Finnish Politics Megathread II: Taru Sorbuksen Herrasta

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Finnish Politics Megathread II: Taru Sorbuksen Herrasta

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DanTheFryingPan: Jan 28, 2006

Geriatric Pirate posted:

I don't really care if they have to fill out forms to get government money. They're getting money for doing a job that doesn't make economic sense to do. Most of us don't have that luxury. Most of us can't just fill out some forms and then get government money to do what we want to do, we actually have to work jobs that provide things that people want at economically competitive prices and wages. If anything, the government should make the paperwork as difficult as possible to discourage farmers and maybe save us some money.

User + post combo.

# ? Mar 11, 2016 23:44

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# ? May 16, 2024 01:13

doverhog: May 31, 2013; Defender of democracy and human rights 🇺🇦

Instead of various complicated farming subsidies the state should instead buy out the farmers and establish Suomen Maanviljelys and pay a salary to the farm operators. Can't do that under EU of course, but hey another reason to worship at the cult of V�yrynen.

# ? Mar 12, 2016 01:24

HerraS: Apr 15, 2012; Looking professional when committing genocide is essential. This is mostly achieved by using a beret.

Olive drab colour ensures the genocider will remain hidden from his prey until it's too late for them to do anything.

brakeless posted:

How big a part of maataloustuet are those grants where the state doles out hundreds of thousands of � per year to big agricultural operators? Because that at least is nothing but politically enabled wealth transfer to the big players in a certain industry. Like, presumably you need a big production capacity to get the big bucks, which is nonsensical. There's any number of better uses for public money.

Valio gets the biggest lump of maataloustuet but people like Nalle Walhroos and Antti Herlin still get six-figure sums because obviously they need it to run a farm in the middle of nowhere

# ? Mar 12, 2016 20:16

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

Jerry Cotton posted:

No, most of them also drink loads of alcohol, abuse their families, and bad-mouth city folk.

That's not because they're farmers though, they are just Finns (city Finns drink loads of alcohol, abuse their families and badmouth lande-folk)

# ? Mar 13, 2016 09:00

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

brakeless posted:

How big a part of maataloustuet are those grants where the state doles out hundreds of thousands of � per year to big agricultural operators? Because that at least is nothing but politically enabled wealth transfer to the big players in a certain industry. Like, presumably you need a big production capacity to get the big bucks, which is nonsensical. There's any number of better uses for public money.

I feel like a lot of Finns still think their blue-white flag-marked food comes from a good old boy farmer waking up at 4 AM and lovingly being part of the process from beginning to until it goes to a store. It's honestly kind of adorable.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 09:10

Fish of hemp: Apr 1, 2011; A friendly little mouse!

doverhog posted:

Instead of various complicated farming subsidies the state should instead buy out the farmers and establish Suomen Maanviljelys and pay a salary to the farm operators.

This is something I don't understand. If the huoltovarmuus is such a big deal for Finland and one of the main reasons for Finnish agriculture, then why don't state just directly hire farmers to farm all the stuff that is necessary? Would be lot simpler than this bureaucracy boondoggle we now have.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 09:49

Rotacixe: Oct 21, 2008

Fish of hemp posted:

This is something I don't understand. If the huoltovarmuus is such a big deal for Finland and one of the main reasons for Finnish agriculture, then why don't state just directly hire farmers to farm all the stuff that is necessary? Would be lot simpler than this bureaucracy boondoggle we now have.

We could establish a paramilitary Farm Corps and provide a safe conduit for patriotic fervor.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 10:18

Darkest Auer: Dec 30, 2006; They're silly; Ramrod XTreme

Fish of hemp posted:

This is something I don't understand. If the huoltovarmuus is such a big deal for Finland and one of the main reasons for Finnish agriculture, then why don't state just directly hire farmers to farm all the stuff that is necessary? Would be lot simpler than this bureaucracy boondoggle we now have.

No one wants the state to make the decisions on what to actually grow.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 10:25

Bensa: Aug 21, 2007; Loyal 'til the end.

Geriatric Pirate posted:

And I've paid into the farmers' pension pool when I was getting a grant, somehow the pension payments I have to make to that pool are about double the normal tyoelake I paid when drawing the same income via a salary. Go figure (you can see some quality farmer-keskusta lobbying going on yet again when people on grants, aka young people with low mortality risk, are thrown into the farmer's pension pool, which even despite this crap needs more government support than any other pension system).

As far as I've understood, the justification for this is that the bulk sum nature of income for both grant receivers and farmers being similar. When I got my first grant during my bachelor's it was a bit weird to read about MELA with all the other papers.

Darkest Auer posted:

No one wants the state to make the decisions on what to actually grow.

They do so indirectly, subsidies aren't equal for all products originating from farms. Its a huge mess with certain products having less demand and lower price, but the subsidy is higher for less work so it ends up being better money for the work put in.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 10:31

brakeless: Apr 11, 2011

DarkCrawler posted:

I feel like a lot of Finns still think their blue-white flag-marked food comes from a good old boy farmer waking up at 4 AM and lovingly being part of the process from beginning to until it goes to a store. It's honestly kind of adorable.

True, I too have the feeling that agribusiness isn't really percieved as an industry. It's the good old farmer Miettinen keeping the countryside inhabited, which is important for some reason.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 11:05

Kemper Boyd: Aug 6, 2007; no kings, no gods, no masters but a comfy chair and no socks

Subsidies make sense in the way that every other country pays subsidies to farmers. So there is really no invisible hand of the market adjusting food prices.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 11:10

Fushigi Yuugi fansub: Jan 20, 2007; BUTT STUFF

you have to be really loving short-sighted and frankly stupid to not support your food production :psyduck:

# ? Mar 13, 2016 11:23

His Divine Shadow: Aug 7, 2000; I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.

Since when has that ever been something in short supply?

# ? Mar 13, 2016 14:03

Darkest Auer: Dec 30, 2006; They're silly; Ramrod XTreme

Nauta posted:

you have to be really loving short-sighted and frankly stupid to not support your food production

In other words, a capitalist

# ? Mar 13, 2016 14:16

Geriatric Pirate: Apr 25, 2008; by Nyc_Tattoo

Fish of hemp posted:

This is something I don't understand. If the huoltovarmuus is such a big deal for Finland and one of the main reasons for Finnish agriculture, then why don't state just directly hire farmers to farm all the stuff that is necessary? Would be lot simpler than this bureaucracy boondoggle we now have.

Probably because most attempts at making farming state-run around the world have led to famine. Incentives matter.

Valiantman posted:

Granted, I don't know how much salary they pay for themselves but I can confirm that at least some do so. I know that because that's pretty much the first thing they cut since in a family business it's all their personal income in the end anyway. I could sort of see where you're coming from (not agree but understand) if you didn't call farmers entitled and say they only fill forms to get money. Their workload is insane compared to their standard of living, I can't even compare the bureucratic pressure to any other job I could come up with and their income depends really heavily on external factors that they cannot control in the slightest. I'm glad you at least put "corrupt" in the scare quotes even though I'm not sure what you implied.

Every farmer I know well enough to have talked about subsidies (a handful) would agree with you about doing away with them, by the way, if only it didn't mean bankruptcy and cessation of agricultural industry in Finland. They'd rather be paid for what they do instead of it being smaller portion than the subsidies. You're right it's not economically viable to farm here in this global situation where importing and exporting is so easy. Money just isn't the only value in the equation as far as I can see it. Since you're perfecly fine with stopping farming of plants and animals in Finland and only seem to consider the economic side of the matter (at least some part of it, I don't think stopping all farming would be beneficial to either the farmers or the state) I don't think we get anywhere discussing this further.

"Corrupt" is in scare quotes because it's not individual farmers who are corrupt or bad, it's just that as a group they benefit from having strong political patrons and a system that's rigged in their favor. I am sure you're correct in that many farmers work very hard, it's just that that's not a justification for the subsidies they receive. And Finland should have some sort of ability to become self-sufficient in terms of food, it's just that the current �3bn a year we spend on farm subsidies (not to mention all the other money that indirectly goes to support farmers, such as subsidies for low population density areas) could probably be cut back a lot further. But that's besides the point, you're correct that we probably just have a fundamental disagreement there.

Nauta posted:

you have to be really loving short-sighted and frankly stupid to not support your food production

Nope, all you need to be is not xenophobic and a taxpayer.

Bensa posted:

As far as I've understood, the justification for this is that the bulk sum nature of income for both grant receivers and farmers being similar. When I got my first grant during my bachelor's it was a bit weird to read about MELA with all the other papers.

They do so indirectly, subsidies aren't equal for all products originating from farms. Its a huge mess with certain products having less demand and lower price, but the subsidy is higher for less work so it ends up being better money for the work put in.

Interesting justification, but it still seems a bit dodgy.

Geriatric Pirate fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Mar 13, 2016

# ? Mar 13, 2016 14:58

Darkest Auer: Dec 30, 2006; They're silly; Ramrod XTreme

Geriatric Pirate posted:

Nope, all you need to be is not xenophobic and a taxpayer.

Look, I know you're really a caricature of an evil vuoristoneuvos, but can you really not tell the difference between food grown in Finland and mercury shipped in from China? Or is it just about money and nothing else?

# ? Mar 13, 2016 15:47

Geriatric Pirate: Apr 25, 2008; by Nyc_Tattoo

Darkest Auer posted:

Look, I know you're really a caricature of an evil vuoristoneuvos, but can you really not tell the difference between food grown in Finland and mercury shipped in from China? Or is it just about money and nothing else?

Whatever food you've been eating seems to have caused some sort of permanent brain damage - the Chinese food can't be any worse

# ? Mar 13, 2016 15:57

Fushigi Yuugi fansub: Jan 20, 2007; BUTT STUFF

Geriatric Pirate posted:

Nope, all you need to be is not xenophobic and a taxpayer.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 16:01

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

i dont really get why people think that finnish food is somehow cleaner than eg. polish, italian or brazilian

# ? Mar 13, 2016 16:04

Fushigi Yuugi fansub: Jan 20, 2007; BUTT STUFF

because finnish people adhere to rules and regulations like proper autists. it's more likely a finnish food producer didn't cut corners in the process, i guess

# ? Mar 13, 2016 16:21

endlessmonotony: Nov 4, 2009; by Fritz the Horse

Hogge Wild posted:

i dont really get why people think that finnish food is somehow cleaner than eg. polish, italian or brazilian

When a Finnish farmer poisons a bunch of Finnish children out of negligence, he risks being lynched.

When a Chinese farmer poisons a bunch of Finnish children out of negligence, he just has to vanish.

# ? Mar 13, 2016 16:24

doverhog: May 31, 2013; Defender of democracy and human rights 🇺🇦

Hogge Wild posted:

i dont really get why people think that finnish food is somehow cleaner than eg. polish, italian or brazilian

There actually are differences. For example Finnish chicken farms don't use antibiotics preemptively, and the same is not true in the rest of Europe.

http://www.hs.fi/tiede/a1382678917956

# ? Mar 13, 2016 18:13

Darkest Auer: Dec 30, 2006; They're silly; Ramrod XTreme

Geriatric Pirate posted:

Whatever food you've been eating seems to have caused some sort of permanent brain damage - the Chinese food can't be any worse

Joke's on you, I am eating Chinese food :smuggo:

# ? Mar 14, 2016 00:35

Herman Merman: Jul 6, 2008

Darkest Auer posted:

No one wants the state to make the decisions on what to actually grow.

Lanttu is perfectly nutritious and also patriotic

# ? Mar 14, 2016 23:05

Kuule hain nussivan: Nov 27, 2008

So anything happen lately?

The ~~yhteiskun~~...~~kilpakyk~~...the sopimus is still going nowhere because EK wants more, the liitot don't want to give any more, the government wants the fiasco to just be done, and everyone is happy to just wait until they can blame someone else for it failing.

Oh, and we're apparently stripping Posti of it's monopoly on letter deliveries. I think it's a relic, and have no opinion on this.

# ? Mar 16, 2016 07:57

Sulphagnist: Oct 10, 2006; WARNING! INTRUDERS DETECTED

I follow American politics to escape Finnish politics, I just want to be able to point and laugh with some degree of distance when the right-wing is loving a country over.

# ? Mar 16, 2016 08:59

Rappaport: Oct 2, 2013

Well, Sipil�'s Aktion T4 is progressing swimmingly.

# ? Mar 16, 2016 09:24

throw to first DAMN IT: Apr 10, 2007; This whole thread has been raging at the people who don't want Saracen invasion to their homes

Perhaps you too should be more accepting of their cultures

Kuule hain nussivan posted:

So anything happen lately?

The ~~yhteiskun~~...~~kilpakyk~~...the sopimus is still going nowhere because EK wants more, the liitot don't want to give any more, the government wants the fiasco to just be done, and everyone is happy to just wait until they can blame someone else for it failing.

Oh, and we're apparently stripping Posti of it's monopoly on letter deliveries. I think it's a relic, and have no opinion on this.

http://www.taloussanomat.fi/kansantalous/2016/03/16/suomen-talous-kasvoi-viime-vuonna-tuotanto-nousi-tammikuussa/20162958/12
The sopimus has been so good that it talous nousi before it was even on paper. Praise Sipil�.

Rappaport posted:

Well, Sipil�'s Aktion T4 is progressing swimmingly.

http://www.iltasanomat.fi/muutlajit/art-2000001139204.html

# ? Mar 16, 2016 11:05

Darkest Auer: Dec 30, 2006; They're silly; Ramrod XTreme

Rappaport posted:

Well, Sipil�'s Aktion T4 is progressing swimmingly.

Hey, if that 75-year-old paraplegic wants a taxi ride to the shops, he'd better pull on those bootstraps and quit being a lazy moocher!

# ? Mar 16, 2016 11:31

brakeless: Apr 11, 2011

Government finds the only group that has even less chance of protesting meaningfully than students.

# ? Mar 16, 2016 18:08

doverhog: May 31, 2013; Defender of democracy and human rights 🇺🇦

So, odins sonturit had their private FB page full of nazi poo poo invaded and publicized by the YLE red army. Nothing surprising about it, except maybe just how stupid they are thinking they could keep that poo poo on Facebook without it ever getting out.

# ? Mar 17, 2016 10:14

No. 1 Callie Fan: Feb 17, 2011; This inkling is your FRIEND
She fights for LOVE

Nazis revealed to be Nazis. Shocking.

# ? Mar 17, 2016 10:25

Kuule hain nussivan: Nov 27, 2008

Rexroom posted:

Nazis revealed to be Nazis. Shocking.

No, it was inside joke in a private group. God, you suvakkis just love calling everybody with a sense of humour a nazi.

# ? Mar 17, 2016 10:53

Zudgemud: Mar 1, 2009; Grimey Drawer

Geriatric Pirate posted:

Maybe we could start some sort of agency dedicated to ensuring that the food and consumer products we eat and use are safe (radical idea, I know). We could call it something like Elintarvikkeiden turvallisuusvirasto, or Elintarviketurvallisuusvirasto, and shorten it to something like Evira. If we're going to be paying farmers to produce clean and safe food instead of just regulating it, why don't we pay the poor, low cost producers abroad instead of our fairly rich domestic farmers to try to produce food in a climate that is terrible for growing food?

Words like these are why we poke fun at the Finnish language. :-)

# ? Mar 17, 2016 11:04

Darkest Auer: Dec 30, 2006; They're silly; Ramrod XTreme

Zudgemud posted:

Words like these are why we poke fun at the Finnish language. :-)

Compound words are the best though

# ? Mar 17, 2016 11:55

Rappaport: Oct 2, 2013

Zudgemud posted:

Words like these are why we poke fun at the Finnish language. :-)

Why yes, my friend was a lentokonesuihkuturbiinimoottoriapumekaanikkoaliupseerioppilas, why do you ask

# ? Mar 17, 2016 12:58

3D Megadoodoo: Nov 25, 2010

Rexroom posted:

Nazis revealed to be Nazis. Shocking.

Ligur ligurally said there are no actual Nazis in Finland so it is shocking.

# ? Mar 17, 2016 15:10

3D Megadoodoo: Nov 25, 2010

Zudgemud posted:

Words like these are why we poke fun at the Finnish language. :-)

We? Illuminati confirmed.

Also I don't really see elintarviketurvallisuusvirasto as being any funnier than victual safety bureau. Saving white space is like putting money in the bank.

# ? Mar 17, 2016 15:12

Buffalo squeeze: Dec 19, 2010; Oh noble brogy. Overflowing with meaty wisdom and secret sauce.

Jerry Cotton posted:

Saving white space is like putting money in the bank.

Get out SOO scum.

# ? Mar 17, 2016 15:15

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# ? May 16, 2024 01:13

3D Megadoodoo: Nov 25, 2010

Buffalo squeeze posted:

Get out SOO scum.

I got negative interest. QED.

# ? Mar 17, 2016 15:22

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Finnish Politics Megathread II: Taru Sorbuksen Herrasta

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