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sticklefifer posted:At no point was I rooting for her because her whole characterization was "I'm rich and mean and screw with people's lives because I'm bored". Except that was all just an act to attract Matt. Once it comes out she drops that aspect of her character completely apart from the brief interaction with the assassin at the airport. Harlock posted:I am just throwing a dart here but I think the future series schedule probably looks something like this: You're missing Luke Cage S2 
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Mar 21, 2016 20:14
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Captain Magic posted:Karen's editorial was truly terrible; clearly Bullseye will be doing The Bulletin a favor. Yeah, for someone with unusual context for understanding two different famous vigilantes, she sure did write 2000 words worth of meaningless platitudes. There's no way they won't do Bullseye next season though, right? He's got to be third down the list after Kingpin and Electra.
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Mar 21, 2016 20:16
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Harlock posted:I am just throwing a dart here but I think the future series schedule probably looks something like this: The Punisher, too. Or is that not happening after all? Lycus fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Mar 21, 2016 |
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Mar 21, 2016 20:19
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Harlock posted:I am just throwing a dart here but I think the future series schedule probably looks something like this: I'd fast track a punisher S1 somewhere in there.
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Mar 21, 2016 20:21
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marktheando posted:Whole season thoughts- I'll echo what others have said about the Punisher bits being really excellent. I was generally annoyed that they didn't put any effort into explaining the conflict between Matt and Foggy and Claire, but the larger problem was that it felt like two shows crossing into each other than one show with parallel storylines that affected each other.
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Mar 21, 2016 20:39
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I would doubt that the Summer would be over with out them announcing that they are making a Punisher Netflix series. Bernthal did such a excellent job it'd just be pissing away money not to do one.
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Mar 21, 2016 20:43
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I don't think I've seen an origin story that went as far to "earn" a supercharacter's iconography more than they did for Frank's skull. Better than "The S means hope on my home world" certainly.
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Mar 21, 2016 20:55
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Spergatory posted:Nailed it. You pretty much summed up my reaction to season 2. Upon reflection, even though i enjoyed both seasons, I think I prefer season 1 overall. Random impressions: Plusses: 1. The costume is much improved. I'm not sure what they changed but whatever they did worked really well. 2. Frank Castle was great and somehow managed not to oversell a pretty cliche character. 3. D'Onofrio owned every scene he was in and I love, love, love his portrayal of Kingpin. All the stuff involving the jail was awesome. 4. Elektra was fine and genuinely charismatic. Even though I never cared much for the character, the actress played her very well and I thought showed her seductive nature and explained her hold on Matt. 5. Most of the fight scenes were pretty good. The biker fight and the jail slaughter with Frank stand out as high points. Introducing new weapons for Matt was cool 6. I liked having more of the courtroom/lawyer stuff this time around and how the show demonstrated Matt's detachment, letting his office colleagues down and the distraction from his job, giving Foggy a chance to shine and to grow. 7. Karen branching out as an investigator was well handled and really made her character more interesting. 8. Charlie Cox is terrific as Matt. All the actors are really good. Rosario Dawson killed it too. 9. Good reveal at the end where Matt finally tells Karen what's up. 10. The newspaper editor got some more depth and was one of the better written characters in the show. J. Jonah Jameson with a heart. 11. There were a lot of really cool subtle moments: Frank seeming to recognize Matt's voice, Matt not defending himself against Kingpin in the jail, Wilson eating his jail dinner just like he used to eat his omelettes (only with a plastic knife and fork and a plastic cup full of wine) and a few other times where Matt had to remind himself to "remember you're blind" and act accordingly. Minuses: 1. Whoa man were there a few cheesy, eye rolling moments of dialogue and corny scenes. A lot of the Karen Page bleeding heart defending Frank stuff fell flat to me. It was like a conservative's idea of what a liberal sounds like. Her performance was fine but some of that writing was hard to take. 2. That whole mystical Ninja poo poo felt out of place. I know it's a part of the mythos but I never much cared for it in the comics either, for what it's worth. The blood tubes, the hole, the ninja army, the vessel/urn, allusions to resurrection...it was just confusing and cheesy. It brought the focus of the show out of kilter and brought it dangerously close to goofy, like parts of Kill Bill. Plus, it was never fully explained. 3. Do we have to have a full on kung fu fight scene every episode? It was overkill and a little redundant. Less fighting but with higher stakes would have been better. 4. I would have taken out The Hand and used Bullseye instead. Maybe let Melvin Potter be The Gladiator too if you need another villain. Have the Kingpin pulling both their strings. Maybe Wilson meets Bullseye in jail or something and arranges his release and also finds out Melvin is betraying him so he threatens Betsy and , since Melvin knows Daredevil and his weaknesses, it makes him more dangerous. That would have been more grounded and taken me out of scenes and plots less often. If you have to have ninjas, they could have used the Madame Gao character to orchestrate that. I seriously glazed over with the Stick/Black Sky/Elektra bullshit. 5. No Vanessa the entire season? Not even a cameo? She was great in S1. Even a glimpse of her - a scen or two - would have been nice. 6. Still pissed they killed Ben Urich. Seems like they could have left him alive. Instead, they just let Karen take over that role, leaving me to wonder what the point was in killing him off. 7. Matt's powers seem to come and go. As much as I hate the Affleck movie, one thing they did well was the radar, show how Matt "sees" the world and demonstrate how his blindness is often an advantage. Often, in this series, they seem to only bring out Matt's skills when it's relevant to the plot. I caught a few cool subtle allusions to Matt pretending to be blind - and they were nice - but I wish the show would focus more on Matt's perceptions - like struggling with his smartphone, not being able to discern colors and poo poo like that. 8. I didn't like the self contained arcs. I know others did and thought the pacing was better this time but I felt the opposite. Shows like the Sopranos and The Wire encourage addictive binge watching by ignoring cliff hangers and entire plot threads almost every other episode. This season felt like 3 distinct arcs - mini seasons - and I thought the show suffered for it. 9. The rooftop showdown should have ended with DD and Elektra about to be killed, after making their pact, only to have Frank mow down the Hand from across the street. Again, if they'd used Bullseye instead of The Hand, Elektra's death would have been much more dramatic and self contained. You could have accomplished the same dynamic by having Frank accidentally kill her in the firefight, bringing him closer into the mix, tightening his arc and creating more conflict; giving Matt another reason to hate him. Instead, Frank just stood on an opposite rooftop as a spectator and a cheerleader. 10. How the gently caress does Frank get around? Where does he get his money? He's a wanted terrorist and a fugitive on the run but seems to show up on every rooftop and moves around the city at will. Overall, it was good, but it needed a bit of tightening, plot wise. A more comprehensive (and SIMPLE) overlap between Frank, Wilson, Elektra, Matt and Karen would have helped the story a lot. The parts where the show did those things and kept the tension simple were the most interesting parts (Karen finding Elektra in Matt's bed, Frank and Wilson in the jail, Fisk adjusting and re-adjusting his level of power and control, Murdock and Fisk conducting an interview, Foggy knowing what Matt's doing but unable to say anything about it) Someone else said it suffered from "Spiderman 3 Syndrome" and that's about right. Except it was way better than Spiderman 3.
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Mar 21, 2016 20:56
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I thought it was head and shoulders above the first season myself, but I also think that comic stories improve dramatically once their settings mature and they add in more characters and dynamics.
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Mar 21, 2016 20:59
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Hollismason posted:I would doubt that the Summer would be over with out them announcing that they are making a Punisher Netflix series. Bernthal did such a excellent job it'd just be pissing away money not to do one. I'd be surprised if we get through April and they haven't announced that. They already indicated their interest in the concept...I assume they're waiting on viewer numbers and fan reaction to the character, both of which I imagine to be excellent. I just hope they don't feel held to NYC as a location, because they could send him anywhere. The Punisher in El Paso or Detroit or Baltimore would be great. Edit: BiggerBoat posted:Karen finding Elektra in Matt's bed... What I find off about that point of conflict is that Karen acted like she went over to Matt's and found him mid-bang after a candle-lit dinner. His apartment was a bloody mess, and in addition to the lady in his bed, there was a weird old blind man just kind of chilling out. When telling Foggy later, I'd probably have led with Stick...because who the gently caress is this ancient-looking blind man who answered the door and why did he have a loving sword? Xealot fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Mar 21, 2016 |
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Mar 21, 2016 21:00
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They fast tracked Daredevil Season 2 after the first season came out. We were not suppose to even get a Daredevil Season 2. So them fast tracking a Punisher series is totally possible. Frank tracking down and killing all 100 or so people apparently that were involved would be interesting.
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Mar 21, 2016 21:10
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Take The Hand, Stick, Black Sky and the Ninja stuff and move it into the Iron Fist and Dr. Strange shows where it belongs. Take the street level crime, the jailhouse dynamic and some of the courtroom stuff and cross it over into Luke Cage. Bring it back to Daredevil too. Kingpiin has a new assassin Have Luke and Danny start busting the same heads as Matt and then you can get Heroes for Hire, a public enterprise that basically does what DD does only in plain sight, set up in Hell's Kitchen, which naturally brings Matt into that mix and adds to the "Vigilantes, Good or Bad?" tension. You could even cross over some clients from Nelson and Murdock who want Danny and Luke's muscle after Neslon and Murdock left them high and dry and no other recourse. Add in some cops that hate/like what Luke and Danny (and DD) do and/or are corrupt. Mix in Fisk, Castle, Karen Page, the news reporter and (hopefully) Bullseye into all that and that poo poo writes itself. Luke, Danny, DD, The Punisher and Doc Strange are The Defenders. Xealot posted:I just hope they don't feel held to NYC as a location, because they could send him anywhere. The Punisher in El Paso or Detroit or Baltimore would be great. That's a rally good idea actually. He goes into hiding or in a WPP and gets relocated.
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Mar 21, 2016 21:16
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West Coast Punisher featuring She-Hulk, Moon Knight, and Ghost Rider 12 Marvel Shows a Year on Netflix
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Mar 21, 2016 21:24
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Stick just letting Karen into Matt's bedroom with Elektra there was probably the only time I laughed all season.
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Mar 21, 2016 21:35
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Harlock posted:West Coast Punisher featuring She-Hulk, Moon Knight, and Ghost Rider Netflix plz. Plz listen to this man
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Mar 21, 2016 21:36
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I've seen the hand hate a lot and I think they'd be an easier pill to swallow if show acknowledged the rest of MCU more. People need a reminder this show takes place in the same universe as alien gods. Also:BiggerBoat posted:If you have to have ninjas, they could have used the Madame Gao character to orchestrate that. Madame Gao is Chinese. Nobu is the head of the New York branch of the Yakuza that's basically an extension of the hand.
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Mar 21, 2016 21:36
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Harlock posted:West Coast Punisher featuring She-Hulk, Moon Knight, and Ghost Rider If they do a Phase 2 like Phase 1 it'll be up to 10. I don't see them slowing down anytime soon.
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Mar 21, 2016 21:37
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Madame Gao is way cooler and more interesting than Nobu though. Seriously, her one scene was one of the best of the season.
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Mar 21, 2016 21:38
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Captain Magic posted:Karen's editorial was truly terrible; clearly Bullseye will be doing The Bulletin a favor. yeah that was so bad. The editor dude is going to be so pissed.
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Mar 21, 2016 21:39
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nooneofconsequence posted:Stick just letting Karen into Matt's bedroom with Elektra there was probably the only time I laughed all season. Karen immediately jumping to they sexed conclusion was funnier. Despite both of them being clothed and Elektra being bedridden, they were obviously boning. Also an old blind man is in the next room because that's the kind of kink Matt is into.
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Mar 21, 2016 21:39
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BiggerBoat posted:Take The Hand, Stick, Black Sky and the Ninja stuff and move it into the Iron Fist and Dr. Strange shows where it belongs. Stick, The Hand and all the Ninja stuff belong to Daredevil like it or not.
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Mar 21, 2016 21:44
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Yeah it's been pretty funny watching so many people complain about magic ninjas in Daredevil.
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Mar 21, 2016 21:46
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A pivotal thing to understanding Karen this season is that she still hasn't told anyone about killing Wesley in season one, and so in a way, [not a spoiler, but tees up the way we're supposed to understand her sentiment in the season] she has taken the Frank Castle way instead of the Daredevil one. The actress pointed this out in the Google interview, and I did not put two and two together when I was watching the show, and I sure as hell can't imagine how the writers could expect me to.
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Mar 21, 2016 21:49
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I was totally down with the magic ninjas. Elektras opening episode was interesting, her Yakuza subterfuge stuff was pretty cool, Stick is a really fun character and was hype to see more, Nobus "There is no such thing" scene was fantastic and the giant hole was cool. Its just that all of that ended up being actually really stupid and none of the promises were followed up upon in any satisfying way and the ninjas were in every single episode while Punisher was twiddling his thumbs
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Mar 21, 2016 21:50
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Were all the ninjas zombies or just a few of them?
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Mar 21, 2016 21:51
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net cafe scandal posted:I was totally down with the magic ninjas. Elektras opening episode was interesting, her Yakuza subterfuge stuff was pretty cool, Stick is a really fun character and was hype to see more, Nobus "There is no such thing" scene was fantastic and the giant hole was cool. Its just that all of that ended up being actually really stupid and none of the promises were followed up upon in any satisfying way and the ninjas were in every single episode while Punisher was twiddling his thumbs Oh people are fine to not like it, I just mean it's like complaining Why's GI Joe fighting all these Cobras all the time. Probably, the Hand and other magic stuff is going to be in Iron Fist and Defenders as well, which is why it wasn't resolved. ufarn posted:A pivotal thing to understanding Karen this season is that she still hasn't told anyone about killing Wesley in season one, and so in a way, [not a spoiler, but tees up the way we're supposed to understand her sentiment in the season] she has taken the Frank Castle way instead of the Daredevil one. The actress pointed this out in the Google interview, and I did not put two and two together when I was watching the show, and I sure as hell can't imagine how the writers could expect me to. Well her and Matt had that huge argument where she was talking about "hey maybe sometimes it is ok to kill people" and he threw her out. They allude to it constantly.
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Mar 21, 2016 21:52
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Captain Magic posted:Karen's editorial was truly terrible Editor: I want you to write the truth. We've already got the facts, speak from the heart, give us truth. THAT is what I want to read! Karen writes her piece Editor: ....nevermind.... In all seriousness though, I thought her editorial wasn't very good but I really dug the mentor/protege relationship they've got going between her and the editor. It's just unfortunate that - much like House of Cards - they're crediting particular characters with amazing writing abilities and then when they have to demonstrate any of that actual quality writing it almost always falls flat. Polaron posted:So in hindsight, what was up with the timeline in this season? It started during a massive summer heat wave and ended around Christmas but it never felt like that much time was passing. Everything was quick quick quick. I never got the impression that Frank's trial lasted more than a week, and he escaped practically a day after arriving. The fight with the Hand over the last few episodes all seemed to take place over one or two nights I may need to go back to check, but it did look to me like the Punisher's face was completely healed up in his Steve Buscemi scene, which would suggest a significant amount of time had passed even from earlier in the episode?
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Mar 21, 2016 22:02
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ufarn posted:A pivotal thing to understanding Karen this season is that she still hasn't told anyone about killing Wesley in season one, and so in a way, [not a spoiler, but tees up the way we're supposed to understand her sentiment in the season] she has taken the Frank Castle way instead of the Daredevil one. The actress pointed this out in the Google interview, and I did not put two and two together when I was watching the show, and I sure as hell can't imagine how the writers could expect me to. Yeah, she's been on Frank's path ever since she popped Wesley. And if Frank's right that once you make that choice, once you decide to kill, you can never go back across the line. Of course one could argue that she shot Wesley in self-defense, and further that having watched Frank's path, particularly with the way he killed the Colonel after she begged him not to, Karen herself may decide to walk away from that path after all. Frank and Matt's main argument is over the necessity of hope and in who believes in the possibility of redemption and who doesn't. Matt may well be correct that you can come back from crossing the line, despite his failure to save Electra. Guess we'll see next season. Or, you know, forget all about season two's themes as Fisk burns down Hell's Kitchen and goes full Born Again on poor Matty. Maybe that. Hell, odds are Defenders will hit before Daredevil S3 so who knows what kind of state Matt and company'll be in by then? e: Jerusalem posted:Editor: I want you to write the truth. We've already got the facts, speak from the heart, give us truth. THAT is what I want to read! Eh, that's what a good editor is for...to take the new writer's rough iron and hammer it into steel. My first published piece was seriously rewritten by my editor, but once I quit being butthurt about it and really read the finished product I learned a lot about how to do the job. Hopefully Karen will learn that too. jng2058 fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Mar 21, 2016 |
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Mar 21, 2016 22:02
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I didn't mind the Hand and the ninjas, but they needed to go into more detail about what Black Sky actually was. It was way too vague. Do they mean that Electra is just an awesome killer, or does she have some sort of supernatural ability to wipe out a whole area if they do the right magic ritual? It was really strange to fully commit to the mystical side of the comic and then not actually explain anything mystical at all. Also I always find it funny when writers try to give examples of amazing writing and it comes across terrible. "My Book Report on the Punisher" by Karen Page, Age 8.
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Mar 21, 2016 22:06
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jng2058 posted:Eh, that's what a good editor is for...to take the new writer's rough iron and hammer it into steel. My first published piece was seriously rewritten by my editor, but once I quit being butthurt about it and really read the finished product I learned a lot about how to do the job. Hopefully Karen will learn that too. Well the suggestion was that what we heard was what was actually printed, I get the feeling the writers thought that what they had Karen write really was that good 
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Mar 21, 2016 22:12
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Gaunab posted:I've seen the hand hate a lot and I think they'd be an easier pill to swallow if show acknowledged the rest of MCU more. People need a reminder this show takes place in the same universe as alien gods. Nah it's mostly that it's not integrated that well and the Punisher stuff is much more interesting.
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Mar 21, 2016 22:13
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Jerusalem posted:Editor: I want you to write the truth. We've already got the facts, speak from the heart, give us truth. THAT is what I want to read! Good thing he never said he was going to pay her!
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Mar 21, 2016 22:14
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I thought it was really cool what they did with the autopsy scene, where they show a dead ninja having been previously dead. I thought they were going to reveal the reason Matt can't hear them is because their organs are removed, but later on he can hear them breathe so there went that cool little thing. Ah well.
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Mar 21, 2016 22:14
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zoux posted:Yeah it's been pretty funny watching so many people complain about magic ninjas in Daredevil. I think there are people in this thread who honestly think that when Punisher's not on screen, the other characters should be asking "Where's Punisher?"
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Mar 21, 2016 22:18
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Jerusalem posted:Well the suggestion was that what we heard was what was actually printed, I get the feeling the writers thought that what they had Karen write really was that good We hear her narrate it as she types it. That's her rough draft and you'll never convince me otherwise.
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Mar 21, 2016 22:18
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They really should have split this season up into 4 episode mini seasons released monthly. I think I would have enjoyed the Elektra stuff more if it wasn't directly after those first four fantastic punisher episodes.
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Mar 21, 2016 22:26
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Ugly In The Morning posted:They really should have split this season up into 4 episode mini seasons released monthly. I think I would have enjoyed the Elektra stuff more if it wasn't directly after those first four fantastic punisher episodes. You have that power my friend.
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Mar 21, 2016 22:27
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net cafe scandal posted:I was totally down with the magic ninjas. Elektras opening episode was interesting, her Yakuza subterfuge stuff was pretty cool, Stick is a really fun character and was hype to see more, Nobus "There is no such thing" scene was fantastic and the giant hole was cool. Its just that all of that ended up being actually really stupid and none of the promises were followed up upon in any satisfying way and the ninjas were in every single episode while Punisher was twiddling his thumbs The season felt highly disjointed to me; the new show runner really showed. It wasn't awful by any means, but it felt like "All the same great elements are here, but there's no order to it." It's like having a ton of the world's best musicians and then not having anything good for them to play. Punisher stole the show and what's more, that plot fit the original show. I realize the comics did the ninja stuff and the original season did as well, but it was incredibly goofy going from one insane ninja fight to "hundreds of ninjas appearing out nowhere" like it's some kind of 1980s action movie. The whole thing dragged the "gritty with a touch of mysticism and mostly focused on crime" show into the realm of cartoon land and I couldn't stop flashing back to the South Park ninja episode. That and the fact I called half the major events because they played SO close to the comics (and I don't even read Daredevil!) that drove me a bit nuts. Again I didn't hate the season. I agree Murdock is the most boring part of the show ironically, though, as his "We can't kill! We can't kill!" bit is getting absolutely hilarious when he routinely works with three varieties of murder-crazed people; he feels like the one straight edge kid at the party where everyone is getting black out drunk whining that people shouldn't drink, and it's kind of hilarious. That said I am glad to see the show itself did change over the court of the season, that was neat. All in all: Give us a drat Punisher show Marvel, and stop acting like it's not going to happen. Honestly I wish the entire season was woven to the Punisher plot and that's all; not just the character, but the story around him. ED: Also props to not neutering Castle. I kept waiting for him to get denied kill after kill but nope, they let him go hog wild and followed through on killing everyone I thought they might not. Again, the Punisher stuff was great. The writers are clearly more in their wheelhouse with gritty crime story type stuff.
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Mar 21, 2016 22:32
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Nipponophile posted:I think there are people in this thread who honestly think that when Punisher's not on screen, the other characters should be asking "Where's Punisher?" Look man I just wanted him to use that minigun stop making fun of me.
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Mar 21, 2016 22:33
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Nipponophile posted:I think there are people in this thread who honestly think that when Punisher's not on screen, the other characters should be asking "Where's Punisher?" I admit I liked (and was looking forward to) those parts the most. But it's not just that. The Punisher's story - a corruption arc and the gangs and the power vacuum left by Fisk, all of it - fit the original feel of the show, which was a crime show with superheroes in it (which is also why it drew comparison to TDK a lot). The ninja story feels like it was out of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. ONE episode, maybe two, with crazy fantastical poo poo really made the universe feel alive; tied to another show (*cough* Iron Fist) it might be fine too. But it is hard to take Daredevil's serious moments REMOTELY seriously when literally a hundred ninjas appear out of a shadow running in formation, then decide to just stand there pointing swords at the hero while a character gets the Sad Death Send Off (TM), then attack. It was clunky as poo poo with the tone of the Daredevil show. I do know it's from the comics. The scenes with Punisher and Fisk just had me going "Goddamn it, I really want a loving Punisher show now, and I don't even care of Kingpin is the main villain again in it, these two are awesome." A lot of the other stuff had me rolling my eyes a bit. Still, I didn't even hate the cheesy parts; they were fun in an 80s action movie kind of way. But the fights did start to feel like dance slap fights, when the original season put way, way, way more effort into depicting stamina (people staggering around and having trouble getting up, etc) than this season; even the Punisher fought less like a tank and more like a kung fu master against Daredevil. The prison fight was one of the best of the season as a result, it felt like a BRAWL, like the show used to. zoux posted:Yeah it's been pretty funny watching so many people complain about magic ninjas in Daredevil. I do get it's part of the character; it's just a totally different feel than the original show. That said I don't think that was the season's biggest problem. Season 1 was tightly plotted; it had a clear act structure, and every single episode pushed towards the end; the gangs falling one by one, the players being taken out, the master plan advancing. This season we didn't get a major plot until the last 4 episodes or so, and not a drat thing was explained. The original Black Sky/Stick episode was cool because it was mysterious. When your entire season's big threat is poorly explained (why were they digging those holes? What was with the zombie children? What could Elektra actually do as Black Sky?) and rushed in and lacks a real resolution beyond "we punched them all.." Also I love the cop ordering light on the roof so he could see what was going on up there and then nobody ever put any light on the roof nor did they see what was going up on there. Just a funny bit I noticed. Long story short it felt like they had a master plot going with the Castle story then left it incomplete to launch a Punisher show; then had half a plot for the second half of the season that was just plain incomplete, and it really broke the "one long movie" style and tension of the first season. Again I'm ranting a lot about a season that I did enjoy and I will sign up for a 3rd season, no question. Looking forward to it even. But it definitely wasn't quite at the same level. ED: The helmet design helped a ton though, glad Marvel was listening to feedback on that one. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Mar 21, 2016 |
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Mar 21, 2016 22:39
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