mar 2, 2016 22:55
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Helsing posted:In this case they were able to get what they wanted -- while avoiding the life saving measures that actual doctors suggested -- specifically because of their native status. Juul-Whip fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Mar 2, 2016 |
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Mar 2, 2016 22:57
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Frosted Flake posted:For what purpose? There are only so many high school credits to go around. There's already French, which is a lot more useful and people are resentful of that. Teaching Canadians a native language in high school would be incredibly useful because then Canadians would have a universal language with which to poo poo talk foreigners vacationing here or when on vacation themselves.
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Mar 2, 2016 22:57
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jm20 posted:You can already opt out of vaccines by completing a couple forms and getting them notarized. Lord no  No exemptions unless medically required.
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Mar 2, 2016 23:02
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Eej posted:Teaching Canadians a native language in high school would be incredibly useful because then Canadians would have a universal language with which to poo poo talk foreigners vacationing here or when on vacation themselves. We already do. 
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Mar 2, 2016 23:02
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Frosted Flake posted:There are real, practical ways to help out Native people. And who better to show them how?
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Mar 2, 2016 23:04
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THC posted:Under current legislation. If we want to talk about legislation to stop that from happening, that's a separate discussion from whether the Feds should provide funding and resources to support traditional aboriginal healing practices in hospitals. Many hospitals already have it! It's not a big deal! Cancer patients aren't smudging instead of receiving chemo in any great numbers that I'm aware of. It's just about making patients and their loved ones more comfortable. Fair point. Frosted Flake posted:What do you think Pax Romana means? You know Caesar was a criminal under Roman law and one of the reasons for his rebellion was that his consular immunity was due to inspire at the end of his term and he knew he was going to be prosecuted for his actions in Gaul.
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Mar 2, 2016 23:04
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Don't most Northern Europe schools offer multiple language classes? I personally think that it would be a great idea to encourage the learning of new languages, especially native ones since then maybe we can understand them better and not think that when one approaches us, they aren't going to immediately ask us for money or booze.
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Mar 2, 2016 23:10
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Helsing posted:You know Caesar was a criminal under Roman law and one of the reasons for his rebellion was that his consular immunity was due to expire at the end of his term and he knew he was going to be prosecuted for his actions in Gaul. Yes. However Gaul went from being a backwater to an integrated, cosmopolitan part of the Empire. As it grew closer to Roman culture, living conditions matched or exceeded those of Italy. Roman roads, Roman laws and Roman towns popped up as well. Gaul had senators by the time of Claudius and would later provide Emperors. Native people are apart from Canadian society. How long will it be before we have a Native PM?
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Mar 2, 2016 23:12
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Excelsiortothemax posted:Don't most Northern Europe schools offer multiple language classes? I personally think that it would be a great idea to encourage the learning of new languages, especially native ones since then maybe we can understand them better and not think that when one approaches us, they aren't going to immediately ask us for money or booze. You could tell people to take a class in High School but if there's no reason for them to use that language in day to day life then they're going to lose it. Most people graduate with high school french and can't even hold onto that after a few years of never using it, and that's the native tongue for one of our most populous and economically significant provinces. For that matter, people are going to continue thinking natives are asking for money or booze if they continue to have natives walking up to them and asking for money or booze, something that happens a fair amount in some areas. The way to solve that isn't through a high school class, its by directly addressing issues like endemic poverty and alcoholism. Natives in this country need actual economic support not more liberal toleration or cultural respect. If anything our Canadian obsession with respecting other cultures has become an excuse for us to ignore problems rather than a genuine celebration of differences.
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Mar 2, 2016 23:16
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Excelsiortothemax posted:Don't most Northern Europe schools offer multiple language classes? I personally think that it would be a great idea to encourage the learning of new languages, especially native ones since then maybe we can understand them better and not think that when one approaches us, they aren't going to immediately ask us for money or booze. Yes, I'm sure teaching "a native language" in high school will fix the fallout from generations of abuse, addiction and poverty.
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Mar 2, 2016 23:17
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I agree that Canada should go further and provide direct economic support, but the cultural enhancement measures are also good. It doesn't have to be all-or-nothing.
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Mar 2, 2016 23:19
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Well I do have to be honest and say that "Canada should be more like the Roman Empire" is not a derail we see very often in this thread.
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Mar 2, 2016 23:20
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Promoting and educating the Maori language in New Zealand hasn't caused them to sink into the sea, I'm sure you ex-CAF racists who think Caesar had the right idea will be fine.
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Mar 2, 2016 23:20
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There's a ton of research that shows that learning another language improves all your language faculties. There's no disadvantage to having people learn another language, even if they don't retain it later on in life. Not sure how you learned about Canadian history and didn't pick up on the fact that British North America signed treaties with its Native peoples, it didn't conquer them with military might. Dreylad fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Mar 2, 2016 |
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Mar 2, 2016 23:21
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Frosted Flake posted:Yes. However Gaul went from being a backwater to an integrated, I thought you were citing Caesar as a legal precedent for how to lawfully deal with conquered peoples? Now you're suggesting Rome is somehow a model for how we deal with our own natives? It's not a great example given the economic and cultural contexts were quite different and the Romans didn't really have an equivalent to our legacy of modern racism.
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Mar 2, 2016 23:23
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