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Evil Mastermind posted:The problem was the sheer volume and lack of quality control. Ah, that makes more sense, I was under the impression that it was more "here is a spy game that is roughly comparable with D&D" sort of stuff, not like a million fan-made adventures or whatever. I assume the art quality was just godawful for most of it with most people being limited to pulling from their circle of acquaintances?
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Mar 11, 2016 04:51
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The Malthusian posted:Has anyone seen Privateer Press's low-energy Widower's Wood campaign? They did it with modest pledging tiers and no add-ons to avoid the fulfillment issues that tend to plague miniatures-driven projects (Conan, Bones, anything Mantic)--which is not a bad plan, but the stretch goals are set at 25000 increments and were lackluster to start. It's been funny seeing the pledges per day asymptotically reach zero. They've had the same goals unmet for about a week now, and it's pretty clear that there's no chance they make the $100000+ worth of goals they revealed. The comments section is starting to eat itself, with accusations of people who aren't backing being lazy. I've been vaguely following it as a HordeMachine player but having never played Undercity and being underwhelmed by KS exclusives, there's just nothing inspiring me to drop that kind of money on a game I'll never play. If I someday get Undercity, I'll pick it up down the line maybe.
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Mar 11, 2016 05:02
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The Malthusian posted:Has anyone seen Privateer Press's low-energy Widower's Wood campaign? I for one am glad that "low-energy" is a phrase that's now made its way into the public consciousness. bongwizzard posted:Ah, that makes more sense, I was under the impression that it was more "here is a spy game that is roughly comparable with D&D" sort of stuff, not like a million fan-made adventures or whatever. I assume the art quality was just godawful for most of it with most people being limited to pulling from their circle of acquaintances? There was a ton of that stuff too - shoving d20 into every goddamned genre, up to and including "Neo-Confederates riding sentient dinosaurs in outer space" and "here's a sourcebook of d20 stats for Kazakhstan"
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Mar 11, 2016 05:07
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bongwizzard posted:Ah, that makes more sense, I was under the impression that it was more "here is a spy game that is roughly comparable with D&D" sort of stuff, not like a million fan-made adventures or whatever. I assume the art quality was just godawful for most of it with most people being limited to pulling from their circle of acquaintances? There were a few notable standout successes that came about due to the d20 explosion, like Spycraft and Mutants & Masterminds, but they were in a distinct minority compared to Bob's Book of Prestige Classes Vol. XVIII and One Billion Badly Designed Magic Items. It wasn't even really adventures that you saw either, though there were some...I recall John Wick (in)famously talked a lot of poo poo about 3E D&D before talking up his own 3rd party adventure called, and I'm not making this up, What's That Smell?...it was mainly crunch books and campaign settings, which themselves contained more crunch. And then there were the attempted cash-in d20 conversions so you had stuff like Traveller d20 and Deadlands d20 and BESM d20, pretty much all of which sucked. The quality of all this stuff in general leaned heavily towards the lovely side of things but there was no realistic way to curate it, no way for game stores to know what was worth stocking and what wasn't and for a while anything d20 stood a decent chance of flying off the shelves. Then the bubble popped and game stores wound up with shelves full of shovelware that they couldn't move even if they did discount it, which few of them did.
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Mar 11, 2016 05:13
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gradenko_2000 posted:There was a ton of that stuff too - shoving d20 into every goddamned genre, up to and including "Neo-Confederates riding sentient dinosaurs in outer space" and "here's a sourcebook of d20 stats for Kazakhstan" Ok now this all sounds awesome. Kai Tave posted:. Then the bubble popped and game stores wound up with shelves full of shovelware that they couldn't move even if they did discount it, which few of them did. So there is a chance I will one day walk into a used book store and stumble into a lifetime supply of disposable bathroom reading? I could get into that. bongwizzard fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Mar 11, 2016 |
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Mar 11, 2016 05:13
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Kai Tave posted:And then there were the attempted cash-in d20 conversions so you had stuff like Traveller d20 and Deadlands d20 and BESM d20, pretty much all of which sucked. Let's not forget Call of Cthulhu d20 and Rifts d20.
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Mar 11, 2016 05:19
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gradenko_2000 posted:Let's not forget Call of Cthulhu d20 and Rifts d20. Maybe I'm missing the joke, but Kevin Sembieda was so notoriously paranoid about the idea of a d20 Rifts conversion letting WotC stage a hostile takeover of Palladium and burn every Rifts book to replace them with d20ized copies that he adamantly refused to have anything to do with d20/OGL stuff whatsoever.
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Mar 11, 2016 05:28
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bongwizzard posted:Ok now this all sounds awesome. I'd guess that any game store that still has their D20 stuff now is trying to get too much for it. Back in 2005-06 I picked up a whole box full of old White Wolf books (with some D20 mixed in) for $10. The store had about 25 more boxes in that sale... most of which was D20 crap.
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Mar 11, 2016 05:41
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Never underestimate how determined game stores are to sell items at full MSRP no matter how long they've been taking up shelf space. Assuming they're still in business post-bubble, because a lot of them aren't anymore.
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Mar 11, 2016 05:49
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Evil Mastermind posted:
Hah, I just read this and discovered: quote:The most notable exception is probably the Book of Erotic Fantasy, which Wizards blocked from using the d20 logo, so it used the OGL instead. I really want to track a copy down to slip in among the magazines that currently litter the bathroom, just to see how long it takes my gf to notice it. She like to read in the tub and eventually she runs out of her stuff and will delve into my pile of fishing catalogs where it will be hidden.
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Mar 11, 2016 05:49
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Kai Tave posted:Never underestimate how determined game stores are to sell items at full MSRP no matter how long they've been taking up shelf space. Assuming they're still in business post-bubble, because a lot of them aren't anymore. Yeah one of the FLGS near me has a wall that's about 20 feet long, and the bottom 3 shelves are ooooooold RPG books, still with the price tags from the last game shop they were in. They need to fire sale them, and put anything else there.
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Mar 11, 2016 05:59
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A lot of game store owners don't have a lot of business sense. They think if they sell it for less, they're losing money, when the fact is they've already lost the money, since no one's ever going to go in and buy them, and they're continuing to lose money because they could put product in its place that would sell.
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Mar 11, 2016 07:34
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One of the stores around here almost gets it. They have their old 3.X books on sale, but not nearly enough to actually make them move.
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Mar 11, 2016 07:49
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Kai Tave posted:Actually I'm gonna disagre with you and say the 3.X stuff released near the end of its life was actually on the whole better than the stuff that had come before it. I'd say it was more experimental and interesting, but the improvements are only modest. Tome of Battle is probably the high point, but everything else is a mixed bag. Honestly, most of the late 3.5 line is just forgettable. I look at a list of releases in '07 or '08 and I don't think there's much that's well remembered outside of the Complete books and Monster Manual V. Kai Tave posted:Maybe I'm missing the joke, but Kevin Sembieda was so notoriously paranoid about the idea of a d20 Rifts conversion letting WotC stage a hostile takeover of Palladium and burn every Rifts book to replace them with d20ized copies that he adamantly refused to have anything to do with d20/OGL stuff whatsoever. IIRC, he believed that if he did a d20 conversion he would basically be signing off the rights to his IP.
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Mar 11, 2016 09:32
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I have a Rifts d20 document kicking around in my PDF folder, but it's probably some completely non-official thing if Siembieda's reaction was like that. My bad!
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Mar 11, 2016 09:39
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gradenko_2000 posted:I have a Rifts d20 document kicking around in my PDF folder, but it's probably some completely non-official thing if Siembieda's reaction was like that. My bad! There was at least one fan attempt that I know of, and that got a C&D from SIembieda. Pretty much anything a fan could do with Rifts got them a C&D if it attracted Siembieda's attention.
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Mar 11, 2016 09:47
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I'd say it was more experimental and interesting, but the improvements are only modest. Tome of Battle is probably the high point, but everything else is a mixed bag. Honestly, most of the late 3.5 line is just forgettable. I look at a list of releases in '07 or '08 and I don't think there's much that's well remembered outside of the Complete books and Monster Manual V. I don't think any part of 3.X was good exactly except for Eberron in a non-system sense, simply that qualifying that 3.X material near the end of its run was garbage implies that stuff released at the beginning was somehow better which isn't really the case. And remember, this was back when WotC was riding high too, the heady days of Jonathan Tweet and Monte Cook and poo poo so they didn't even have the excuse of "well the D&D department resides in a rundown broom closet in the office basement with a moth fluttering around a single bare lightbulb, only lit on alternating days of the week as a cost-saving measure."
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Mar 11, 2016 09:49
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Apparently 7th Sea breaking a million dollars, in particular, was enough to make my friend want it as a birthday present. Not the ridiculous PDF offering, or the nostalgia-driven lackluster system. He never even seemed to like 7th Sea much before. But, man, what a big number! The truest mark of quality. I guess there will be plenty of other people out in the world to potentially play with. 
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Mar 11, 2016 12:12
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I still need to cancel my Winnower's Wood pledge. Everything about this KS has been disappointing on some level, from "these WMH figures are not WMH figures" to the exclusives crippling the value of the retail release. I like the idea of the game, but it's like they're actively fighting success and I have a dozen better ways to spend $150. bongwizzard posted:Ok now this all sounds awesome. I think that's a lot off the reason people are still trying to fix 3.pf instead of just moving on. They're still searching for a Rosetta stone to unlock all this gaming material, but they might as well be looking for a Philosopher's Stone to transmute turds to gold.
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Mar 11, 2016 12:36
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moths posted:I think that's a lot off the reason people are still trying to fix 3.pf instead of just moving on. They're still searching for a Rosetta stone to unlock all this gaming material, but they might as well be looking for a Philosopher's Stone to transmute turds to gold. I was under the impression the answer was always just "OK, everyone pick tier 3/4 classes" and you could have a reasonably fun time. You wind up with a more gonzo, sort of proto-4e which isn't really a bad thing and it's compatible with all the other random 3.PF stuff that you can just dump into the game.
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Mar 11, 2016 13:41
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Sionak posted:I'd guess that any game store that still has their D20 stuff now is trying to get too much for it. Back in 2005-06 I picked up a whole box full of old White Wolf books (with some D20 mixed in) for $10. The store had about 25 more boxes in that sale... most of which was D20 crap. Kai Tave posted:Never underestimate how determined game stores are to sell items at full MSRP no matter how long they've been taking up shelf space. Assuming they're still in business post-bubble, because a lot of them aren't anymore. There's game stores near me that have literal shelves full of d20 books they're still selling at MSRP, which means they're never going to get rid of them.
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Mar 11, 2016 14:58
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bewilderment posted:I was under the impression the answer was always just "OK, everyone pick tier 3/4 classes" and you could have a reasonably fun time. I find that players who know which classes correspond to which tiers are generally system savvy enough to already know the 3.pf shortcomings and how to avoid them.
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Mar 11, 2016 15:15
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bewilderment posted:I was under the impression the answer was always just "OK, everyone pick tier 3/4 classes" and you could have a reasonably fun time. You wind up with a more gonzo, sort of proto-4e which isn't really a bad thing and it's compatible with all the other random 3.PF stuff that you can just dump into the game. The immediate problem is that to do so you often have to navigate a minefield of people who insist that the game is fine and balanced as written and they just coincidentally happen to want to play a tier 1 class, GMs who ban or nerf classes at random, usually martial classes that they consider "broken" or "overpowered", newbies/"I ROLE play not ROLL play" people who don't understand why you're telling them it's probably not a good idea for them to play Samurai even though they think Samurais are really cool, etc.
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Mar 11, 2016 15:17
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Kai Tave posted:And remember, this was back when WotC was riding high too, the heady days of Jonathan Tweet and Monte Cook and poo poo so they didn't even have the excuse of "well the D&D department resides in a rundown broom closet in the office basement with a moth fluttering around a single bare lightbulb, only lit on alternating days of the week as a cost-saving measure." Well, Cook (and Willams) left fairly early on, but yes. But if the history of RPGs shows us much of anything, it's that all the corporate support and money in the world won't turn bad game design good.
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Mar 11, 2016 17:17
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The Ghostbusters KS put out a new update today... gently caress yooooooou 
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Mar 11, 2016 17:23
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JackMann posted:A lot of game store owners don't have a lot of business sense. They think if they sell it for less, they're losing money, when the fact is they've already lost the money, since no one's ever going to go in and buy them, and they're continuing to lose money because they could put product in its place that would sell. Today, the owner of The Citadel in Groton CT still has shelves taken up by RPGs, computers and board games that were old when I first started going to the place, three locations ago, in 1988. Last time I was there, he still had a serial port flight yoke on the shelf.
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Mar 11, 2016 17:29
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bongwizzard posted:Hah, I just read this and discovered: The hilarious thing about the OGL sex book was that it wasn't even written by the person claiming to have written it. It was just the old Usenet Guide to AD&D Netbook with some stats updated to reflect 2nd to 3rd edition. Literally word for word in everything except the stats. "Roll a d100 to see which STD you caught from that Orc prostitute." moths posted:I still need to cancel my Winnower's Wood pledge. Everything about this KS has been disappointing on some level, from "these WMH figures are not WMH figures" to the exclusives crippling the value of the retail release. I like the idea of the game, but it's like they're actively fighting success and I have a dozen better ways to spend $150. It really is disappointing, for the $150 cost of the all in pledge you can wait for it in retail and use the extra savings to get all the kickstarter exclusives and have money left over. Macdeo Lurjtux fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Mar 11, 2016 |
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Mar 11, 2016 18:37
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Leperflesh posted:That isn't the case at all, though. I don't think a single one of the points he listed fits. I was poking fun because the core system uses 2d20 and the system (+art book and unlocks) is $58 USD as pdfs. That said, the game looks legit and fun to play and I didn't mean to insult it. E: Also, I can only hope that a Conan game will have 20 different polearms with sweet concept art. 
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Mar 11, 2016 20:49
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QuantumNinja posted:I was poking fun because the core system uses 2d20 and the system (+art book and unlocks) is $58 USD as pdfs. That said, the game looks legit and fun to play and I didn't mean to insult it. Ah, I see. No worries man. As an FYI to those who haven't read the quick start: the system has you roll at least 2d20 for tests (skill and combat), but per examples of play, most of the time you will be rolling more. You don't add the dice up; instead, you want successes, and each die is capable of generating one or two successes (or up to one Complication - think of it as a critical failure). Buying extra dice is fairly cheap, and the decisions about when to spend resources to get more dice make up a substantial part of ongoing play. Those resources are not particularly rare or hard to come by, so in any given scene or combat, the party is sure to use a fair number of them. One of the dynamics I anticipate from this system is the ability of a party to encourage a player whose character is struggling to be effective to use more of the group resources. You could also collectively decide that this scene is "about" one of the characters, and everyone else can work to funnel resources to them. Conversely, players can always just take a party resource, there's no requirement for consent, so a player who is being pushed into the background can just grab a couple tokens and suddenly be doing something powerful in the scene. It also puts the GM into a dynamic of using the resource tokens to control how much adversity the party is facing, rather than doing that by GM fiat. In that sense, instead of preparing an encounter in advance that is going to be really hard or really easy, the players themselves influence how much challenge they're going to face (by adding to or mitigating the size of the GM's Doom pool). The GM can still decide when they'll face a really nasty monster or something of course, but the players have systematically-supported feedback into how "epic" a given scene is going to be - going whole hog with their own abilities but in the process giving the GM implicit power to go whole hog with those of the antagonists - and the scenery itself - as well. Re: the pledge cost. The "+unlocks" part of that PDF pledge number you mentioned is a pretty good pile of material now. Six more sourcebooks have been unlocked, plus two of the four sets of floor tiles, plus a couple of maps, and some random extras. If you only care about the sourcebooks that's six 112 page PDFs and the core 368 page rulebook for $58 which is around $8.25 each. With nine days to go I think the next two book unlocks are very likely, as well. Sub-$10 each for rulebooks in PDF is quite reasonable, I think.
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Mar 11, 2016 23:21
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Ended up backing 7th Sea because pirates are cool and that's a fuckton of pirates for $40
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Mar 12, 2016 05:58
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^^^^ Came in to pretty much say this, but also: Isn't the point of having unspeakable, unknowable horrors to, well, not see them? As in minis and art, etc, etc. I mean, I know why these things exist, I just can't ever jive the lore with the commercial aspect. Also, minis in general, but that's a whole other thing.
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Mar 12, 2016 09:20
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SaviourX posted:Isn't the point of having unspeakable, unknowable horrors to, well, not see them? As in minis and art, etc, etc. Yes. Mythos stuff has been comically missing the point for 30 years.
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Mar 12, 2016 11:00
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SaviourX posted:^^^^ I assume a significant slice of the playing population either wants to be able to eventually become powerful enough to destroy Cthulhu directly, or have themselves destroyed by Chthulhu within the rules, both of which necessitate statblocks and minis.
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Mar 12, 2016 11:06
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gradenko_2000 posted:I assume a significant slice of the playing population either wants to be able to eventually become powerful enough to destroy Cthulhu directly, or have themselves destroyed by Chthulhu within the rules, both of which necessitate statblocks and minis. Also the minis were created for Cthulhu Wars, which takes the third line: you are Cthulhu.
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Mar 12, 2016 11:29
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I like the option of having a mini Cthulhu on my desk 
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Mar 12, 2016 11:37
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SaviourX posted:Isn't the point of having unspeakable, unknowable horrors to, well, not see them? As in minis and art, etc, etc. I mean, I know why these things exist, I just can't ever jive the lore with the commercial aspect. Also, minis in general, but that's a whole other thing. While Lovecraft is found of the adjective "indescribable", he sure then goes on to spend lots of  describing the very things so termed.H.P. Lovecraft posted:Walls, columns, and architraves of living fire blazed effulgently around the spot where I seemed to float in air; extending upward to an infinitely high vaulted dome of indescribable splendour. Blending with this display of palatial magnificence, or rather, supplanting it at times in kaleidoscopic rotation, were glimpses of wide plains and graceful valleys, high mountains and inviting grottoes; covered with every lovely attribute of scenery which my delighted eye could conceive of, yet formed wholly of some glowing, ethereal, plastic entity, which in consistency partook as much of spirit as of matter. As I gazed, I perceived that my own brain held the key to these enchanting metamorphoses; for each vista which appeared to me, was the one my changing mind most wished to behold. Amidst this elysian realm I dwelt not as a stranger, for each sight and sound was familiar to me; just as it had been for uncounted aeons of eternity before, and would be for like eternities to come. So getting hung up on words like that is a little pedantic. In any case, the ship for maintaining the purity of Lovecraft's intent has sailed a long time ago, and it was always a selective interpretation anyway (mostly defined by Sandy Petersen & Co., in fact). A lot of people may get hung up on trying to maintain the cosmic horror aspects, but very few people are going to get hung up trying to maintain the racist or eugenic notions in his writing. For me, I don't think Lovecraft's monsters are now of the same mindset I might put Dracula or Frankenstein's monster, and so I don't mind seeing kitschy stuff done with them. If you want to be genuinely frightening or portray cosmic horror, you were always best off coming up with something new anyway. As for Lovecraft's stuff, no harm in having fun with it in ways he didn't intend, since his intentions weren't often particularly noble in the first place.
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Mar 12, 2016 12:27
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I'm a Godzilla man, myself, so I don't see why you wouldn't give combat stats to these things. One time he fought the idea of pollution because it turned into a thing he could punch. In other news, 7th Sea has added a $1.25 million stretch goal: A two-minute sizzle reel to help get a loving movie off the ground. I'd prefer a movie about John Wick, called "John Wick" and starring Keanu Reeves, but what do I know? I thought this franchise had been dead & buried for over a decade.
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Mar 12, 2016 15:28
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Lemon-Lime posted:Yes. Mythos stuff has been comically missing the point for 30 years. A lot longer, once Lovecraft's contemporary's started adding the Elder Gods that were ostensibly on our side that whole ship went tits up.
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Mar 12, 2016 15:41
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HitTheTargets posted:I'm a Godzilla man, myself, so I don't see why you wouldn't give combat stats to these things. One time he fought the idea of pollution because it turned into a thing he could punch. And this is where poo poo officially begins to go off the rails.
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Mar 12, 2016 15:57
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The_Doctor posted:The Ghostbusters KS put out a new update today... I have heard nothing of the first game beyond "it is in kickstarter". Must not have been selling well beyond the initial orders, or does Cryptozoic do the "kickstarter as our business" model?
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Mar 12, 2016 16:04
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