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It would really be cool, though, if someone made a mod so that Technician wasn't such garbage. I don't feel like it's reasonable to ask people to sink 80+ points just for turrets and tripmines, with a few quality of life items.
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Mar 8, 2016 08:26
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LuciferMorningstar posted:It would really be cool, though, if someone made a mod so that Technician wasn't such garbage. I don't feel like it's reasonable to ask people to sink 80+ points just for turrets and tripmines, with a few quality of life items. Tripmines are early-tree stuff but C4 ought to be the same kind of investment as a saw or doorbuster ECMs seeing as though it is a similar instant-bypass kind of thing. I haven't played in a pretty long time (overwatch beta, that's why  ) but if turrets are still the situational gadget they were back around the time Bodhi got released then sure knock yourself out.
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Mar 8, 2016 15:37
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LuciferMorningstar posted:It would really be cool, though, if someone made a mod so that Technician wasn't such garbage. I don't feel like it's reasonable to ask people to sink 80+ points just for turrets and tripmines, with a few quality of life items. Why the gently caress? Tripmines suck. You want shaped charges, and that's it. Demolition Man adds another tripmine. Aced decreases the deploy time. Does the Aced version even affect shaped charges? No one knows, because no one has not had this aced if they're getting shape charges on their build. Combat Engineer gives you the ability to turn mines on and off. So loving what? We're only using them for shape charges anyway, I mean if some people want to use them for tripmines that's an awesome ability but if we just want shape charges this is stupid. Do we want the Aced version? Upgrades tripmines with a sensor mode. So, no, it's only stuff related to using the mines. We want shape charges. Tactical Mines is more stuff relating to explosion size and in the Aced version the sensor mode mentioned earlier. PASS. Jack of All Trades increases explosion size even more. Ugh. But the Aced version is interesting if you like Sentries, since it allows you to carry both. And finally Shaped Charge which is what we need in the first place. You spend 78 points to ace all the way up, 5 of those points in other skills just to go further up the tree, with 8 of those points specifically going into an ability that doesn't make sense unless you also have Sentries. I say there is a better way. First, you will have to buy Demolition Man, you want the additional charge. Skip the aced version. You can ace up both of the loud drill skills along with Nerves of Steel, Rifleman, and Sharpshooter and STILL fall short of Shape Charges by five points. If at this point you buy the first level of Sentry Gun and Silent Drilling, you get exactly the amount of points needed. Or screw the silent drill all together and go straight up the Sentry Gun branch. Either way, you can then just pick up Shape Charges. You spend 39 points total, get drills (arguably more important) and Shape Charges (totally awesome).
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Mar 8, 2016 17:07
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The only time shape charges really reward you for investing a bunch of points in a crap skill tree is during armored transport jobs, and apparently I'm the only one who enjoys those?
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Mar 8, 2016 17:21
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true on both notes
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Mar 8, 2016 17:29
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Skunkrocker posted:Why the gently caress? Tripmines suck. You want shaped charges, and that's it. When I say tripmines, I mean tripmines that can also be used as shaped charges. I guess I'll just say C4 from here on out. FAUXTON posted:Tripmines are early-tree stuff but C4 ought to be the same kind of investment as a saw or doorbuster ECMs seeing as though it is a similar instant-bypass kind of thing. I haven't played in a pretty long time (overwatch beta, that's why Here's the deal: C4 loving blows. Someone can check me on this, but I'm pretty sure that of all the door-opening/obstacle-clearing items, C4 is the least-frequently useful, while requiring investing at least as many points as any other "opening item" (and usually more, with less overall utility in terms of the skills you pick up along the way). If you want to max-out your C4 skills to get everything you can out of them (so that they're not totally worthless on most heists, where they don't open stuff up), you're looking at investing a minimum of 39 points, 25 of which are spent on C4-related skills alone. Compare this to ECMs. To get 2 ECMs that open doors, you invest a minimum of 39 points, of which 17 points are invested in ECM-related skills. Arguably less point-intensive than C4, and you get a number of good/decent skills along the way. If you want to max out ECMs, you're looking at 54 points, of which 37 points are in ECM skills. At that point, though, your ECMs can do the Feedback thing, which probably has marginally more utility than C4 across all heists. ECMs are still garbage, though, and there's a reason people who use them get laughed at. Comparing C4 to ECMs to argue that one of the two is good really doesn't make sense outside of a vacuum. Or you could just invest 31 points to bring a saw, and get all the other excellent Enforcer skills along the way. I'm also fairly certain that the saw is the most universally-useful opener. Turrets are dumb for a similar reason. They're even more expensive (54 points to max out, of which 40 are spent on turret skills). The "good news" is that you could pick up some C4 skills along the way, but you'd have to bring your total up to 78 points spent to be able to take C4 and turrets. And that's with only 1 point in drill skills, so you're not getting that utility until you spend even more points. 76 of those 78 points are spent on deployable-related skills, which is loving nuts relative to literally every other tree.
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Mar 8, 2016 17:34
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Dr Cheeto posted:The only time shape charges really reward you for investing a bunch of points in a crap skill tree is during armored transport jobs, and apparently I'm the only one who enjoys those? They can be handy on HoxBreak, too.
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Mar 8, 2016 17:35
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Tempest_56 posted:They can be handy on HoxBreak, too. let's not spoil this thread with cheap lies
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Mar 8, 2016 17:43
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"I can name two heists on which C4 is useful! It makes fewer cops spawn and shortens the heist by 30 seconds! That means C4 is useful, right guys? RIGHT???"
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Mar 8, 2016 17:45
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ATs become 4-minute high-speed low-drag blitzes with proper application of C4 and a saw. Otherwise it's "Symphony of the Broke-Dick Piece-Of-poo poo Drills in F major".
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Mar 8, 2016 17:54
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Dr Cheeto posted:ATs become 4-minute high-speed low-drag blitzes with proper application of C4 and a saw. Otherwise it's "Symphony of the Broke-Dick Piece-Of-poo poo Drills in F major". they're still poo poo
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Mar 8, 2016 17:55
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Afraid of Audio posted:they're still poo poo Please show me on the bobblehead where the train heist touched you.
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Mar 8, 2016 17:56
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train heist is fine? at's have too low payout and too much skill investment to make me want to play them over literally any other heist
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Mar 8, 2016 18:03
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I think discussing C4 in such terms is kind of mistaken. We all know the reason people use technician is for bulletproof, so we may as well consider bulletproof a 40 point skill with some stupid drill bonuses along for the ride. C4 should be considered in terms of how much it pushes you over 40 (which is 3) and how it competes with other ways of climbing technician (specifically Shockproof, which can get you up with no wastage), and what those points might be better spent on. So if you're making a techforcer, you're giving up 3 points and Shockproof to get C4. I'm not sure how much mileage you actually get out of those 3 points, since this build has Bulletproof, Ironman, and Swan Song. So you'd be giving up Fast Hands and Cat Burglar I guess? But really you're giving them up for very marginal gain. It's useful a handful of times (AT is the strong one, but it's useful on BB if you can't find both keycards, good for Firestarter days 1 & 2, and uh I dunno probably something), but shockproof is kind of always great.
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Mar 8, 2016 18:22
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Also they made Sharpshooter, which was originally a pretty decent filler skill, basically worthless. I'm actually left wondering if they completely hosed up their math on that, rather than intentionally nerfing it.
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Mar 8, 2016 18:30
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Somewhere in the explosives skill tree (no change in points invested) should be 50% faster reload with things that go boom incl HE shotgun (stacks with shotgun reload) and HE arrows/crossbow bolts. Also explosive resistance for danger close operations.
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Mar 8, 2016 18:38
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John Murdoch posted:Also they made Sharpshooter, which was originally a pretty decent filler skill, basically worthless. I'm actually left wondering if they completely hosed up their math on that, rather than intentionally nerfing it. Sharpshooter screws up your loco etc., making it worse than useless imho. Fellis posted:Somewhere in the explosives skill tree (no change in points invested) should be 50% faster reload with things that go boom incl HE shotgun (stacks with shotgun reload) and HE arrows/crossbow bolts. Also explosive resistance for danger close operations. This would be a great idea.
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Mar 8, 2016 18:42
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Afraid of Audio posted:train heist is fine? at's have too low payout and too much skill investment to make me want to play them over literally any other heist Sorry, I was trying to make a joke about how terrible that heist was before they made it standalone. It's a great heist now, but boy it used to be a stinker. You're absolutely right about the payout, it's peanuts especially compared to the newer heists.
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Mar 8, 2016 19:12
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It's less that you're giving up 3 points for C4 and more that you're giving up shockproof C4 is useful on 2 heists if you are generous, shockproof is useful any time a taser has spawned
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Mar 8, 2016 19:13
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Coolguye posted:let's not spoil this thread with cheap lies It's good for Day 2 when everybody fucks up duping the keycards.
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Mar 8, 2016 19:17
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Tempest_56 posted:It's good for Day 2 when everybody fucks up duping the keycards. i warned you
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Mar 8, 2016 19:22
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LuciferMorningstar posted:When I say tripmines, I mean tripmines that can also be used as shaped charges. I guess I'll just say C4 from here on out. Stop putting points into tripmine skills if you're never going to use them, then. I outlined a perfectly good shape charge build and the only time you need to be using charges is on ATs and that's only if you want to speed up the heist. If you want to continue clicking cops and not worry about your speed, you don't even have to buy C4 skills at all. I don't understand why you think you need them. If you're bringing shaped charges A. it's to speed up time dealing with things that can't be sawed, specifically the transport doors or safes. B. you will NEVER use them for tripmines. Either you're spending 8 points on a skill you'll never use, or you're spending 23 points on skills you don't need, and 3 points of that is debatable. There is an additional 8-12 point difference if you also want to bring a sentry. EDIT: also tripmines suck. Skunkrocker fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Mar 8, 2016 |
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Mar 8, 2016 19:25
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Skunkrocker posted:Stop putting points into tripmine skills yes, also dont spec for c4
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Mar 8, 2016 19:27
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Coolguye posted:It's less that you're giving up 3 points for C4 and more that you're giving up shockproof Shockproof is A++. I used to think it was kind of average, but after running it a bit, even just basic is ridiculously useful. Skunkrocker posted:Stop putting points into tripmine skills if you're never going to use them, then. I outlined a perfectly good shape charge build and the only time you need to be using charges is on ATs and that's only if you want to speed up the heist. If you want to continue clicking cops and not worry about your speed, you don't even have to buy C4 skills at all. I don't understand why you think you need them. You're missing the point: Technician is chock-full of garbage, more so than any other tree. C4/turrets ought to be viable without sinking tons of points into them, because they're actually kind of amusing to use at times. Case in point: spotter trip mines. It's nice to know where the cloakers and tasers are running around at, but the point burden is absolutely asinine.
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Mar 8, 2016 19:29
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Guys check out my Ghostnician build
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Mar 8, 2016 19:30
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can we not and say we did
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Mar 8, 2016 19:32
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Afraid of Audio posted:train heist is fine? at's have too low payout and too much skill investment to make me want to play them over literally any other heist I still think they're fun. 
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Mar 8, 2016 19:33
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Grapplejack posted:I still think they're fun. well youre wrong!!!!!!!!!!
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Mar 8, 2016 19:36
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The bigger problem is that shaped charges are useless because Overkill doesn't even design for their use anymore. When's the last time we had a heist where you could even use them for anything? I can't think of a single spot in the last ten new heists where they can even be planted.
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Mar 8, 2016 19:37
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There's lots of places C4 can be used It's just that its mission equipment C4
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Mar 8, 2016 19:38
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if you made it so trip mines got put in the grenade slot theyd be infinitely more usable
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Mar 8, 2016 19:40
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LuciferMorningstar posted:Case in point: spotter trip mines. It's nice to know where the cloakers and tasers are running around at, but the point burden is absolutely asinine. Holy poo poo that's nine loving points. 31 points if you want the most amount of mines and the specials you mark to take additional damage, along with drill skills just to get up to that ability. I don't think that point burden is that bad, especially with the drill skills as an addition. I just grabbed all of the most important QOL skills like Transporter and Sprinter and I still have 49 points available. That's enough to get all of the shotgun skills that are good, the ICTV, double stuffed ammo bags, Fully Loaded aced, and basic Shockproof, along with dropping one point into Under Dog because I had to spend a point in Enforcer. The point burden is only asinine because you're all "well if I'm bringing tripmines they might as well be as awesome as possible!!!" No. That's wrong. If you're using them for shape charges you don't get the spotter perks. If you're using the spotter perks, you never want them to explode. If you're using them as actual mines you only get six which means you're only going to kill the six cops who walk into them. And they're gone after that. It's just better to not bring them at all and if you do bring them spec your skill tree in a way where you're using them for the purpose you want them as. You're also forgetting about the DRILL SKILLS, which is important on how many maps? All of them.
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Mar 8, 2016 19:47
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Afraid of Audio posted:if you made it so trip mines got put in the grenade slot theyd be infinitely more usable That would be great! I could bring feedback ECMs AND tripmines! Skunkrocker posted:You're also forgetting about the DRILL SKILLS, which is important on how many maps? All of them. Those are low enough in the tree that most of my masterforcer builds manage to snag them. It's like saying Ghost isn't poo poo because of Fast Hands and Sprinter. Dr Cheeto fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Mar 8, 2016 |
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Mar 8, 2016 19:47
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Dr Cheeto posted:That would be great! I could bring feedback ECMs AND tripmines! the comedy options are limitless
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Mar 8, 2016 19:48
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Afraid of Audio posted:if you made it so trip mines got put in the grenade slot theyd be infinitely more usable That might work, Jack of All Trades would end up being bring sentries along with any other equipment item, suddenly Sentry Builds don't suck because you bring your own Ammo Bags, heists with safes are less tedious, everyone wins. You lose Molotovs and Grenades and poo poo, but that's the balance.
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Mar 8, 2016 19:53
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Dr Cheeto posted:Guys check out my Ghostnician build Listen Cheeto, my Ghostnician can solo stealth H&T DW don't talk poo poo. 
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Mar 8, 2016 19:56
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YET ANOTHER FAG posted:Listen Cheeto, my Ghostnician can solo stealth H&T DW don't talk poo poo. Cool, what do you do for perks? I'm a fan of hitman and the flack jacket.
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Mar 8, 2016 19:58
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Skunkrocker posted:Holy poo poo that's Don't half-rear end poo poo. Contrast that to Spotter, which is much easier to obtain, infinitely usable, and you get other useful skills along the way. The trip mines have a range/LoS bonus, sure, but they can also get destroyed, so that seems like a wash to me. They don't stack up well at all.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:04
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Dr Cheeto posted:Cool, what do you do for perks? I'm a fan of hitman and the flack jacket. Solo stealth... Burglar & 2 piece, silenced Baby Deagle & a saw, drill upgrades & ECMs. On a sort of more serious note the trouble with Technician is not only that it's (almost) never(?) had any sort of rebalance to the best of my knowledge. It is a very defensive support playstyle that is not often very useful if you like to shoot cops unless you're going for something like City of Sin or Afraid of the Dark. Most of its better skills are actually in the lower tier also, making it relatively cheap to get the most out of the tree. Maybe if turrets got a rebalance that would make them more appealing? For instance shield detecting lasers for the turret that prevents them from eating an entire round in seconds? e: counterpoint, Joker still costs less than sentry guns & doesn't swallow whole ammo pickups, discussion over.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:33
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Tulip posted:Sharpshooter screws up your loco etc., making it worse than useless imho. I seem to recall there were a couple of shotguns that actually benefited from more accuracy, though now we just have both +Acc and -Acc boosts to play with. Outside of shotguns it was a nice boost to akimbos, normal pistols, and certainly didn't hurt to have in situations where you were single-firing a rifle. Post-rebalance, it would've made some sense to give Tech a skill that could conditionally return some of the accuracy most rifles lost in the process, but instead we get 4 whole points of accuracy because I honestly think they divided the old 20% boost by 5 and called it a day. As for Tech talk, I dig the trip mines in the grenade slot idea at first blush, but I question how that would resolve with the grenade case. I still think the big problem with mines is that they have three entirely separate functions with three completely different methods of use. C4 is the most useful, and needs to be balanced with a low supply so you can't just blow open every single obstacle. Trip mines on the other hand are inherently disposable and really need a larger supply than 6 for an entire heist, especially for how long jobs have gotten post-release and how much more aggressive cop spawns have become. Sensor mines can overlap with trip mines in terms of optimal placement, but not necessarily. Sensor mines are also uniquely viable in stealth. More than 6 would probably be overkill. Frankly, just for starters, I'd split sensor nodes off completely from mines and make them a secondary deployable for Ghost. They end up a perfect fit there thanks to their usage for stealth while also giving the Ghost a proper offensive deployable option. I've also said before that there's no compelling reason to make all of the trip mine stuff so granular. Remove Demolition Man completely (and no, Aced doesn't apply to placing C4) and just make the +1 mine and extra placement speed the default, sensor mine stuff is now cut out and moved to Ghost, that leaves just the AoE upgrades and Shaped Charges. I'd go ahead and radically change the AoE boosts as well to avoid having a dull 30/70% bigger booms skill nobody would buy. Maybe fundamentally tweak trip mine damage and armor piercing values so you can make a choice between cheap mines that can only kill squads of normal cops or invest slightly more for mines that can knock out specials more reliably. Heck, you could fold the spotter idea back in by making an "armor break" skill that makes anything still alive after a mine explosion (ie, mostly Bulldozers) take 15% extra damage. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Mar 8, 2016 |
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Mar 8, 2016 20:35
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