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alg posted:Ok. But that wasn't what he said. He said this was the first time one list was popular. It isn't. My imperial aces should be immune to any kind of damage, of course! Nah, TLT point efficiency is fine. Seems like FFG accidentally got themselves into a position where the only way to consistently get an ace in arc is turrets, and now they've printed a strong turret. Range 2-3 is a gigantic part of the board, and with no range bonus at 3 it's incredibly punishing to be caught at the end of the range band. Here's TLT vs. standard arc size:  Some serious approximation on math: let's say the arcs are a triangle and arcs are 80 degrees. Area of a standard 1-3 arc: ~443 cm Area of standard 2-3 arc: ~394 cm Area of turret 2-3 arc: ~1576 cm That means TLTs have roughly 3.5 times the target-able space on the board. Sucks that this is the advantage generics need to even have a shot on aces, but I don't know what else FFG could do to have nonaces be relevant. Hopefully we never see turrets make an appearance empire side, I can't think of anything less fun to deal with than TLTs and arc dodgey aces.
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Mar 12, 2016 03:49
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Double posting, take that, nerds.Kai Tave posted:Yeah this is basically where I'm at. It's fine that FFG wanted to make a turret secondary card that was decent, but I don't really view it as an unmitigated success to say "we've successfully shifted the meta to the new hotness of turret spam after the old meta of fat turrets." I think there is one good lesson in them, which is a benchmark for point efficiency. "I want to take X at 50 points, is that better than 2 TLT Ys?" Bs were apparently good for this before, but now it's even easier to use as a benchmark since you've got a turreted arc on the thing.
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Mar 12, 2016 03:51
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They could just print some upgrades so Rebel aces like Wedge could compete, like they did in the films. Until all three factions have equal access to multi action arc dodging aces with viable attack and agility turrets are just one tool to keep the playing field even. Even at the height of the Phantom people pretended it somehow took more ability to play a list that got to do 3 maneuvers after every enemy ship had already moved and they could just react to whatever their opponent did. Edit: did your math include the donut hole? Ah yeah. Just the graphic is off alg fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Mar 12, 2016 |
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Mar 12, 2016 03:52
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thespaceinvader posted:Ok. Let me know how that goes in Store Champs season. I've not played against it, I don't know for sure how it would look, but I know z95s die easy. A local player runs Guri+SJ+Predator+AT and 4 Zs with cluster missiles. It wrecks TLTs but gets murdered by aces; like super murdered.
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Mar 12, 2016 04:18
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alg posted:They could just print some upgrades so Rebel aces like Wedge could compete, like they did in the films. I think the Veterans sets will address this to some degree. I believe the generic TIE Defenders are now pretty decent with the new titles; not so sure about the bombers though. I'm really hoping for some good generic astromechs in the Rebel Veterans set, but it'll be difficult to make them good for the X-Wing without giving the TLT Y-Wing an unnecessary buff. That said, I don't think TLTs are overpowered, just, as many other posters said, they're quite boring to fly against. I'd say they're roughly the same bang for your buck as a B-Wing with Fire-Control System, albeit useful for different purposes. I take one of each in my four ship rebels list for the versatility.
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Mar 12, 2016 05:46
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The only thing an Astromech needs to be not good on TLT Y-wings is to be 2 points.
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Mar 12, 2016 05:47
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Strobe posted:The only thing an Astromech needs to be not good on TLT Y-wings is to be 2 points. Excellent point.
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Mar 12, 2016 05:48
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alg posted:Edit: did your math include the donut hole? Ah yeah. Just the graphic is off Yeah - math isn't completely accurate, I'm too lazy to do the math on a flat edged triangle, but the ratio should be close enough, ~3.5 times standard arc. Endman posted:I think the Veterans sets will address this to some degree. I believe the generic TIE Defenders are now pretty decent with the new titles; not so sure about the bombers though. Bombers are probably still trash, curse of the torpedo, and Zs are just better for missiles. TIE Defender generics (at least x7s) are complete monsters of jousting, better than TIE Fighters for the dice/hull you get by cost. Hopefully they're the new benchmark jousters are held to, and we see X/Khiraxz brought to their level. Brunas fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Mar 12, 2016 |
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Mar 12, 2016 06:20
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Defenders are p. cool options to think about. Delta Squadron Pilot (30) TIE/x7 (-2) Delta Squadron Pilot (30) TIE/x7 (-2) "Omega Leader" (21) Juke (2) Comm Relay (3) "Mauler Mithel" (17) Veteran Instincts (1) Total: 100 View in Yet Another Squad Builder
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Mar 12, 2016 07:29
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alg posted:They could just print some upgrades so Rebel aces like Wedge could compete, like they did in the films. K Wings don't got no donut hole.
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Mar 12, 2016 11:33
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alg posted:Ok. But that wasn't what he said. He said this was the first time one list was popular. It isn't. That's not what I said at all. I said this is the first time that one list has been this popular. During wave 6 you saw way more variety than you do now. YMMV based on your local meta, obviously, but that's my experience. Reynold posted:Elitist nerds getting all uppity about losing to "less skilled players" using TLTs rather than expertly flown high PS arc dodgers just makes me like the TLT even more. Get over that poo poo. Ita just as annoying to play against somebody who gets like 30 games a week in on vassal before going to his flgs with a beep boop optimum build as it is to face spam. Oh gently caress off. I don't really have problems with winning against TLTs, I just dislike how they've homogenized the meta.
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Mar 12, 2016 14:16
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Geisladisk posted:That's not what I said at all. I said this is the first time that one list has been this popular. During wave 6 you saw way more variety than you do now. Do you play xwing in bizarro world
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Mar 12, 2016 14:21
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Geisladisk posted:That's not what I said at all. I said this is the first time that one list has been this popular. During wave 6 you saw way more variety than you do now. Sorry brah, your current meta sounds like TLT hell but around August 2014, literally everyone was playing fat Han. I was a sad panda since I thought of it before it became popular. But nowadays I still clean up in store champs and regionals even though it's no longer a popular list. Maybe TLT will have that, with dedicated players of the archetype championing the list years after its expiration date. How large is your community btw? Small ones get inbred and lose the overall bigger picture much faster. How often do people in your community go to larger events? If there's no real incentive to innovate, then you do get stuck in a meta game hell. For that, I am sorry.
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Mar 12, 2016 14:32
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Fat Han was always popular lol It just became mandatory when Phantoms released
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Mar 12, 2016 14:35
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It was never that popular. Han shoots first only involved taking VI and sometimes gunner. That falcon was eaten hard by swarms and Biggs walks the dogs and ultimately 4BZ, which I contend is still more dangerous than 4TLT vs Han due to burst damage output. I'm not taking credit for inventing the incredibly upgraded Han since I never post online what the new secret technology is. I only talk about it with friends and we test and so far one particular friend has been ahead of the curve 100% wrt the new list 3-4 months down the line. It would be stupid to let that knowledge go freely. I only know that I started making what is known as Fat Han on a lark once the giant postcard promo was released since it would be funny to cover it up with upgrades.
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Mar 12, 2016 14:51
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alg posted:Fat Han was always popular lol My first SC was 32 people. 23 of them were running double Falcons.
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Mar 12, 2016 15:01
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Yeah as soon as Kessel Run was over people were running loaded Falcons
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Mar 12, 2016 15:02
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Tantive 4 and C3PO was released in 2014. But eh I'll stop arguing here since you seem to equate Fat Han with Ham shoots first, which was a terrible build.
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Mar 12, 2016 15:15
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One of the more recent store tournaments in my city's lists (Note, we have like 8 store tournmanets here because we have way too many stores and 231 players) First place was two TLT thugs, and IG88B. Second was Miranda TLT and a Fat Han. They were the only TLTs there.
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Mar 12, 2016 16:10
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bunnyofdoom posted:One of the more recent store tournaments in my city's lists Han/Miranda represent!
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Mar 12, 2016 17:45
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Panzeh posted:Han/Miranda represent! I've been messing around with a Han/Miranda list lately. I think it's what I'll be taking to Store Champs. --- Han(K) the Tank (100) Han Solo (55) - YT-1300 Push The Limit (3), Jan Ors (2), C-3PO (3), Millenium Falcon (1) Miranda Doni (45) - K-Wing Twin Laser Turret (6), Extra Munitions (2), Lando Calrissian (3), Proximity Mines (3), Advanced SLAM (2) --- Not sure if the Proximity Mines+Extra Munitions are worth the points, but I'm not sure what I'd replace them with and Slamming Away and then dropping a Prox Mine behind me seems sort of cheeky.
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Mar 12, 2016 18:28
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EnjoiThePureTrip posted:I've been messing around with a Han/Miranda list lately. I think it's what I'll be taking to Store Champs. My SC-winning Han and Miranda went like this: Han Solo (46) Predator (3) Gunner (5) Chewbacca (4) Engine Upgrade (4) Millennium Falcon (1) Miranda Doni (29) Twin Laser Turret (6) Tactician (2) Total: 100 A more aggressive Miranda is an interesting proposition but your Han is more vulnerable to stress attacks and nowhere near as good against high agi ships. It is, however considerably tankier. I suppose the idea is that Miranda can shore up your Fel problem by dropping a mine on him.
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Mar 12, 2016 18:35
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A guy at a tourney couple of weeks ago had a Dash/Miranda list and his Miranda at cluster mines. He would have Miranda run interference on swarms and crap out a string of mines in their flight path before slamming away to regen.
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Mar 12, 2016 18:36
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Chance II posted:A guy at a tourney couple of weeks ago had a Dash/Miranda list and his Miranda at cluster mines. He would have Miranda run interference on swarms and crap out a string of mines in their flight path before slamming away to regen. I'm not sure mines really do much to swarms- they only hit one ship(the one that activates it). Bombs do, though I think they come cheaper- less need for adv. slam.
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Mar 12, 2016 18:40
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X-wing beat out Warhams for making money gently caress yes
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Mar 12, 2016 18:55
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I said this when it was posted in the GW Death Thread but I don't understand how Attack Wing is selling enough to place in the top 5; I'd have expected Infinity to be in that slot.
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Mar 12, 2016 19:02
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I'm genuinely surprised STAW is back on that list, given the number of reports of FLGS's firesaling existing stock and dumping the line.
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Mar 12, 2016 19:03
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BattleMaster posted:I said this when it was posted in the GW Death Thread but I don't understand how Attack Wing is selling enough to place in the top 5; I'd have expected Infinity to be in that slot. As I understand it ICv2 basically makes poo poo up. It's not a comprehensive review of global or even US sales by any stretch of the imagination.
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Mar 12, 2016 19:07
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At a SC right now, 1-1. Flew terribly against a Crack Swarm, 19-100, and then blew the gently caress out of Brobots 100-0. I took one damage.
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Mar 12, 2016 20:20
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Didn't go to Fayetteville, oh well I think I've weighed in either here or elsewhere how I feel about specific cards in X-Wing, but it's always a careful line to tread in the thread because you inevitably get the insane "how long have you been playing this game" quote-counterargument-endquote; my thinking generally aligns with Geisladisk's regarding why TLTs are A Bad Thing for a game's health, but I also tend to agree with whomever proposed the "make TLT unique/limited" solution, because that essentially solves what I perceive to be the problem. As the rules exist today, I think that Twin Laser Turret, Omega Leader, and Crack Shot are all super-toxic to the long term health of the game, and I would not be surprised to see FFG eventually go the route of Netrunner and either start rotating stuff out of tournament legality as their game continues to expand, and/or come up with a restricted list to foster heterogeneous lists at all levels of competitive play. Sorta excited to get my hands on some of the Wave 8 stuff, maybe. I don't know.
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Mar 12, 2016 21:15
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gently caress TLTs Forever Shielding, Mark VI Modification, 5 squadron points Limited When defending, if the attacker hits with an secondary weapon that instructs them to cancel 1 or more of their own results during the attack, at the start of the Deal Damage step, reduce the damage dealt by 1.
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Mar 12, 2016 21:28
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Late to the TLT bitch fest but I wanted to chime in. I hate the TLT and think it should be a unique upgrade. That being said the real problem is that it allows for lists which make the game un-fun for lots of players. I get that some people (apparently guys like Alg) just like having a list that wins on math rather than on flying. That's cool. I know different people enjoy different things but when the thing you enjoy ruins the fun for a bunch of other people it's time to rethink your stance. Sure arc dodgers can be infuriating! No one is arguing that. However you can outfly them if you get good at flying. You can't outfly math and that's what people are upset about.
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Mar 12, 2016 21:29
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Otisburg posted:gently caress TLTs Forever Shielding, Mark VI nailed it Smegmalicious posted:Late to the TLT bitch fest but I wanted to chime in. I hate the TLT and think it should be a unique upgrade. That being said the real problem is that it allows for lists which make the game un-fun for lots of players. Part of this problem is also in how FFG decided to parcel out each faction's apparent identity. Sure, you can outfly high-PS aces, but it gets increasingly harder the closer you are to one another in skill, and one faction is dramatically, dramatically better at dodging arcs and getting a ton of discretionary movement and good action economy than the other two are. TLTs seem to have been less of a reaction to Fat Han and more a reaction to dodgey aces who cannot tokentank, or who can't equip Autothrusters; TLTs utterly incinerate them if you make a single mistake, and sometimes even if you don't. I actually don't mind the "get good" line of advice, either, but the problem here is that Scum's entire existence as a faction hinges upon the viability of TLTs. If TLTs are suddenly no longer an attractive option for whatever reason, or FFG mysteriously banned them/errata'd them out of the game, both of their premiere lists take a huge hit (Thug Lyfe is comprised solely of TLTs, and Autothrusters Brobots are so attractive because they beat massed TLTs very easily in addition to some other stuff) to how "competitively viable" they are, whatever that may mean for you. We have other answers for pancakes now; TLTs aren't the only thing keeping Fat Han in check anymore. The TLT thing is so precarious, to me, because if you did remove it from the competitive scene, that has a serious negative impact on two factions and does nothing but buff the side that is already, in my view, in the strongest place at the moment. So I don't think you should outright ban TLTs, or remove them from the game, but I do think the most elegant solution is to just make them a limited upgrade. 2-of per list maximum. Seems easy to implement and still allows for the use of supplementary TLT ships, instead of making the game into Math-Wing The Miniatures Game.
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Mar 12, 2016 21:53
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I don't think anyone seriously wants to ban the TLT outright. I think people want to stop 4 and 3 TLT spam lists. Limiting them makes a lot of sense and fixes most of the problems. Making them unique does that and doesn't require any new kinds of rules. That being said even completely removing them doesn't cripple Rebels. Rebels are, and have been, ahead of the other factions. As for Scum...honestly Scum is neat but they have done a poo poo job with them. That's the problem with Scum, not anything having to do with the TLT. Really what we are looking at here is an increasingly complex game with a very strong, very active, very smart competitive scene who will find optimal solutions against good but not great (current) designers and poor play testing. We are going to keep seeing issues like this.
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Mar 12, 2016 22:22
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You could totally remove TLTs from the game and still have a good game. X-Wing was a good game before TLTs.
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Mar 12, 2016 22:26
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I understand the hate for them, but before the last wave there were like 4 lists that saw top play with any regularity. Fat Han, Dash/Corran, Decimator/Ace, and Brobots. TLTs were needed, and I'm not convinced that enough has changed that those would become the dominant lists again if they disappeared. The game overall is much healthier now, and if TLT spam is the price I pay to play matches against lists without a large ship, I'm willing to suffer.
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Mar 12, 2016 22:28
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A good salvaged astromech or title for Y-Wings that made them actually good at bombing (while also pricing out 4TLT) would be nice.
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Mar 12, 2016 22:30
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Perhaps just a new upgrade card that adds agility against turrets?
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Mar 12, 2016 22:30
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Ringo Star Get posted:Perhaps just a new upgrade card that adds agility against turrets? So....Autothrusters?
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Mar 12, 2016 22:34
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Twin Autothrusters Mk. II
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