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MattD1zzl3 posted:I could tell they were bullshit lies at the time, why couldnt she? I was in massive anti-war protests, why wasnt she? Its not a case of "hindsight is 20-20", its "This woman clearly cant be trusted with important decisions". I couldn't, and neither could most of the country.
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Mar 8, 2016 19:50
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Condiv posted:yeah seriously. there are democrats in this thread that bought into the iraq war? I didn't; but there was, uh you know, virtually the rest of the country that did. I am glad we're getting to have a vintage 2008 debate about the loving Iraq War.
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Mar 8, 2016 19:50
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Now you're being hyperbolic. Your case so far consists of "this is hindsight speaking" without anything to back it up. There were 23 votes against the Iraq resolution in the Senate- saying the whole country fell for W's bullshit and that criticism for the war is all based on hindsight is extreme historical revisionism. 23% of the Senate disagreed with the war resolution, so you saying that "virtually everyone" supported the war is bullshit.
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Mar 8, 2016 19:50
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I have trouble buying a media narrative that Clinton's vote on the war was a huge gaffe. Not because it was good, but because the media was stone cold 100% the biggest force pushing for war at the time and desperately wants to hide it. As someone who was against the war and suffered as a result, I'm not about to let them rope a dope this one away. A lot of people would've lost their seat had they fought the war and that's largely because of the role the media played on shamelessly selling it.
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Mar 8, 2016 19:50
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I personally look forward to Hillary moving to the right during the general. Everyone always says that the candidates always move "towards the center"(which in reality means just towards the opposite side's positions). Hillary is barely holding on to any semblance of being progressive after deciding that real progressive policies are impossible, so any move rightward is going to put her firmly back in her old familiar, right of center positions, whee.
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Mar 8, 2016 19:52
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Unzip and Attack posted:Your case so far consists of "this is hindsight speaking" without anything to back it up. There were 23 votes against the Iraq resolution in the Senate- saying the whole country fell for W's bullshit and that criticism for the war is all based on hindsight is extreme historical revisionism. Uh, you're also trying to make the case that Hillary is personally and individually responsible for the deaths of "million" so glass houses mate on your historical rivisionism. Have you guys forgotten how popular the Iraq Invasion was at the outset? More to the point, all 23 of those voters weren't because they "didn't buy W's bullshit," but context is hard I gues.
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Mar 8, 2016 19:53
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I'm not arguing the media narrative, I'm answering the specific question of "what criticisms of her time in the Senate do you have that would make you think she'd be a bad POTUS". Buying into the intel for Iraq, whether through ignorance or political calculus, casts her judgment into serious question.
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Mar 8, 2016 19:53
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:This is almost entirely hindsight bullshit thinking. Curveball BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Have you guys forgotten how popular the Iraq Invasion was at the outset? You meant the enormous antiwar demonstrations that got ignored in favor of yellow journalism? Remember the Maine.
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Mar 8, 2016 19:54
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Khisanth Magus posted:I personally look forward to Hillary moving to the right during the general. Everyone always says that the candidates always move "towards the center"(which in reality means just towards the opposite side's positions). Hillary is barely holding on to any semblance of being progressive after deciding that real progressive policies are impossible, so any move rightward is going to put her firmly back in her old familiar, right of center positions, whee. If by some monstrous chain of events it's Hillary vs. Cruz, she'll be advocating for minor war crimes and we'll still vote for her because at least it's the better option.
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Mar 8, 2016 19:55
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Random Side-Bar: If you haven't been checking out Samantha Bee's new show, you're missing out. They snuck her show out there with very little promotion, but it is significantly better than the Nightly show and on par with the best of the Daily Show. Here are two of the best segments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSMXwzH-moc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whnvOdHkFNI
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Mar 8, 2016 19:56
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Yah, plus Valerie Plame and her husband. We are all goldfish apparently.
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Mar 8, 2016 19:56
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Uh, you're also trying to make the case that Hillary is personally and individually responsible for the deaths of "million" so glass houses mate on your historical rivisionism. So is spelling I suppose but yes, as one of the 100 people who got to decide whether or not the Iraq invasion would occur, she definitely shares a large portion of the blame for it. I guess representative government is too complex a concept for you to handle? And yes, the most reliable studies conducted on the death toll since '03 suggest that it's very likely over a million. Sorry if that dampens your spirits for Clinton '16 but maybe if you just tell yourself it was an honest mistake enough times, you'll eventually believe that load of poo poo. Regime change should be the very last resort for a power like the US and if you think the administration's case at the time was solid enough to back a land invasion, your judgment as CiC is dubious at best. Unzip and Attack fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Mar 8, 2016 |
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Mar 8, 2016 19:57
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Unzip and Attack posted:I'm not arguing the media narrative, I'm answering the specific question of "what criticisms of her time in the Senate do you have that would make you think she'd be a bad POTUS". Buying into the intel for Iraq, whether through ignorance or political calculus, casts her judgment into serious question. And I guess President Obama disagreed? But again, if that's your litmus test I guess that's fine. I just happen to think you're wrong. That kind of helps prove my point, the information being given to senators was really bad but would be hard for them to know that (as evidenced.) Unzip and Attack posted:So is spelling I suppose but yes, as one of the 100 people who got to decide whether or not the Iraq invasion would occur, she definitely shares a large portion of the blame for it. I guess representative government is too complex a concept for you to handle? Cute. Unzip and Attack posted:And yes, the most reliable studies conducted on the death toll since '03 suggest that it's very likely over a million. Sorry if that dampens your spirits for Clinton '16 but maybe if you just tell yourself it was an honest mistake enough times, you'll eventually believe that load of poo poo. Alright. Whatever you say. Let me know when you find a candidate that is and has always been perfect on every issue to support, and has never made a wrong vote that has hurt millions of people in one way or another. I'll be waiting. BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Mar 8, 2016 |
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Mar 8, 2016 19:57
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:This is almost entirely hindsight bullshit thinking. No it's not, only loving imbeciles or people who thought it was politically expedient to support lovely nationalism bought into the justification of the Iraq War.
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Mar 8, 2016 19:58
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Personally, I think it's going to be a terrible Hillary loss: http://www.270towin.com/maps/59Xog
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Mar 8, 2016 19:59
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TildeATH posted:No it's not, only loving imbeciles or people who thought it was politically expedient to support lovely nationalism bought into the justification of the Iraq War. So, most Americans.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:00
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I didn't; but there was, uh you know, virtually the rest of the country that did. It's good that Hillary is not being allowed to forget supporting the stupidest American foreign policy decision in her lifetime.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:00
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A Winner is Jew posted:Name one loving republican running for the presidency that won't tongue netanyahu's taint on demand. Or won't be ordering our own troops to commit the same exact same human rights abuses or even outright war crimes. Or one that won't feed Snowden to loving Guantanamo and forget the key. Democratic defense strategies: 1) Divert attention to how bad the GOP is in comparison. 2) Ignore criticism and divert attention to other Democratic platform talking points.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:01
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:
I started this by saying that I'm answering a specific question with a specific response. You can't even handle one criticism without melting down and demanding a "perfect candidate" be named in Hillary's place. The absolute thinnest of skins.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:02
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Gonzo McFee posted:It's good that Hillary is not being allowed to forget supporting the stupidest American foreign policy decision in her lifetime. Oh now you're just being silly. In her lifetime we invaded Korea, Vietnam, hosed Latin America for Generations, 90% of Isreal and the Middle East....
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Mar 8, 2016 20:02
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:So, most Americans. Yeah, how loving sad is that. Support for the Iraq War should be a litmus test for the right to run for office or vote or get a driver's license.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:02
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:So, most Americans. This is your bar for high office? Wow. I mean, most Americans can't name the 3 branches of government so how dare us demand the same of a Commander in Chief? Ivory Tower Liberals indeed!
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Mar 8, 2016 20:04
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Unzip and Attack posted:This right here is "SA_Clinton_Supporters.txt". I started this by saying that I'm answering a specific question with a specific response. You can't even handle one criticism without melting down and demanding a "perfect candidate" be named in Hillary's place. The absolute thinnest of skins. And this is you willfully taking out of context that remark. I said literally a post before that if you want to use that as your litmus test, that's fine. It's, in my opinion, stupid. Also you literally called her a murderer so, uh I think that's not exactly a "light criticism." Could be wrong! TildeATH posted:Yeah, how loving sad is that. Does support for the Iraq War include continuing to fund it?
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Mar 8, 2016 20:04
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Gonzo McFee posted:It's good that Hillary is not being allowed to forget supporting the stupidest American foreign policy decision in her lifetime. She shouldn't. But saying "she should have known better than almost every intelligence agency in the US, along with collaborating evidence from intelligence agencies from out allies" just because we have the hindsight now that it was all bullshit is what I'm at least saying is dumb.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:04
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I was 15 when we authorized the Iraq Invasion aka Operation Iraqi Freedom, and even I knew that the Intel was bullshit and wasn't provided by the organizations doing the serious intel gathering at the time. It was completely apparent that the whole thing was a political opportunity to take advantage of growing nationalism Most of our senior class walked out of class in protest of the invasion and, I have to say we were all proven 100% correct on our grievances with the entire situation. So why would we apologize for the leaders who authorized that poo poo show?
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Mar 8, 2016 20:06
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Also you literally called her a murderer so, uh I think that's not exactly a "light criticism." Could be wrong! Quote where I called Hillary Clinton a murderer.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:06
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I'm beginning to wonder how many posters were alive and politically conscious back then. Most every senator back then was absolutely representing the will of the people and probably would've been ousted had they voted against it.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:07
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Eschers Basement posted:Personally, I think it's going to be a terrible Hillary loss: http://www.270towin.com/maps/59Xog http://www.270towin.com/maps/MmDvj Guys I hosed up the country.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:07
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Unzip and Attack posted:Quote where I called Hillary Clinton a murderer. "responsible for the death of over a million people"
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Mar 8, 2016 20:08
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Epic High Five posted:I'm beginning to wonder how many posters were alive and politically conscious back then. Most every senator back then was absolutely representing the will of the people and probably would've been ousted had they voted against it. And they all had such well defined ideas about foreign policy too!
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Mar 8, 2016 20:09
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Epic High Five posted:I'm beginning to wonder how many posters were alive and politically conscious back then. Most every senator back then was absolutely representing the will of the people and probably would've been ousted had they voted against it. I have to wonder why you keep falling back on character attacks when someone has an issue with actual policy positions of your candidate of choice. If Hilary didn't want to get nailed for voting for the war she should have had the prescience I apparently had to realize it was a huge mistake.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:09
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BROCK LESBIAN posted:http://www.270towin.com/maps/MmDvj Are you Dick Morris?
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Mar 8, 2016 20:09
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Epic High Five posted:I'm beginning to wonder how many posters were alive and politically conscious back then. Most every senator back then was absolutely representing the will of the people and probably would've been ousted had they voted against it. I served there in '03-'04. Also, doing what the polls say is not the job of a Senator. If that were so we'd just conduct foreign policy via referendum. BI NOW GAY LATER posted:"responsible for the death of over a million people" I said she bears some responsibility as an active leader of the State. Yeah same as a murder. Get hosed.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:10
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Amergin posted:Democratic defense strategies: 1) Thanks to FPTP we're often left with the lesser of two evils. Maybe if republicans didn't cut funding for education so loving much idiots would actually know that rather basic civics fact. 2)
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Mar 8, 2016 20:10
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Epic High Five posted:I'm beginning to wonder how many posters were alive and politically conscious back then. Most every senator back then was absolutely representing the will of the people and probably would've been ousted had they voted against it. There were many very large street protests of the Iraq War and I don't recall seeing any babies, fetuses or twinkles in their parents' eyes carrying signs and yelling about what kind of a stupid piece of poo poo decision it was. I don't think it would be quite as horrible if the horrible imbeciles that voted for it and supported it didn't try so hard to justify their actions rather than apologize for their stupidity/craven jingoism.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:11
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Talmonis posted:Here's your problem. I fail to see the issue. We have a social safety net to assist individuals with relocation costs: its called national service.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:12
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why is it so acceptable to authorize military invasion on shakey intel? were you guys that scared by 9/11
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Mar 8, 2016 20:12
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^ Remember the MaineBI NOW GAY LATER posted:In her lifetime we invaded Korea, Vietnam, hosed Latin America for Generations, 90% of Isreal and the Middle East.... That was during the Cold War when we going toe to toe with the Soviets - Desert Storm established a precedent that countries only have their sovereignty violated by force if the international community can come to some agreement about such action - the invasion of Iraq was a US declaration that 'might makes right' - setting the stage for Putin in South Ossetia and Ukraine. Anyone who supported the invasion is responsible for this.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:13
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TildeATH posted:There were many very large street protests of the Iraq War and I don't recall seeing any babies, fetuses or twinkles in their parents' eyes carrying signs and yelling about what kind of a stupid piece of poo poo decision it was. How many preceded this vote?
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Mar 8, 2016 20:13
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TildeATH posted:There were many very large street protests of the Iraq War and I don't recall seeing any babies, fetuses or twinkles in their parents' eyes carrying signs and yelling about what kind of a stupid piece of poo poo decision it was. There was what... something like 10 million people across the US protesting? Uhh, sorry to burst your bubble but while that 10 million seems like a lot that's not even 4% of the country. So yeah, 4% of the country were right about the war.
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Mar 8, 2016 20:13
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