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Quinntan posted:No, a vote for Labour is a vote for at least some of the left's policies to be enacted. There's no way in hell the gay marriage referendum goes through without Labour being involved, for example. Some of the left's policies such as austerity, increased cost of third level education, cutting welfare and restricting it for younger people, HSE being barely funded... I could go on all day. The Marriage Ref was a good thing, but Jesus if that is the only thing they have to show for multiple failings over 5 years what reason does ANYONE have to support them? They were elected on a wave of promises to protect the people who were hurt most by the recession and they failed them. They had their chance in power and they did very, very little to help. Blut posted:It's all well and good to (correctly) disparage Labour's left credentials/actions since 2011 though, but in some constituencies the last seat this week was between an FF/FG candidate and a Labour candidate. In that scenario anyone who actually has left-leaning political views, regardless of party affiliation, should be hoping for a Labour win. I don't think anyone can doubt that both FG and FF are at the very least slightly to the right of Labour. And Labour have far more potential to swing back left than either of FF/FG. Again, the same points. It's not as if Labour are our only left wing party. There are SF, there is AAA/PBP, Social Democrats, Socialists, and a swarth of left leaning Independents. We are not dealing with a FPTP system. Ireland benefits from having a broad spectrum of parties and independent candidates. If we have the opportunity to punish a party who has failed us, we should take it. If Labour come back in 2021 or whenever and have reformed themselves into a party where they will actually put their foot down and represent the poor I will give them a preference. As it stands, myself, and other leftists, have no reason to put any preference for them in 2016. EDIT: The point that the left splits and can be reluctant to work together is true, but I do not think that this is the main reason for people pulling away from Labour in 2016. kustomkarkommando posted:PBP have been making a ruckus in West Belfast attacking SF for being weak on austerity and have been found quite a bit of agreement with voters, they are posed to take one seat from them in the next assembly election there. I will concede this point. I honestly do not know much of the current political rumblings in the North. I still find it hard to blame SF with the way the political system is set up in the North, but I will listen to people who know more about the North. Shame to hear, tbh. Skull Servant fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Feb 29, 2016 |
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Feb 29, 2016 17:40
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There's always the SocDems.
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Feb 29, 2016 19:07
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lemonadesweetheart posted:A vote for labour is a vote for FF or FG depending on who takes power and a lot of people are sick of it. No, a vote for Labour is a vote for Labour. You're arguing as if its a vote for Labour vs a vote for PBP or SF or the SocDems. But with our STV system you can vote for all of them, in descending order of preference. A candidate from any of those parties would be better than one from FF or FG, if you've got in any way progressive or leftish views. Joan Burton made a lot of mistakes, for example. But would you rather her in the Dail or someone like FF's young-gun Jack Chambers? A 25 year old who's resolutely Pro-Life for some inexplicable reason: https://www.facebook.com/LovinDublin/videos/1309297732430327/ Because in a lot of constituencies that is what it came down to on later counts. If SF/PBP votes had transferred en masse to Labour when the SF/PBP candidate was eliminated, it could have kept more FG/FF candidates out. But instead SF focused on Labour as being evil, the votes didn't transfer and went to waste, and conservative/centre-right TDs got elected. Cabinet posted:Again, the same points. It's not as if Labour are our only left wing party. There are SF, there is AAA/PBP, Social Democrats, Socialists, and a swarth of left leaning Independents. We are not dealing with a FPTP system. Ireland benefits from having a broad spectrum of parties and independent candidates. If we have the opportunity to punish a party who has failed us, we should take it. If Labour come back in 2021 or whenever and have reformed themselves into a party where they will actually put their foot down and represent the poor I will give them a preference. As it stands, myself, and other leftists, have no reason to put any preference for them in 2016. As above, I completely respect people being disillusioned with Labour and giving other parties their higher preference votes. But I just think its very disingenuous of SF to attack Labour so much when they're from broadly the same side of the political spectrum. The real enemy isn't other left-wing politicians who have drifted towards the centre (like Labour), it's the hard/centre-right conservatives in FF/FG/Renua. "punishing Labour" by allowing FF/FG candidates to get elected doesn't do the country any good. The prospect of 5 years of a FF/FG government that we now face should fill everyone under 40 or in a lower-income-tax-band with dread.
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Feb 29, 2016 19:08
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Blut posted:"punishing Labour" by allowing FF/FG candidates to get elected doesn't do the country any good. The prospect of 5 years of a FF/FG government that we now face should fill everyone under 40 or in a lower-income-tax-band with dread. To be fair an FG/FF government isn't lasting five years. I'd doubt it even lasting five months to be honest.
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Feb 29, 2016 19:20
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Jesus are they going to get this Dublin Bay North count finished for the 10th
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Feb 29, 2016 19:32
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The fact is that a vote for Labour was always a vote for a FG/Labour coalition. Leftists were tired of feeding Labour votes just so they can prop FG up. Maybe circumstances would be different if Labour weren't so married to FG and expressed an openness to coalition with SF and other leftists. This was not the case in 2016. They were passive in government and they were passive in the election. They deserved what they got. The problem you are addressing isn't one of leftists not voting Labour. It's people voting for FG or FF. When it comes down to brass tacks what exactly would happen if Labour got as many seats as 2011? If your answer isn't that they would prop up FG then I don't know what to tell you. People don't want another 5 years of FG/Labour. The reason they don't want it is because of how bad Labour handled being in government. Also, the point still stands that a FF/FG will not be stable. Both sides will be ratfucking each other instantly. Hard to see how either party comes out the better in that instance. The opposition parties like SF. SocDems, AAA/PBP, and yes even Labour if they are excluded will benefit hugely from a FF/FG government.
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Feb 29, 2016 19:37
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Indications from tallies that Tommy Broughan may grab the fourth seat in Dublin West. What's the odds of him rejoining Labour (again) if they don't grab a seventh
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Feb 29, 2016 20:02
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Cabinet posted:The fact is that a vote for Labour was always a vote for a FG/Labour coalition. Leftists were tired of feeding Labour votes just so they can prop FG up. Maybe circumstances would be different if Labour weren't so married to FG and expressed an openness to coalition with SF and other leftists. This was not the case in 2016. They were passive in government and they were passive in the election. They deserved what they got. The problem I'm addressing is not people voting for FG or FF. They're already lost causes/awful people. My problem is when you see SF/AAA candidates being eliminated, and their votes aren't transferring to Labour candidates still in the running. Thats a lack of lower preference voting for LAB from people of leftist views. Labour were never in line to get as many seats in 2011 as part of an unpopular government. But lets say they got a LOT of transfers and got 15 more seats, so were sitting at 22. And FG/FF both got 5-8ish seats less than they currently have, so were both sitting around 40. That's a very optimistic, but still possible outcome. We'd still be facing a FF/FG government, but we'd have a lot more leftish TDs in the Dail. Presuming more gains for LAB/SF/AAA etc in the next election we'd then be looking at the possible prospect of a LAB/SF/others left-wing coalition government. Instead, with Labour being eviscerated and more seats going to FF/FG as a result we're going to have a more stable FF/FG government than otherwise. And the sum total of 'left' parties is only 38 (LAB/SF/AAA/SD/GR) seats. Which means they'd need to double their numbers in any new election to form a government, which seems unfortunately unlikely. Basically, it just seems self-defeating of any proclaimed leftist to not give Labour a lower preference vote. Because its not SF/AAA you help, its FF/FG.
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Feb 29, 2016 20:05
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Blut posted:The problem I'm addressing is not people voting for FG or FF. They're already lost causes/awful people. My problem is when you see SF/AAA candidates being eliminated, and their votes aren't transferring to Labour candidates still in the running. Thats a lack of lower preference voting for LAB from people of leftist views. I'd think another FG/LAB government would have been more stable than whatever FF & FG are going to agree to. I think a lot of people voting left had the same thinking as myself. I didn't want Labour picking up enough seats to give FG the opportunity to lead us for another 5 years with support from them and a couple of independents.
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Feb 29, 2016 20:37
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Blut posted:The problem I'm addressing is not people voting for FG or FF. They're already lost causes/awful people. They're also over half the 2016 electorate judging by first preferences in this election. If you're casting out over half the electorate as lost causes or awful people, ye'll never get anywhere. Besides, if over half the electorate is going for the centre-right, as has happened in pretty much every national election ever in this country, it will take a lot of work from the left to get close to getting a leading party in a government.
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Feb 29, 2016 20:39
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Quinntan posted:They're also over half the 2016 electorate judging by first preferences in this election. If you're casting out over half the electorate as lost causes or awful people, ye'll never get anywhere. Besides, if over half the electorate is going for the centre-right, as has happened in pretty much every national election ever in this country, it will take a lot of work from the left to get close to getting a leading party in a government. Of course ignoring the incumbent effect and the fact that these people have been the only parties in government since the foundation of the state, the fact that these parties have a lot more funding for advertising and for campaigners. There is also the fact that a lot of people just don't care for politics and vote for whoever their parents voted for pretty much. And of course you have the whole idea that these two juggernauts of Irish politics can only muster half of the popular vote together. The results for both parties are disappointing. This is hardly a victory for the centre right. Blut posted:The problem I'm addressing is not people voting for FG or FF. They're already lost causes/awful people. My problem is when you see SF/AAA candidates being eliminated, and their votes aren't transferring to Labour candidates still in the running. Thats a lack of lower preference voting for LAB from people of leftist views. My point still stands, that there are plenty of other options to vote left and not Labour. I really don't think that FF/FG sucked up as many Labour seats as the other left leaning candidates. We aren't dealing with a Conservative/Lib Dem situation here. Skull Servant fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Feb 29, 2016 |
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Feb 29, 2016 20:55
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Cabinet posted:And of course you have the whole idea that these two juggernauts of Irish politics can only muster half of the popular vote together. The results for both parties are disappointing. This is hardly a victory for the centre right. The whole of the left, including Labour, doesn't even get a third of the popular vote. It's progress since 2007, to be sure, but whether ye can continue making gains is something I'd be curious about.
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Feb 29, 2016 21:33
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Quinntan posted:The whole of the left, including Labour, doesn't even get a third of the popular vote. It's progress since 2007, to be sure, but whether ye can continue making gains is something I'd be curious about. I would be very surprised if the left didn't continue to make gains with the current climate. The left's biggest issues are the incumbent effect and the uninterested voter's fear of change.
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Feb 29, 2016 21:45
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O Riordain is gone. Labour ain't going make 7 seats
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Mar 1, 2016 14:46
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So how likely is it that there is another election in 12 months?
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Mar 1, 2016 21:01
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Crowsbeak posted:So how likely is it that there is another election in 12 months? Likely, but we really won't know until we see who will and won't work with who.
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Mar 1, 2016 21:04
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Cabinet posted:My point still stands, that there are plenty of other options to vote left and not Labour. I really don't think that FF/FG sucked up as many Labour seats as the other left leaning candidates. We aren't dealing with a Conservative/Lib Dem situation here. The number of other left options isn't relevant to my point at all - once again, its that anyone of leftish political views not giving LAB even a low preference vote potentially results in an extra FF/FG candidate. Which is wasteful, if they actually want to increase the influence of leftish political views in the Dail. Anyway, in other news the lack of a result in Longford-Westmeath is getting a bit ridiculous at this stage. It looks like it'll be tomorrow at the earliest before we have anything...a solid 6 days from the election day. Paddypower have the odds of another election this year at 50%. Which is a bit lower than I expected. They must have some confidence in FF & FG reaching an agreement of some sort. The Indo are reporting that FF are demanding an end to water charges and replacement of Enda as preconditions for a supply & confidence agreement. God knows how they'll handle abolishing water charges if that comes to pass. They can't not refund those who've already paid without a massive backlash, but don't seem to be able to go forward with enforcing the charges either. Quite a mess.
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Mar 3, 2016 00:21
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Longford may wind up in this high court at this stage, the RTE constituency twitter account is saying that people are now talking photos of disallowed ballots - apparently it may be down to single digit differences if gossip is anything to go by.
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Mar 3, 2016 00:30
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I read somewhere that Penrose was originally ahead of Bannon by 1 vote, then ahead by 3 votes after the most recent recount. Crazily close if so.
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Mar 3, 2016 00:59
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One of the possible challengers to Enda, Simon Coveney, seems to have botched any leadership bid before talk even started after he said on RTE Prime Time that FG where "willing to talk about water" as part of coalition negotiations only to go back on the TV the next day and "clarify" that they "are not proposing to do away with water charges" - an embarrassing situation as it seemed to indicate FG could bend slightly to FF's position of suspending water charges for a temporary period, something which many in the party do not seem keen on. Disgraced former TD Alan Shatter (which is what I insist on calling him from now on) went on the attack and made a lot of noise complaining about the FG leadership - maybe not a sign of a full blown heave in the offing but sounds like he's a bit grumpy Oh, and Mr Kenny will be going to Washington after all for the St Patrick's day state visit. Cutting it down to about 2 days (I think) but he will turn up and shake a few hands - even though by that stage he will most likely have lost the confidence of the Dail and may even have symbolically tendered his resignation (which he's obliged to do, though of course he doesn't actually leave office until a replacement has been selected and if he subsequently wins a vote then he can stay on). One of the interesting things I think will be seeing how the votes for Taoiseach fall on the 10th. If Martin gets more than Kenny it may flip negotiations on their head. kustomkarkommando fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Mar 3, 2016 |
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Mar 3, 2016 01:24
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Has the left ever really been significant in Ireland? I'm really glad for the result it seems like there's a strong left opposition now and hopefully it gains momentum for whenever the next election will be.
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Mar 3, 2016 01:39
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Bedshaped posted:Has the left ever really been significant in Ireland? There are long arguments about this but politically not significantly - the high water-mark for mass left wing political activity was probably about 1918-22/23 when the general strike strategy adopted by the Labour Party lead to quite a bit of support. Increasing conflict between the Free State and the Labour movement in the 20's (which saw several strikes broken by force) and ongoing violent land agitation in the country put the Labour party in an awkward position - they opposed the Civil War on principle and had repeatedly called for a respect of democracy and the institutions of the state (there was still lingering concerns about a coup or another outbreak of violence until about 24) and thus did not push a confrontational line. Then there was some bitter feuding between Labour and other smaller left-wing groups set against the backdrop of the rise of Fianna Fail who managed to squeeze out many left-wing groups through their brand of populist nationalism, from the late 20's through the 30's various small groups folded and joined Labour - then the Spanish civil war started and the red-baiting and fear of communist infiltrators in Labour was regularly trotted out to great effect at the polls so generally Leaders tended towards the moderate/old trade union interpretation for quite some time. There was a decade-ish long flirtation with more assertive socialist policy in the 60's under Christian Socialist Brendan Corish that was successful enough - up until another coalition with FG... The only other left wing party that made an impact on the popular vote was the Workers Party in the 80's up until their split, when the democratic socialists splintered off - and joined Labour eventually. Edit: there was a period in the 30s-40s as well where the various new factions in Labour tried directing the party to a more socialist platform and there was a lot of general dissatisfaction due to the economic slump that saw various social-democrat and left wing groups regain some ground lost since the 20s but feuds and splits generally hampered the left from taking full advantage of it - as will as general public hostility to perceived communism etc. kustomkarkommando fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Mar 3, 2016 |
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Mar 3, 2016 02:28
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Blut posted:The number of other left options isn't relevant to my point at all - once again, its that anyone of leftish political views not giving LAB even a low preference vote potentially results in an extra FF/FG candidate. Which is wasteful, if they actually want to increase the influence of leftish political views in the Dail. I think the issue here is you are treating STV like FPTP. Not giving Labour a preference does not mean that FG or FF will get the seat. The leftist support will drift to the leftist parties. The issue there is the Labour voter putting FG (or less likely FF) as a preference. With regards to leftism in Ireland, one could argue that the people of the 1916 Rising were trying to build a socialist Ireland. It's a weak argument because it ignores a lot of the different groups who were involved in the Rising, but it is an argument nonetheless. You can also argue that even our right wing parties have been more left wing than similar centre right parties in other counties. Anecdotal, but I have found that despite Canada's touting of being so liberal they actually have eroded a lot of workers rights, the welfare state exists, but is not as strong as Ireland's is also. Of course there is the factors of US osmosis and Harper's 10 years in power but that isn't for this thread. We do seem to be seeing a surging in leftism and it resonates strongly with the population. We will have to see how that will play out with regards to the recovery. If we do find ourselves in a comfortable position it may wash away for the most part and we could settle back into the status quo. Skull Servant fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Mar 3, 2016 |
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Mar 3, 2016 02:43
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Finally a conclusion, Bannon eliminated in Longford-West Meath - Penrose and Burke in after Brannon's votes transfered. Labour have been spared complete humiliation. Bannon was only 6 votes behind Penrose.
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Mar 3, 2016 09:31
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Cabinet posted:I think the issue here is you are treating STV like FPTP. Not giving Labour a preference does not mean that FG or FF will get the seat. The leftist support will drift to the leftist parties. The issue there is the Labour voter putting FG (or less likely FF) as a preference. http://www.rte.ie/news/election-2016/constituencies/dublin-bay-south/ http://www.rte.ie/news/election-2016/constituencies/kildare-south/ http://www.rte.ie/news/election-2016/constituencies/kildare-north/ http://www.rte.ie/news/election-2016/constituencies/louth/ http://www.rte.ie/news/election-2016/constituencies/clare/ For illustrative purposes, here are 5 constituencies where if SF/AAA votes had transferred in a higher number to LAB after the SF/AAA candidate was eliminated there would have been a seat less for FF/FG. To use the top example, Dublin Bay South, when the SF candidate was eliminated only 50% of his 5200 odd votes were redistributed. 85% of the candidate eliminated before him's votes were redistributed, for reference. The LAB candidate only got 600 votes of the 2600 that were redistributed. The LAB candidate then missed out on the final seat, to an FG candidate, by 300 votes. If 400 more of the 2600 unused SF votes had gone to the LAB candidate we'd have one less FG TD in the Dail. Or, either, if the LAB candidate had received more transfers of the votes that were transferred.This is the core of what I think seems wasteful. Not giving LAB a preference after AAA/SF, in those examples, very explicitly gave FF/FG seats. It wasn't a large number of preferences going to FF/FG, it was a lack of ones going to LAB. As someone with leftish political views, I think the Dail and country would have been better off with 5 more LAB TDs rather than FF/FG ones. Despite what SF may wish you to believe, not giving LAB/the SDs/other left parties that aren't SF your lower preferences will very much give seats to FF/FG even in our STV system. The number of left TDs in this Dail actually went down quite considerably unfortunately, so I wouldn't hold my breath too much on a leftish surge. There were 63 TDs on the left in 2011, but only 47 now in 2016. The Irish public, outside of under 30s and city dwellers, seems to prefer FF's brand of populism.
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Mar 3, 2016 12:45
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Blut posted:The number of left TDs in this Dail actually went down quite considerably unfortunately, so I wouldn't hold my breath too much on a leftish surge. There were 63 TDs on the left in 2011, but only 47 now in 2016. The Irish public, outside of under 30s and city dwellers, seems to prefer FF's brand of populism. Labour in coalition did almost nothing for the left. So we've actually gone from 26 left TDs in opposition to 40 left TDs in opposition. So I would call that a significant gain.
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Mar 3, 2016 16:20
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kustomkarkommando posted:Finally a conclusion, Bannon eliminated in Longford-West Meath - Penrose and Burke in after Brannon's votes transfered. Labour have been spared complete humiliation. Bit disappointing. I was looking forward to Joan not having speaking rights.
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Mar 3, 2016 19:17
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Sounds like Pat the Cope Gallagher may be emerging as the front runner for Ceann Comhairle - FG don't seem that interested as it would mean losing a seat, no way Labour is going to throw away a seat as well. SF have nominated Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin and there's talk of Finian McGrath maybe running. Might make Martin happy as Gallagher practically forced his way back into his seat, supposedly he is still well miffed with Martin over the 2014 Euro elections when the party decided to run two candidates in his constituency - he's a member of the old guard and doesn't necessarily see eye to eye with Martin. Punting him off to shout at people and stand up a lot might get rid of him.
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Mar 3, 2016 20:53
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Bedshaped posted:Labour in coalition did almost nothing for the left. Exactly this. Even if Labour were in power they did piss all. They married themselves to FG and if you were voting for Labour you were voting for them to prop up a FG government. If Labour got more seats who exactly would they prop up in government, Blut? kustomkarkommando posted:Sounds like Pat the Cope Gallagher may be emerging as the front runner for Ceann Comhairle - FG don't seem that interested as it would mean losing a seat, no way Labour is going to throw away a seat as well. SF have nominated Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin and there's talk of Finian McGrath maybe running. Seems odd that FF would sacrifice a seat but if he wants to get Gallagher out of the way it works very well.
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Mar 3, 2016 21:52
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Cabinet posted:Seems odd that FF would sacrifice a seat but if he wants to get Gallagher out of the way it works very well. Getting someone in the seat to back FFs attempts to fiddle with the standing orders would be a plus for them, and I'm sure the rest of the opposition would prefer someone from the opposition being given the reigns of the Dail rather than another government TD (if FFs plan for the time being is to remain in opposition with a confidence deal as it seems to be)
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Mar 3, 2016 21:57
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kustomkarkommando posted:Getting someone in the seat to back FFs attempts to fiddle with the standing orders would be a plus for them, and I'm sure the rest of the opposition would prefer someone from the opposition being given the reigns of the Dail rather than another government TD (if FFs plan for the time being is to remain in opposition with a confidence deal as it seems to be) It's a risky move if they go into a supply deal and also go for CC. It could backfire hardcore or they could actually end up taking government next election.
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Mar 3, 2016 22:02
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Cabinet posted:Exactly this. Even if Labour were in power they did piss all. They married themselves to FG and if you were voting for Labour you were voting for them to prop up a FG government. If Labour got more seats who exactly would they prop up in government, Blut? I'll take your lack of engagement with the above figures as a backing down from your "Not giving Labour a preference does not mean that FG or FF will get the seat." factually incorrect stance so! If LAB were plus 5-10 seats currently they wouldn't be propping anyone up in government. We'd still be looking at an FG minority or FG/FF coalition government. There would just be less FG/FF TDs. Which would be helpful in the next election, when every extra left leaning TD would increase the possibility of a genuine 'left' government - one that excludes both FF & FG. Any potential left government in the near future is realistically going to have to contain LAB/SF/AAA/SD/GR at the minimum, and that's being very optimistic given their current combined seat numbers. On the Ceann Comhairle PaddyPower has Sean O'Fearghaill (4.33), Pat the Cope Gallagher (4.33), Michael Ring (4.33), Fergus O'Dowd (5.00) as favourites, at decimal odds. I think it'll go to one of the two FF options there. FG are still too traumatized from their election losses to give up another seat, and it'll prove a useful negotiation carrot to use with FF.
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Mar 3, 2016 22:35
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Blut posted:I'll take your lack of engagement with the above figures as a backing down from your "Not giving Labour a preference does not mean that FG or FF will get the seat." factually incorrect stance so! No, I did not engage because it is still an amazing misunderstanding of STV. You cited five seats of 30 that Labour lost. You also ignore that we have seen an increase in left wing TDs. You also seem to ignore how against SF Labour are and were. They are, were, and seemingly always will be, very against combining forces with other left parties. They will stick to one of the big two and that is that. This will forever mark them in leftist minds as not being true leftists. They are very happy to talk the talk of being leftist but when they get into government they suddenly forget about that and back FG because it we just have to. You seem to be very stuck on the notion that Labour will somehow suddenly become leftist when their track record for years has not proven that. Labour will not save the left in Ireland and the left does not need to support Labour. We have other options.
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Mar 4, 2016 01:23
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Sinn Fein is the SNP and Labour is Labour, got it.
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Mar 4, 2016 02:45
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Sinn Fein is Sinn Fein.
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Mar 4, 2016 10:16
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Cabinet posted:No, I did not engage because it is still an amazing misunderstanding of STV. You cited five seats of 30 that Labour lost. You also ignore that we have seen an increase in left wing TDs. I cited 5 seats, because I said from the outset it was 5-10 seats. They were the first 5 seats I came across to illustrate my point. It's a pretty clear demonstration of the mathematics of STV. You initially argued that "Not giving Labour a preference does not mean that FG or FF will get the seat." when those figures prove it did exactly that in multiple constituencies. If more of SF/AAA-PBP's voters had utilized their lower preference votes to vote for other left-wing parties we would have less FF & FG TD's in the Dail today. You seem to be of the opinion that only hard-left parties are the 'true left', but its delusional to think that Ireland will ever have a government made up of only SF and the AAA-PBP. The middle classes are never going to vote for them.The centre-left parties, ie at present LAB, the Greens and the SDs, will be required in any leftish government. There aren't enough 'left' voters to support a broad spectrum left government as it is, nevermind one that excludes the soft / centre-left parties like LAB and the SDs. LAB in the last 50 years have been the only major leftish party involved in Irish governmental politics. Given SF's implemented policies so far while in government up North, LAB are likely to keep that record for some time. For the record, I actually potentially would quite like to see an SF/AAA-PBP government, for one term at least. But its just not realistically going to happen without the support of centre-left parties. And even at that it'll require almost doubling the number of left TDs in the Dail to achieve it - a tall order. If there is ever to be a chance of an actual 'left' government in Ireland all of the parties on the left should be encouraging transfers to each other, not engaging in partisan attacks than benefit the centre-right parties.
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Mar 4, 2016 14:02
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Blut, you're not going to convince anyone that Labour should get seats over FF or FG until Labour proves it can go into government and not just follow lock step whatever FF or FG want to do. You're absolutely right that it makes sense that people should do this but right now people don't see any real difference between a seat going Labour or a seat going FF or FG and they're not far wrong. This kick in the balls still hasn't registered properly with labour because they're still whining that they were just doing what was best for the country instead of sacking up and realising that the reason they only have 7 seats now is because of their last five years in government. Irish people are like goldfish so maybe next cycle you'll see the labour resurgence you seem to want.
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Mar 4, 2016 14:43
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How is the whole "forming a government" thing going? What happens if FF/FG don't agree to form a government; new election?
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Mar 4, 2016 15:38
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Bedshaped posted:How is the whole "forming a government" thing going? It's still under negotiation with no real details. Most likely outcome is a FG minority government with FF as main opposition with some kind of agreement on how to get stuff passed agreed between the two. If it ends up as an impasse it'll go to a new general election but nobody elected will actually want that to happen.
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Mar 4, 2016 16:12
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Negotiations are probably gonna take a while by the sound of it, I wouldn't expect any agreement this month.
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Mar 4, 2016 16:23
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