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elbkaida
Jan 13, 2008
Look!

botany posted:

Yeah they're noit conservative by any meaning of the word.

That's why I qualified what I said. Feel free to respond to my other post!

Edit: Would you say it's fair to call CDU conservative?

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botany
Apr 27, 2013

by Lowtax

GaussianCopula posted:

The Greens in Ba-Wü? If you disregard their school and LGBT policy they stand for nearly the same policies the CDU stands for and a lot of people don't care that much about LGBT issues in Germany.

yeah if you disregard all their not-conservative policies they seem conservative. good job.

bronin posted:

They are neo liberal cunts. Also Afghanistan. gently caress them.

neo liberalism is not conservatism.

elbkaida posted:

That's why I qualified what I said. Feel free to respond to my other post!

Edit: Would you say it's fair to call CDU conservative?

elbkaida posted:

They are progressive socially
?

and yeah the CDU is conservative.

Lucy Heartfilia
May 31, 2012


Greens are the least bad party in Germany. Still not great.

Wengy
Feb 6, 2008

Welcome, dear Germans, to the political reality that I, a Swiss citizen, have inhabited for many years. Prepare for unabated right-wing idiocy and (even more) existential despair.

Lucy Heartfilia
May 31, 2012


Fun times ahead indeed.

icantfindaname
Jul 1, 2008


Wengy posted:

Welcome, dear Germans, to the political reality that I, a Swiss citizen, have inhabited for many years. Prepare for unabated right-wing idiocy and (even more) existential despair.

Why is Switzerland so insanely racist anyways? Something in the water? You'd think all the cosmopolitan internationalism and infinitely varied dictators and capitalists coming to stash their money would make you more open to the world but I guess not?

Wengy
Feb 6, 2008

icantfindaname posted:

Why is Switzerland so insanely racist anyways? Something in the water? You'd think all the cosmopolitan internationalism and infinitely varied dictators and capitalists coming to stash their money would make you more open to the world but I guess not?

All the places that actually feature "internationalism" - i. e. an actual foreigner might pop up - are staunchly left-wing. For example, in the national elections last October, the social democrats (significantly to the left of the German SPD) and the greens combined garnered a solid 50% of the votes in my city - which has also been governed by a red-green coalition for the past 25 years.

However, visit the countryside and all bets are off.

Smirr
Jun 28, 2012

Wengy posted:

Welcome, dear Germans, to the political reality that I, a Swiss citizen, have inhabited for many years. Prepare for unabated right-wing idiocy and (even more) existential despair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mxitw5DjwE

Wengy
Feb 6, 2008


Dehumanize yourself and face to bloodshed

It was us all along


computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

icantfindaname posted:

Why is Switzerland so insanely racist anyways? Something in the water? You'd think all the cosmopolitan internationalism and infinitely varied dictators and capitalists coming to stash their money would make you more open to the world but I guess not?

White people with lots of guns that collaborated with the Nazis. It's not typically a winning combination.

Wengy
Feb 6, 2008

computer parts posted:

White people with lots of guns that collaborated with the Nazis. It's not typically a winning combination.

Now, now



Let's not forget about the many generations of inbreeding

System Metternich
Feb 28, 2010

But what did he mean by that?



Just skimmed this. Some highlights

  • They want general plebiscites "following the Swiss example" (for poo poo like the minaret plebiscite, I'm betting)
  • "Es ist nur so viel Freiheit möglich, wie die Sicherheitslage es zulässt. Die Innere Sicherheit in Deutschland nimmt immer mehr ab."(basically freedom < security) Therefore: more police, more money to the military and to intelligence agencies, lowering the age of accountability to twelve, juvenily law stops applying to you the moment you turn 18. But in a later part they say that surveillance is, in fact, bad? Alcohol and drug addicts as well as the untreatably mentally ill should be put into preventive detention.
  • They want to give as many competences back from the EU to the nations states, just stopping short of calling for its abolition and wanting to "return it to an economic community of shared interest consisting of sovereign, loosely connected states" Also a plebiscite about leaving the Eurozone (the length of this paragraph still marks this as an important point for many in the AfD, it seems)
  • Now we get to the fun stuff, i.e. politics after the Republican example. The state should only be active in security matters, foreign policy and financial administration. As many state institutions as possible should be turned into private organisations
  • ~~Free market~~, no handouts to welfare queens (paraphrasing, but basically this), turning unemployment support into a private insurance, tax cuts across the board which ultimately favour the rich, the works
  • Decrying "gender mainstreaming" (also no gendering in language) and wanting to return to the "traditional family" as the ideal. "Eine staatliche Finanzierung des selbstgewählten Lebensmodells „Alleinerziehend“ lehnen wir jedoch ab." (emphasis mine, wtf :captainpop:) Abortion should be made more difficult.
  • Closing the borders, deporting illegal immigrants, getting rid of the right of asylum
  • Islam is "not a party of Germany". No minarets and no muezzins, no muslim bodies as statutory corporations, no burqa und niqab, no circumcision
  • Literally denying climate change, with hot takes like this: "Kohlendioxid (CO2) ist kein Schadstoff, sondern ein unverzichtbarer Bestandteil allen Lebens [...] IPCC und deutsche Regierung unterschlagen jedoch die positive Wirkung des CO2 auf das Pflanzenwachstum und damit auf die Welternährung. Je mehr es davon in der Atmosphäre gibt, umso kräftiger fällt das Pflanzenwachstum aus." Also renewable energy is bad and dumb, and wind turbines are ugly and kill birds (lol) and should therefore be removed. EnEV and EEWärmeG should be ended without replacement.
  • Germany should be more active in the UN and less involved with NATO. Also, slobbering Russia's knob
  • Reinstating compulsory military service
  • Against TTIP and other treaties of the sort
  • Hinting at returning to a gold standard for our currency :allears:
  • A general accident insurance is bad, only private insurances here and only if you want to/can afford it
  • But they want to keep the minimum wage, at least
  • More guns = good
  • Removing the "public" part in public broadcast, turning them into private enterprises. Instead they want two radio and two TV broadcasting stations wholly financed by taxes (and entirely controlled by the state, I'm guessing)
  • "Die Gender-Ideologie erfüllt nicht den Anspruch, der an seriöse Forschung gestellt werden muss. Ihre Methoden sind fragwürdig und ihre Zielsetzung ist nicht wissenschaftlich motiviert, sondern politisch vorgegeben. Sie darf deshalb nicht weiter gefördert werden, und ist abzuschaffen." :qq: And later: "Die Propagierung der Homo- und Transsexualität im Unterricht lehnen wir ebenso entschieden ab wie die ideologische Beeinflussung durch das „Gender Mainstreaming“. Das traditionelle Familienbild darf dadurch nicht zerstört werden. Unsere Kinder dürfen in der Schule nicht zum Spielball der sexuellen Neigungen einer lauten Minderheit werden."
  • State institutions and agencies should use open source software as much as possible, end-to-end encryption should remain legal, no "Bundestrojaner"
  • Against genetic engineering, for protecting the environment, but also for "reintroducing" the free market into agriculture
  • And finally: :420: legalising it! :420: Well, almost: "Süchtigen und sonstigen Konsumenten ist daher die Möglichkeit zu geben, im Wege der kontrollierten Abgabe in den Genuss von Drogen zu gelangen, wenn und soweit auf diese Weise der von Drogenbanden beherrschte Schwarzmarkt ausgetrocknet und die Macht der Verbrecherorganisationen entscheidend geschwächt werden kann."

All in all I think that the program pretty accurately reflects the origin of the AfD as a melting pot of dissappointed voters from political camps all over the spectrum, with a hard turn to the right later on. This also means plenty of internal contradictions, especially when it comes to the question of surveillance vs. liberty and sending soldiers overseas vs. not getting involved. One or two almost reasonable points drown in a sea of poo poo, and it's obvious that they're taking a lot of inspiration both from the GOP and from Putin's Russia.

lllllllllllllllllll
Feb 28, 2010

Now the scene's lighting is perfect!
why can't The Left capitalize on the current situation why can't they

jonnypeh
Nov 5, 2006

quote:

Islam is "not a party of Germany". No minarets and no muezzins, no muslim bodies as statutory corporations, no burqa und niqab, ...

This one sounds pretty good to me, but replace Germany with Europe.

LemonDrizzle
Mar 28, 2012

neoliberal shithead

jonnypeh posted:

This one sounds pretty good to me, but replace Germany with Europe.
outlawing architecture and clothing sounds good to you?

e X
Feb 23, 2013

cool but crude

System Metternich posted:

Just skimmed this. Some highlights

:captainpop:

All in all I think that the program pretty accurately reflects the origin of the AfD as a melting pot of dissappointed voters from political camps all over the spectrum, with a hard turn to the right later on. This also means plenty of internal contradictions, especially when it comes to the question of surveillance vs. liberty and sending soldiers overseas vs. not getting involved. One or two almost reasonable points drown in a sea of poo poo, and it's obvious that they're taking a lot of inspiration both from the GOP and from Putin's Russia.

Outside of their core issues, this reminds me a lot of the Pirtaenpartei, i.e. basically a collection of way to many to many, partially contradictory goals and ideas that will break apart as soon as the uniting principle, refugees, is no longer the number one problem. I think we can prepare for Lucke 2.0

edit: Especially their family policies are basically so fringe to the entire rest of Germany that I can't imagine it nor hurting them. When was the last time abortion or single parents were actually addressed during elections?

e X fucked around with this message at 12:20 on Mar 14, 2016

bronin
Oct 15, 2009

use it or throw it away

lllllllllllllllllll posted:

why can't The Left capitalize on the current situation why can't they

Yeah it boggles my mind how the left loses while the AfD wins the support of lower income votes when most of the proposed policies are basically fygm, give everything to the top 10%.

But who am I kidding, this is Germany. It basically boils down to "dem Browns bad"

elbkaida
Jan 13, 2008
Look!

lllllllllllllllllll posted:

why can't The Left capitalize on the current situation why can't they

Idk the left parties seem to have completely lost touch with their supposed core voters. Looking at the stats, AfD is extremely far ahaed of Linke in the demographics of workers or jobless people. In Sachsen-Anhalt or Baden-Württemberg the same is true for SPD.

Another interesting thing to see is that AfD managed to get a lot of Nichtwähler to turn out and snatched up a big portion of people voting 'other'. 75% of the current AfD voters being protest voters sheds some real doubts about the longterm viability though...

Edit: A similar thing is going on in the UK with UKIP vs Labour btw, where low-income voters run away from the traditional wokring man's party.

jonnypeh
Nov 5, 2006
edit: nevermind, delete this post please.

gently caress too late

jonnypeh fucked around with this message at 12:38 on Mar 14, 2016

System Metternich
Feb 28, 2010

But what did he mean by that?


jonnypeh posted:

I don't have an issue with them from aesthetic standpoint, it's their functions that irk me.

I hope that then you're also for the demolition of church spires and bells and for forcing monks and nuns to don streetwear, otherwise ask Lucy Heartfilia for a new avatar and :frogout:

System Metternich fucked around with this message at 12:46 on Mar 14, 2016

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

bronin posted:

Yeah it boggles my mind how the left loses while the AfD wins the support of lower income votes when most of the proposed policies are basically fygm, give everything to the top 10%.

But who am I kidding, this is Germany. It basically boils down to "dem Browns bad"
You don't need to be this cynical. This thread is the first time I and many other people even heard about the AfD having a program besides "gently caress refugees amirite", nobody who voted for them knows they are pro-life climate change denier supernuttos besides the nazi poo poo. I won't argue that a good portion of their voters will overlook those stances or even in sheer idiocy welcome them, but for this election, they got elected because Merkel Bad and that's it.

e X
Feb 23, 2013

cool but crude
Holy poo poo Metternich, you left out one of the best points: Die aktuelle Verengung der deutschen Erinnerungskultur auf die Zeit des Nationalsozialismus ist zugunsten einer erweiterten Geschichtsbetrachtung aufzubrechen

:allears:

System Metternich
Feb 28, 2010

But what did he mean by that?


^^^ :aaaaa: wow, how could I miss that? Apparently (per my father) they also want orchestras to only play sophisticated music proper to the sensible German ear and not that post-1880-poo poo. Entartete Kunst, anyone? :hitler: ^^^

Simply Simon posted:

You don't need to be this cynical. This thread is the first time I and many other people even heard about the AfD having a program besides "gently caress refugees amirite", nobody who voted for them knows they are pro-life climate change denier supernuttos besides the nazi poo poo. I won't argue that a good portion of their voters will overlook those stances or even in sheer idiocy welcome them, but for this election, they got elected because Merkel Bad and that's it.

An internationally renowned music journalist who has travelled the globe a lot during past decades and who is facebook friends with my father has recently posted tons of islamophobic and "Merkel Bad!" (he only calls her "die Hosenanzugträgerin") stuff. The reason for this is apparently that he once had a bad breakup with a Muslim girl :allears:

System Metternich fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Mar 14, 2016

Mithaldu
Sep 25, 2007

Let's cuddle. :3:

System Metternich posted:

I hope that then you're also for the demolition of church spires and bells and for forcing monks and nuns to don streetwear, otherwise ask Lucy Heartfilia for a new avatar and :frogout:

To be honest, i have no beef with spires, minarets, and any kind of clothes, but i'm all for outlawing bells, muezzins and the regular Kundgebungen down my street, since that stuff is simply Ruhestörung.

e X
Feb 23, 2013

cool but crude
I also really like that they want less single parents, but also make access to abortions more difficult.

fake edit:

quote:

6. Lebensrecht: Willkommenskultur für Neu- und Ungeborene

e X fucked around with this message at 13:06 on Mar 14, 2016

suck my woke dick
Oct 10, 2012

:siren:I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!:siren:

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

icantfindaname posted:

How are the Greens conservatives? Is this just some contrarian "all politicians are the same maaaaan"? They're NIMBY-ist anti-nuclear people, right?

They're not capital C conservatives but have drifted into the same bland zone as the SPD and CDU (but with outdated ideas on environmentalism and token social justice!). A Spießbürgerpartei with green characteristics if you will.

lllllllllllllllllll posted:

why can't The Left capitalize on the current situation why can't they

In addition to the things already mentioned by other people, because the left is now engaged in a circular firing squad instead of constantly beating the drum about basic issues.

tl;dr:

Riso posted:

die Partei ist sehr gut.

GABA ghoul
Oct 29, 2011

Nice Zeit article on why the AfD is gaining popularity:

http://www.zeit.de/2016/12/alternative-fuer-deutschland-waehler-profil-afd-uwe-junge/komplettansicht

There is really nothing that we didn't already know. Like with the Tea Party, their main vector of infection is isolating people in insane online echo chambers and drowning out any counter arguments and reality. There is literally no way to reach them with facts or common sense, because they denounce traditional media as Lügenpresse/Lamestream media.

It's pretty bad and we are only about 4-5 years behind the US on these developments. If the trend continues, German Trump should be here around 2020.

System Metternich
Feb 28, 2010

But what did he mean by that?


Mithaldu posted:

To be honest, i have no beef with spires, minarets, and any kind of clothes, but i'm all for outlawing bells, muezzins and the regular Kundgebungen down my street, since that stuff is simply Ruhestörung.

Maybe it's because I'm a Bavarian Catholic, but come on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYNnGXoAS4M

this is the good poo poo. unironically beautiful and uplifting imo

botany
Apr 27, 2013

by Lowtax

Mithaldu posted:

To be honest, i have no beef with spires, minarets, and any kind of clothes, but i'm all for outlawing bells, muezzins and the regular Kundgebungen down my street, since that stuff is simply Ruhestörung.

You sound like you're 80 years old.

Mithaldu
Sep 25, 2007

Let's cuddle. :3:

waitwhatno posted:

Lügenpresse/Lamestream
I find it funny that this is a recent topic when the Bild has existed for basically ever.


System Metternich posted:

Maybe it's because I'm a Bavarian Catholic, but come on

this is the good poo poo. unironically beautiful and uplifting imo
Yeah, that's only because you were born into that and it's nostalgic for you. I'm glad it gives you something, but to me it's just completely random noisy bing bong. Doesn't help that the church down my road does it at totally unpredictable times and that i have work which causes me to sleep during the day sometimes. If they did it regularly like a muezzin does (every loving morning at like ... 5?) i'd actually investigate ways to stop it.

Also, seriously, if you must have bells, do poo poo like the Hannover Aegidienkirche and don't just jangle your dingles like you're shaking your pants.

http://marktkirche-hannover.de/wp-content/uploads/MK_Aegi_Glockenspiel.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhKBUbR25yo

botany posted:

You sound like you're 80 years old.
:iceburn:

suck my woke dick
Oct 10, 2012

:siren:I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!:siren:

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Mithaldu posted:

I find it funny that this is a recent topic when the Bild has existed for basically ever.

Bild isn't Lügenpresse because Bild is the newspaper of the uneducated people, reporting making poo poo up about their day-to-day issues. Öffentlich-Rechtliches Fernsehen and the FAZ/Süddeutsche are the Lügenpresse because they are obviously just catering to a disconnected Bildungsbürger elite out to oppress the German Volk.

Cingulate
Oct 23, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

blowfish posted:

Bild isn't Lügenpresse because Bild is the newspaper of the uneducated people, presenting making poo poo up about their day-to-day issues. Öffentlich-Rechtliches Fernsehen and the FAZ/Süddeutsche are the Lügenpresse because they are obviously just catering to a disconnected Bildungsbürger elite out to oppress the German Volk.
Bild has been about as anti-AfD and Pegida as everybody else.

suck my woke dick
Oct 10, 2012

:siren:I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!:siren:

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Cingulate posted:

Bild has been about as anti-AfD and Pegida as everybody else.

Yeah, but AfD and Pegida didn't shout at the top of their lungs about the evils of Bild when the Lügenpresse bullshit began.

System Metternich
Feb 28, 2010

But what did he mean by that?


If you've got some time to burn, then you could do worse than reading this ZEIT Online article about the people that vote AfD and the role of social media in the party's rise, it's really good.

Riso
Oct 11, 2008

by merry exmarx

quote:

Removing the "public" part in public broadcast, turning them into private enterprises. Instead they want two radio and two TV broadcasting stations wholly financed by taxes (and entirely controlled by the state, I'm guessing)

Are you seriously suggesting public tv in Germany is not state controlled? Besides current public tv is hardly different from private these days so why bother keeping it around.

Some interesting alternate proposal I read to get documentaries, political shows etc into private channels is to simply have the state have a bidding to finance a show on a topic and the best proposal submitted will be funded.

Drone
Aug 22, 2003

Incredible machine
:smug:



So is Pegida under observation by the BfV?

And if NPD and, for whatever outdated reason, die Linke are under scrutiny, when will it happen to AfD?

Perestroika
Apr 8, 2010

System Metternich posted:

If you've got some time to burn, then you could do worse than reading this ZEIT Online article about the people that vote AfD and the role of social media in the party's rise, it's really good.

Oh my god, that Rödel guy they open the article with is really a top goon. Expressing his dissatisfaction through a series of (formally rather sketchy) logical equations. :allears:

botany
Apr 27, 2013

by Lowtax
yep, those are, uh, formulas :yikes:

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE
At least we don't live in a two party system were a nutty but activist base can actually capture one of the two. And the refugee crisis seems to basically wind down for us, thanks to Austria and the Balkan countries who closed their borders. The inevitable collapse of Greece will probably remain contained enough to not rock the boat too much, all important actors had many years to prepare for it. So the Greeks are hosed, and the AfD will probably lose enough support that they will likely shrink to the size of the FDP, which allows the other mainstream parties to return to business as usual.

I also can't imagine that outright racism will become much worse, the younger generations are a lot more diverse than all the old geezers that vote AfD. At least in West Germany.

Meanwhile, the SPD loses support among working class people for reasons that will always mystify me. Mindestlohn ist anscheinend eine Idee der CDU oder so... :suicide:

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Schurik
Sep 13, 2008


System Metternich posted:

this is the good poo poo. unironically beautiful and uplifting imo

Lmao this is the most annoying poo poo I've heard in a long time.

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