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My first impression of this is really good, actually - The infamy V builds that currently exist are way too good at doing everything and it would be neat if more specialization were required so that there could be a bit more teamwork in Payday 2. Of course, I suppose the other trees could turn out to be aggressively bad, but as it stands I really only think ammo efficiency jumps out as a sort of poo poo skill, but since I use mostly sniper rifles these days it would actually be pretty fun to shoot several cops in the head and get the one bullet I used back. Also if they just make shouting down cops a default feature that would actually be pretty swell. Geight fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Mar 19, 2016 |
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Mar 19, 2016 03:47
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It does seem like a lot less will be gained with the same amount of points even if its trimming a lot of the fat the trees had. It's likely going to suck when the builds of old die, yet we still go after those with the most semblance of the fart gunner or the Masterforcer. Crime Dad help us if Technician is even more of a flyover skill tree than before. Guess infamy 3.0 will have a use in letting people play with configurations, assuming pubbie backlash doesn't make the extra levels give back the 16 other points from the old 120 over a few more infamy gains.
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Mar 19, 2016 04:01
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Actually ideally a lot of gimme skills like Pack Mule and Fast Hands would be trimmed from the game and their effects just made the default, but that might be hoping for too much.
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Mar 19, 2016 04:05
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This doesn't look like the worst thing ever, but we'll see how it actually plays. It'll be a huge letdown if they don't fix the dysfunctional stuff that composes Tech and Ghost, though. Splitting Tech into drill skills/sentries/C4, for example, would just be terrible, if the deployables don't get some work.
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Mar 19, 2016 04:05
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You have to Ace sentry skills to unlock Stun Resistance.
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Mar 19, 2016 06:02
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Reserving judgement until I see the other proposed trees - except that bit about reducing the total number of skill points. gently caress that poo poo, it's a rip-off.
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Mar 19, 2016 07:20
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4 Points is a bit of a rip as you could save more than that with the previous system even after adjustment. Instead of points I would mind being able to skip from tree to tree instead which is like the old system but not as to balance it out you can only bounce between any two trees in a class.Wastrel_ posted:Reserving judgement until I see the other proposed trees - except that bit about reducing the total number of skill points. gently caress that poo poo, it's a rip-off.
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Mar 19, 2016 07:53
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Oh! Kilmer is going to be only 10 points away! Wonderful, I'm going to enjoy that rather a lot. Health Regen down the same tree at only 28 points, no less. I'm liking Inspire being noticeably shallower too, thanks to the cut in tree heights. Gonna make it much easier to build gimmicks with top tier abilities. Plus it'll make it more fun playing with my friends now that it's going to be much easier to hit a top tier skill. Much as I enjoy punching through to the roof of a skill tree, it's quite the hump just starting out having to take so many situational skills before hitting something really interesting.
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Mar 19, 2016 10:41
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So my question is, are the trees going to be similar to Perk Decks in that you can only pick one of them? Or will you be able to mix and match your abilities like before? On the one hand it encourages going deeper into a "class" of build, but on the other it severely restricts what you can do overall, and it will probably make certain "classes" just out and out better at copshooting, which is not a good thing. If I want to be a Masterforcer and shout my teammates up while running around with a Beagle at mach 3 dressed like the Michelin Man I will goddammit. 
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Mar 19, 2016 16:37
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IBlameRoadSuess posted:So my question is, are the trees going to be similar to Perk Decks in that you can only pick one of them? Or will you be able to mix and match your abilities like before? On the one hand it encourages going deeper into a "class" of build, but on the other it severely restricts what you can do overall, and it will probably make certain "classes" just out and out better at copshooting, which is not a good thing. If I want to be a Masterforcer and shout my teammates up while running around with a Beagle at mach 3 dressed like the Michelin Man I will goddammit. The post talking about the new system said they don't want to cut down build diversity and actually want to encourage more of it. Whether the changes are actually going to encourage diversification is another question, but they at least intend to, so I don't imagine they're going to restrict players to a single 'class'.
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Mar 19, 2016 18:34
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They're not going to restrict where you put points. You can dump points into every tree or just drop it all in one.
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Mar 19, 2016 18:49
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You can't really call the new system with fewer points a 'rip off' until you have a better sense of what the other trees look like. If fewer overall points are required to get the same build, or possibly a new, better build, it's not really a straight 1-to-1 comparison, especially now that tier locks are supposedly gone.
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Mar 19, 2016 18:54
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It actually makes sense to reduce the total amount of points given since the tiers have a much more gentle curve instead of being half 1/3s and half 4/8s. Tier 1 Basic skills costs 1 skill point and Aced skills costs 3 skill points Tier 2 Basic skills costs 2 skill points and Aced skills costs 4 skill points Tier 3 Basic skills costs 3 skill points and Aced skills costs 5 skill points Tier 4 Basic skills costs 4 skill points and Aced skills costs 6 skill points. It takes less points to make it to the top tier, and acing those top tier skills costs less than it does now. It's really quite sensible to reduce the total amount of skill points, in this case.
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Mar 19, 2016 19:36
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Unrelated but anyone that wants to see what a Deathvox experience is like might look at the Deatwish + mod. I played a Birth of Sky game with it and we spent 20 minutes in the warehouse, trying to get to the roof before we wiped. Everyone was a good player but spawns were constant, dozers took more than 1 RPG shot to kill and Gensec elites had shotguns as well as their standard rifles. Breaks between assaults lasted less than 10 seconds and enemies were still on the map so you couldn't really take advantage of the break anyway.
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Mar 19, 2016 20:57
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Vox has actually said before he hates the Deathwish+ mod.
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Mar 19, 2016 21:05
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UnknownMercenary posted:Vox has actually said before he hates the Deathwish+ mod. Yeah, it is pretty much unplayable. Even with top players, it is unrelenting. There's never a break to get anything done.
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Mar 19, 2016 21:33
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In brackets are my responses.quote:This custom difficulty creates many changes to the Death Wish difficulty including: Yeah, it's a waste of time. Oh, what's this: quote:For those of you who like to live dangerously, there's another version. One that makes even the PAYDAY Gang tremble with fear: Infinite Mode. No more waiting out assaults. No more second chances. The assault will not stop, you will not be traded from custody, and the cops will never stop trying to bring you to justice. 
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Mar 19, 2016 23:13
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And Vox did look upon the mod most resembling his beloved Deathvox and swiftly rejected it as pointlessly cruel and unfun. Speaking of which, guess you have to rethink it completely now that skills are about to change.
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Mar 19, 2016 23:24
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Yeah I've run into the same guy a few times running a public lobby with infinite mode on. Nice dude but he's loving crazy to think that something like Alesso can be accomplished under those conditions.
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Mar 19, 2016 23:27
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Crabtree posted:And Vox did look upon the mod most resembling his beloved Deathvox and swiftly rejected it as pointlessly cruel and unfun. The changes to skills are an ongoing problem for me; most of the original design was from before perk decks were even a thing. I'm mostly concentrating on heist-specific changes, which thankfully don't require as much attention to the skill changes. The new changes so far look pretty good!
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Mar 19, 2016 23:29
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Discendo Vox posted:In brackets are my responses. (host only) probably indicates that only the host needs the mod for that particular tweak to work. it is contrasted with the respawning captain winters thing. it's not heartening that he doesn't have these notes on all of the bullets, it even more strongly implies that he hasn't really thought this through at all.
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Mar 20, 2016 00:10
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My idea of Deathwish would be something close to National Guard Response. Ramp up total spawns by about 50% including specials. Damage and accuracy remain the same as Overkill with the same special rules. When one group is eliminated another is immediately spawned. Skull Dozers will remain as is. Whites would have greater cohesion similar to Winters, damage from whites brought back a hair. No break in assaults, so no trading. Enemy speeds remain the same. It will still be quite doable, but to get anything done, you would move as a team or 2 by 2 cover and move. The pressure is would a little more I can't move as freely rather than I can't move at all and barely shoot while an assault is on. I really hate how DW forces you to camp, its no fun and messes with the dynamic element of play. You pretty much have only one way to play most DW level maps. If you don't follow that plan, your chances of completing that heist drops dramatically. DW was a compromise done to allow the old consoles to have DW in the first place so the only thing they could really do is increase incoming DPS as the CPUs are very limited. Now that they are dumped, I hope they revamp DW to be more fun.
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Mar 20, 2016 02:28
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oohhboy posted:I really hate how DW forces you to camp, its no fun and messes with the dynamic element of play. You pretty much have only one way to play most DW level maps. If you don't follow that plan, your chances of completing that heist drops dramatically. This is false, unless you are bad at shooting the mans.
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Mar 20, 2016 02:56
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There are few situations where camping is really required these days. And I use "required" loosely; you can throw that out of the window with a competent suit build.
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Mar 20, 2016 02:58
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UnknownMercenary posted:There are few situations where camping is really required these days. And I use "required" loosely; you can throw that out of the window with a competent suit build. I agree- DW camping is only really "needed" in a couple places that I can think of, like HM2 and maybe some parts of the goat heist. I think dodge builds have really opened up the game a lot, and aside from maybe some of the things you can get up to with crit they're at a good place balance-wise. It's mostly the scope of health recovery that's made the game too easy.
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Mar 20, 2016 03:01
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LuciferMorningstar posted:This is false, unless you are bad at shooting the mans. The only thing I am missing is reputation without reproach. I can shoot mans just fine, there isn't 4 of me and you have to take into account of lower end players. Having a plan means they have to think less and concentrate on shooting mans with less dying on our part. Git Gud is a bad way to design game. You guy keep forgetting that you're probably the top 5% of players. Designing a game for 5% of players is a really good way to piss everyone off with an unplayable game as there are always people demanding more and more ramping up.
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Mar 20, 2016 03:07
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oohhboy posted:The only thing I am missing is reputation without reproach. I can shoot mans just fine, there isn't 4 of me and you have to take into account of lower end players. Having a plan means they have to think less and concentrate on shooting mans with less dying on our part. Maybe not all difficulties should be accessible to everyone.
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Mar 20, 2016 03:14
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LuciferMorningstar posted:Maybe not all difficulties should be accessible to everyone. You probably don't know, so I'm just going to clue you in, you definitely sound like an rear end in a top hat right now.
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Mar 20, 2016 03:34
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Allen Wren posted:You probably don't know, so I'm just going to clue you in, you definitely sound like an rear end in a top hat right now. 
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Mar 20, 2016 03:37
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I also agree with LM's general sentiment about balance-not everything needs to be accessible to the average pubbie- doing so places limits on several dimensions of how you could approach design. On the other hand, I think it's safe to say that DW isn't well-made as a difficulty, and that RBR accelerates its problems. oohhboy, what approach are you taking to RBR?
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Mar 20, 2016 03:38
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LuciferMorningstar posted:Maybe not all difficulties should be accessible to everyone. The pubbie national anthem of "This game is Too Easy".
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Mar 20, 2016 04:48
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I wonder what Fugitive will be used for now..Akimbo LMGs, anyone?
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Mar 20, 2016 04:49
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BillmasterCozb posted:I wonder what Fugitive will be used for now..Akimbo LMGs, anyone? Pistol skills with the top one being akimbo.
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Mar 20, 2016 04:54
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watho posted:Pistol skills with the top one being akimbo. Most likely, but still, we need akimbo LMGs or SMGs. let me dual wield the cobras, drat it!
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Mar 20, 2016 04:56
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The fact that you can't dual wield Micro Uzis, Mac 10s, or even STRYKs should be criminal.
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Mar 20, 2016 04:59
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The assumption right now on the Steam forums is that Technician will get bonuses to auto fire guns like LMGs since all the sharpshooter stuff is in Mastermind.
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Mar 20, 2016 05:17
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If Fugitive gets all the pistol stuff, then I wonder what that leaves Ghost with. More silencer skills? A proper set of SMG skills? Though I suppose I'm just blindly assuming that they're going to give every class a fully fleshed-out weapon tree.
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Mar 20, 2016 05:17
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I've posted my idea for Deathwish in the thread but it's basically L4D's Realism mode: no outlines, ammo pickup reduced to .8x, cops do bonus damage to health. Overkill stuff with skulldozers and elites mixed in.John Murdoch posted:If Fugitive gets all the pistol stuff, then I wonder what that leaves Ghost with. More silencer skills? A proper set of SMG skills? Though I suppose I'm just blindly assuming that they're going to give every class a fully fleshed-out weapon tree. I would assume SMGs, but...
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Mar 20, 2016 05:21
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An ECM/Camera trick branch and not much else if they don't likely split those up. Ghost wasn't that much better off than Technician and that's only because what could have made it better was mutated into Fugitive. Mastermind and Enforcer are the only trees that have an easy shortening blocks to go into, the rest either need rethinking or completely new ideas.
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Mar 20, 2016 05:25
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So Bonnie is best heister again, yes?
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Mar 20, 2016 05:30
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