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Neddy Seagoon posted:Except the shift in writing style is so abrupt that it screams something happened there. Fumina in the first few episodes reads like she came from a more complete series bible than the other two, and somewhere midway it got retooled into The Sekai Show. Also Sekai didn't have rivals, he had adoring cultists who wanted him because Eh, I guess I'm just not seeing it. Fumina in the first episodes makes me think of someone like Karou from Kenshin or Meryl from Trigun or whoever. She's there to be the grounded face for when the exceptional protagonist comes up and to support and clash with him. She can still be useful in combat but it's clear from the first episode (which focuses on Sekai being so awesome and his robot debuting and so-on) that we're supposed to be more impressed by him.
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Mar 17, 2016 03:46
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. A final-four showdown should not have three teams wanking about how no, they will be the one to face Sekai rather than focusing on their actual opponent.
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ImpAtom posted:Eh, I guess I'm just not seeing it. Fumina in the first episodes makes me think of someone like Karou from Kenshin or Meryl from Trigun or whoever. She's there to be the grounded face for when the exceptional protagonist comes up and to support and clash with him. She can still be useful in combat but it's clear from the first episode (which focuses on Sekai being so awesome and his robot debuting and so-on) that we're supposed to be more impressed by him. You can say the same thing of the ending of the original build fighters that we are supposed to be more impressed by Reiji and his awesome debut, but Sei is still the protagonist.
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Mar 17, 2016 06:46
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I wonder if bandai executives truly believe the world would forget gunpla if they greenlit a female main character in a show.
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Mar 17, 2016 07:21
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ImpAtom posted:Eh, I guess I'm just not seeing it. Fumina in the first episodes makes me think of someone like Karou from Kenshin or Meryl from Trigun or whoever. She's there to be the grounded face for when the exceptional protagonist comes up and to support and clash with him. She can still be useful in combat but it's clear from the first episode (which focuses on Sekai being so awesome and his robot debuting and so-on) that we're supposed to be more impressed by him. You've got it the wrong way round. The first few episodes are built on Fumina stuck being bottom rung, with no teammates anymore to even stand a chance despite being a competent fighter and builder, and here at the end is Sekai pulling out the BBG from the Dom and just MAYBE, with his help, she might finally see a ranked victory. The exact same way the first episode of Build Fighters went with Reiji.
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Mar 17, 2016 07:33
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Neddy Seagoon posted:You've got it the wrong way round. The first few episodes are built on Fumina stuck being bottom rung, with no teammates anymore to even stand a chance despite being a competent fighter and builder, and here at the end is Sekai pulling out the BBG from the Dom and just MAYBE, with his help, she might finally see a ranked victory. The exact same way the first episode of Build Fighters went with Reiji. It really wasn't. Build Fighters was built off the idea of there being a Builder and a Fighter and set up the co-protagonist duties that way. BFT dropped that idea entirely in favor of the 3-man-teams and set itself up with the almost entirely cliche red hotblooded, blue genius and girl team combo and gave pretty much all the protagonist swagger to Sekai. BF set up its first episode as "together, these two will be unstoppable" and Try instead sets it up as "here is the amazing guy who will be their team ace!" With Sei and Reiji the Build-Fighter concept meant they could share the slot because they were both in the main robot and had entirely non-overlapping skillsets. It was a really smart design decision. BFT just has the more traditional anime team and it never honestly deviates from it except insomuch as Fumina is not as entirely worthless as the girl character tends to be in a lot of those shows like Danball. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Mar 17, 2016 |
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Mar 17, 2016 08:06
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ImpAtom posted:It really wasn't. Build Fighters was built off the idea of there being a Builder and a Fighter and set up the co-protagonist duties that way. BFT dropped that idea entirely in favor of the 3-man-teams and set itself up with the almost entirely cliche red hotblooded, blue genius and girl team combo and gave pretty much all the protagonist swagger to Sekai. BF set up its first episode as "together, these two will be unstoppable" and Try instead sets it up as "here is the amazing guy who will be Fumina's team ace!" The third slot filling out with Fumina's childhood friend still reinforces that she was the original center of the group, not Sekai.
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Mar 17, 2016 08:12
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Neddy Seagoon posted:The third slot filling out with Fumina's childhood friend still reinforces that she was the original center of the group, not Sekai. Yea it's clunky but it's coming from a place of "you need your new and old friend to really give you the drive you need". She still has her role as the grounding force
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Mar 17, 2016 08:16
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Neddy Seagoon posted:The third slot filling out with Fumina's childhood friend still reinforces that she was the original center of the group, not Sekai. She's the reason the group gets together but that doesn't make her the original protagonist, especially with the show's stated goal of being a romantic comedy this time and the show started setting up the romantic pairings early. (Probably because that was a popular part of BF classic.) Frankly I think she would have been a better protagonist but from Episode 1 she was being overshadowed by Sekai. It's easy to see how she could have been the protagonist but nothing in the show really makes me feel like that got past maybe a very early draft. Maybe I'm just biased here because I did watch through Danball before I watched BFT but it felt like a really naked attempt to try to hit the same feel and tone as that show and ended up lacking either the sheer toyetic insanity of Danball or the heartfelt fanboyism of Build Fighters. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 08:33 on Mar 17, 2016 |
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Mar 17, 2016 08:21
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ImpAtom posted:She's the reason the group gets together but that doesn't make her the original protagonist, especially with the show's stated goal of being a romantic comedy this time and the show started setting up the romantic pairings early. (Probably because that was a popular part of BF classic.) Frankly I think she would have been a better protagonist but from Episode 1 she was being overshadowed by Sekai. It's easy to see how she could have been the protagonist but nothing in the show really makes me feel like that got past maybe a very early draft. Now you're pretty much getting where some of us are coming from. One other thing is looking at the way they're written from the start of the show; We know who Fumina is, we see what her goal is and what her plan to achieve it is, she just lacks the means. Here is her estranged childhood friend Yuuma, whom they made a promise together as kids to enter the World Tournament together. He's an artistic builder rather than a fighter, but still wants to help Fumina when no-one else does and joins her team. here iS Sekai. He Is tha strongast fitter, of all wit hiz kun-fu. evrione wents to fit him becaz he is stron. All tha girlz went him. (Okay granted, it's not that bad early on, it just kinda becomes a slow steady creeping awareness the more you get through the series)
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Mar 17, 2016 08:49
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Fumina's chance at being the main protagonist decreased with each successive JIGEEN HAAOOOHHHH e: actually it was already at 0% when her inspiration to fight with gunpla was Lady Kawaguchi who written solely to be a gender appropriate role model and teacher for her Eej fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Mar 17, 2016 |
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Mar 17, 2016 08:51
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I agree w ImpAtom that Fumina's intro always felt like she was being used as a normal viewpoint character to me. Not to mention she was the captain of a sports team and the general trend with sports anime is, the captain is rarely the protagonist since they already know a lot about the sport in question so it's easier to ease viewers in with someone who knows jack poo poo about it as your lead  (It's especially helpful when the sport in question is a fictional one)
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Mar 17, 2016 10:11
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Sekai was incredibly obviously the "exceptionally talented protagonist who doesn't know poo poo about the sport but is just super good anyway and don't you want to be like him well hey learn about the sport with him because you both probably have the same level of knowledge of it and you can embody his spirit as he grows" character. He was like an executive/marketing friendly version of Reiji; Sekai got into the spirit of poo poo and slowly learned about things, but through the entire series Reiji just kind of went with the flow and had fun. Reiji was too aloof for kids to embody, to executives; he was like the Han Solo character, the guy who was super cool. Executives are stupid, and think kids want someone JUST LIKE THEM! to watch, as opposed to wanting to be the coolest fucker on the block. Sekai was the braindead doof who was cool because he could hit poo poo, but he had no nuance or interesting traits because they wanted him to be generic as possible. He was absolutely the main, marketable character, because from his very conception he was what executives think kids enjoy. Fumina was never the main character, and fits into her role as "token girl assist" pretty obviously. Red-Blue-Yellow trio with Red being the main is pretty established, so Fumina being yellow means she was never the primary protagonist.
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Mar 21, 2016 05:16
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My favorite part of BFT is still the bit in the first episode where Fumina has to tie Sekai down in order to keep him still long enough to teach him about gunpla.
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Mar 21, 2016 05:27
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Well Manicured Man posted:My favorite part of BFT is still the bit in the first episode where Fumina has to tie Sekai down in order to keep him still long enough to teach him about gunpla. And that anything Gunpla-related is done for him by another character with no real interest or initiative from Sekai. Save maybe the last episode, and even that is dicey because Shia was apparently helping. From past experience, that could easily translate to "she did all of it while Sekai ran kung-fu drills in the yard".
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Mar 21, 2016 07:31
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Neddy Seagoon posted:And that anything Gunpla-related is done for him by another character with no real interest or initiative from Sekai. Save maybe the last episode, and even that is dicey because Shia was apparently helping. From past experience, that could easily translate to "she did all of it while Sekai ran kung-fu drills in the yard". I dunno, Reiji's level of interest in Gunpla building was roughly equivalent to Sekai's. Both of them had an episode where they built a beginner gunpla and had a fight with it(Sekai vs Minato with the SDs, Reiji/Aila vs GUNPLA MAFIA), both of them helped participate to the best of their abilities on token repairs at times. It's really hard to come up with reasons for why a total newbie like Sekai would ever logically participate in helping to upgrade/modify super custom jobs like the teams were using when he could just leave Yuuma and Fumina to do it competently without the risk of loving it up. BFT had a lot less focus on the hobby and Gundam side of things in general but I don't think it was down to Sekai being noticeably less interested in Gunpla than his direct analogue in BF. The show's writing in general just had little interest in that side of things compared to the first season at every level, which is why we had stuff like most of the major suits being brand new custom jobs instead of being clever modifications to existing Gundam suits, less Gundam cameos, very little focus on the characters actually caring about Gundam as a franchise(unlike Sei who basically bled Gundam), etc.
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Mar 21, 2016 10:55
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It's a weird criticism to me since there are some fine sports anime where the main character isn't interested in the technical side of things for whatever the sport is.
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Mar 21, 2016 11:01
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Kanos posted:I dunno, Reiji's level of interest in Gunpla building was roughly equivalent to Sekai's. Both of them had an episode where they built a beginner gunpla and had a fight with it(Sekai vs Minato with the SDs, Reiji/Aila vs GUNPLA MAFIA), both of them helped participate to the best of their abilities on token repairs at times. It's really hard to come up with reasons for why a total newbie like Sekai would ever logically participate in helping to upgrade/modify super custom jobs like the teams were using when he could just leave Yuuma and Fumina to do it competently without the risk of loving it up. Except Reiji actually continued on from building his own kit into helping with the SBS of his own initiative. He even kept the Beginning Gundam that he made and put it to use on a few occasions. Reiji also went out to learn how to play Gunpla Battles properly by practising. Everything Sekai did was almost always at the impetus of someone else. You could replace him with a smiling lump of wood and lose mothing. And if Sekai's going to be using the BBG, you'd think at the very least he'd show some effort to get in on upgrading and tailoring it for his personal use.
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Mar 21, 2016 11:22
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Honestly, the thing that started killing my interest in BFT was how much they scaled back and de-escalated everything into a safe, generic sports show. It's hard to take any kind of stakes seriously when the previous series slowly escalated to "Tiny Gundams save the world."
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Mar 21, 2016 11:34
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The GIG posted:Honestly, the thing that started killing my interest in BFT was how much they scaled back and de-escalated everything into a safe, generic sports show. It's hard to take any kind of stakes seriously when the previous series slowly escalated to "Tiny Gundams save the world." Dont forget going on about how big and amazing the National tournament was. And the punchline of capping the series with "Hurray, we made it to the World Cu*INDETERMINED PERIOD OF TIME LATER*".
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Mar 21, 2016 11:50
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Except Reiji actually continued on from building his own kit into helping with the SBS of his own initiative. He even kept the Beginning Gundam that he made and put it to use on a few occasions. Reiji also went out to learn how to play Gunpla Battles properly by practising. Sekai helped with maintaining the Build Burning almost exactly as much as Reiji helped with maintaining the Star Build Strike; he helped perform token repairs on occasion(Sekai learning to repair the Build Burning with Shia before fighting Wilfred for the first time is directly comparable to Reiji helping Sekai spray glue all over the Star Build's arm during the Nils fight). Sekai also went through training to learn to use the Build Burning just like Reiji went through training for Gunpla. That's what the whole pool segment was all about and how Sekai learned to do the Plavsky Particle Platform jumping in space and stuff so he could actually use martial arts when the terrain wasn't favorable. He did show some effort into upgrading and tailoring the Build Burning for his personal use. Hell, Sekai actually went above and beyond Reiji by actively participating in the upgrading of the Build Burning to the Try Burning, whereas Sei basically shut Reiji out of the Build Strike -> Star Build segment almost completely. Reiji didn't have personal input on the Star Build at all, Sei simply built it for Reiji's personal use for him. Build Fighters Try is not remotely as good of a show as Build Fighters and Sekai is not a good protagonist, but the stuff you're calling him out on not doing is stuff he actually did. The lack of love and focus on gunpla and Gundam is endemic to the show in general, not to Sekai in particular.
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Mar 21, 2016 11:52
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Dont forget going on about how big and amazing the National tournament was. And the punchline of capping the series with "Hurray, we made it to the World Cu*INDETERMINED PERIOD OF TIME LATER*". Like honestly it's not even that either. There are ways to make that work, you just have to make it more personal and make it mean more to each of the characters. Raise the individual stakes to something higher than I want to go to the world cup/Fulfill my grudge/punch things.
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Mar 21, 2016 12:12
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Gunpla literally saving the world wasn't a bad development necessarily, but it seemed like a fairly large and dumb escalation, i didn't like it. BFT's escalation issues felt more about not even reaching the level of competition as BF rather than one-upping BF's dumb climax.
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Mar 21, 2016 12:57
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Nothing really felt important in Try. The framing device of "Win the Nationals to go to the World Title offscreen" didn't help things either. Like you can have the nationals feel as important if you frame it right. Make it Fumina's last stand to get a real title, either win now and use it to make Gunpla Battles a career in Japan atleast, or fade away and lose her dream. Yuuma is already a champion builder, make him chase it to cement his mastery of all aspects of gunpla. Keep Sekai as the shonen hero who wants his friends to meet their dreams I don't know. Just make it feel important even if it isn't as big as last series.
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Mar 21, 2016 13:08
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dogsicle posted:Gunpla literally saving the world wasn't a bad development necessarily, but it seemed like a fairly large and dumb escalation, i didn't like it. BFT's escalation issues felt more about not even reaching the level of competition as BF rather than one-upping BF's dumb climax. It worked for Build Fighters because it knew exactly what it was - pure dumb fun for the fandom.
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Mar 21, 2016 13:08
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I've never considered the original to be just dumb fun, i feel calling it that does it a little disservice as it's legit a pretty solid sports show.
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Mar 21, 2016 13:17
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I think the biggest thing missing from Try is that the cast never seemed to have much of an overarching goal beyond winning at video games. Their victories never actually meant anything thematically. Not that I think Build Fighters is especially written well either, but they at least had these ideas about Sei being in his father's shadow and whatnot and wanting to prove himself for specific reasons, and then there was the actual plot and mind control and all that later on. There was also that stuff about the honorable way to play video games I guess with stuff like the Meijin vs. Renato Bros. fight.
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Mar 21, 2016 14:33
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Build Fighter Tried and Failed, more like it.
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Mar 21, 2016 14:40
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Tried and Died
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Mar 21, 2016 14:43
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Sakurazuka posted:Tried and Died we're still supposedly getting those OVAs
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Mar 21, 2016 14:47
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BFT just honestly didn't have a clear cohesive theme. BF was a love letter to Gundam and almost everything it did was that. Chances to animate rare machines, goofy-in jokes and characters who all shared a love of Gundam or made friends with people who did. BFT honestly could have been literally anything and except for a few jokes nothing would have changed. Most of the machines were completely original which isn't bad in concept but meant they had little to carry them. No strong themes, no overarching concept, basically nothing. BF felt more slapdash. (By the end everyone was hooking up basically because people liked them being hooked up) but even that had some emotion behind it whereas Sekai's Anime Harem felt entirely like they were obligated to do it.
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Mar 21, 2016 15:07
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Raxivace posted:I think the biggest thing missing from Try is that the cast never seemed to have much of an overarching goal beyond winning at video games. Their victories never actually meant anything thematically. This post is actually the reason why so many people daydream about Fumina being the main character, despite it never really being a thing. Fumina had an established goal driving her onward and a dream she wanted to reach via gunpla: save her club, win the tournament, and reach the level of Lady Meijin, an arc very similar to Sei's and one that works pretty well for a sports anime. Sekai never really had that kind of direction, since he got into gunpla specifically because it let him use martial arts on people without hurting them, not because of gunpla themselves. Again, here he's almost identical to Reiji; both of them are super-talented aces who only got into gunpla fighting video games because they're competitive and want to beat people in a competition, but neither of them really give much of a poo poo about the gunpla themselves and only later come to care. The difference between the two series is that the character with the actual motivations was the focus character in BF and wasn't in BFT.
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Mar 21, 2016 15:10
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Kanos posted:Sekai never really had that kind of direction, since he got into gunpla specifically because it let him use martial arts on people without hurting them, not because of gunpla themselves. That could've been so cool. If Sekai was like, a violent delinquent, and he got in trouble for it, and discovered Gunpla as an outlet that turned his life around. Instead he was just the best martial artist ever, and couldn't do martial arts without hurting people cause he was just too strong
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Mar 21, 2016 15:16
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For me, ignoring all the issues with the plot, my biggest issue with BFT was the suits themselves. GBF was all about the insane customs built off of pre-existing kits but apart from a few notable exceptions BFT felt like 90% original's instead of customs. I want to see more Fenice and Trion 3 not Build Burning and Winning Gundam.
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Mar 21, 2016 18:22
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I dunno, Gundam Portent and Transient Gundam look like awesome customs.
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Mar 21, 2016 18:54
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Portent and Transient bored me. They looked like generic Gundam 00 mecha. At least TheEND was absurdly ridiculous in a way I found memorable and enjoyable.
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Mar 21, 2016 19:18
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I like how the Portent manages to be sleekly minimalist without being boring, even if I'm not all that sure about those big, unnecessary fins. Kind of like the Victory-2 from another direction. The Transient was an ugly mass of angular spiky bits that showcased the worst of 00 suit design, though (without the fun self-awareness of the Exia Dark Matter).
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Mar 21, 2016 19:32
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So there was a post forever ago in this thread or the one before it that said one translation of "Kira Yamato" is "Sparkle Japanman." Aren't there other translations for those two words, though? I was just reminded of this while listening to Death Note music. I'm pretty sure Light wasn't named Kira for Sparkle but for Killer. But killer definitely wouldn't suit SEED/Destiny Kira at all. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 03:13
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NikkolasKing posted:So therewas a post forever ago in this thread or the one before it that said one translation of "Kira Yamato" is "Sparkle Japanman." It kind of does, though. I mean, most of SEED is about him struggling with piloting (and being) an ungodly-powerful death-machine.
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Mar 23, 2016 03:16
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starting watching victory and Marbet Fingerhat is the dumbest name since, well, Seabook Arno
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Mar 23, 2016 03:31
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i don't think kira means sparkle unless you repeat it like "kirakira," at which point you have the onomatopoeia for something shining/sparkling
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Mar 23, 2016 03:34
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