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Renaissance Robot posted:I can't even begin to picture what this means. Google search can help 
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Mar 23, 2016 19:33
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I'm finding lots of how-tos and not a lot about what the vacuum is, what makes it, why it needs to be "synchronised", what that even means etc. "Makes engine run good" isn't an answer to why either. Don't feel the need to explain if you don't want, my ignorance on the function of engines is probably too deep for it to be a quick fix 
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Mar 23, 2016 19:54
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Sure, FI is nice, but for budget beginner bikes it's not worth doubling your bike's price imho.
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Mar 23, 2016 19:56
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Renaissance Robot posted:I'm finding lots of how-tos and not a lot about what the vacuum is, what makes it, why it needs to be "synchronised", what that even means etc. "Makes engine run good" isn't an answer to why either. It's making sure each cylinder is drawing the same amount of air in on the intake stroke as a proxy for ensuring each cylinder is making the same amount of power. It's also yet another reason to love fuel injection (or v-twins).
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Mar 23, 2016 19:57
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goddamnedtwisto posted:It's making sure each cylinder is drawing the same amount of air in on the intake stroke as a proxy for ensuring each cylinder is making the same amount of power. It's also yet another reason to love fuel injection (or v-twins). Ahem. clutchpuck posted:People tend to forget EFI needs fiddling, too. Those throttle bodies need to be vacuum synced just like carburetors; every oil change on my wife's bike. EFI or a twin doesn't eliminate the need for fiddling with the intake balance. My wife's beemer is an EFI twin and it needs to be synced obsessively or it runs like lopsided garbage. What you really want is a single throttle body. Buell (Harley) supremacy.
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Mar 23, 2016 20:14
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clutchpuck posted:People tend to forget EFI needs fiddling, too. Those throttle bodies need to be vacuum synced just like carburetors; every oil change on my wife's bike. Is that a custom et setup or a high strung race bike? I feel like the answer is no, but have to ask. Vacuum adjustment is something that normally gets done once, at the factory.
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Mar 23, 2016 20:31
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That manometer pictured is a home-built job. It's just 4 vacuum gauges with valves fitted, and fuel or vacuum hose run to the vacuum test ports on the intake manifolds. It's a nice home-built tool, but still probably less than $50. Pretty much a must if you have a persnickety carbed I4. You can do it with two gauges, too, it just requires a little shifting things around as you adjust the synch screws. I think it's a misconception that it only needs to be done once. Any time you adjust your valves or do any carb work, it's gonna need to be synched again.
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Mar 23, 2016 20:36
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goddamnedtwisto posted:It's making sure each cylinder is drawing the same amount of air in on the intake stroke as a proxy for ensuring each cylinder is making the same amount of power. It's also yet another reason to love fuel injection (or v-twins). Thumper supremacy. Only one cylinder, QED all cylinders are most powerful cylinder and it never needs to be adjusted.
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Mar 23, 2016 20:46
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The vacuum is introduced as a function of the piston going down with the intake valves open, thereby drawing in air. With the butterfly valves (valves sitting in the intake tract that open and close to block air flow) closed, both in a fuel injected bike and on a carbureted bike, measuring the vacuum between the engine and the butterfly valve is a great way to tell if all of the butterflies are set to open at the same time and sit at the same position at idle. Extrapolating this out to wacky proportions, imagine if on your bike, as you opened the throttle half way, only the carb or throttle body on one cylinder opened, and the others only began to open after 50% throttle. This disparity between one cylinder and the others would cause one cylinder to be pulling at 50% throttle while the others are at idle, making next to no power. This of course would lead to power issues, along with issues with smoothness, efficiency, heat dissipation and wear. If you shrink this back down to realistic proportions it mostly means efficiency and smooth idle problems, along with stalling issues.
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Mar 23, 2016 20:50
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clutchpuck posted:Ahem. you sure it isn't just a BMW?
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Mar 23, 2016 20:57
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Nitrox posted:What bike is that? The answer is no, it's a herp-derpy 8000-max-rpm oilhead R boxer. Manual wants it every 6k miles. Nitrox posted:Vacuum adjustment is something that normally gets done once, at the factory. No. Most bikes with independent throttle bodies get them synchronized as regular ongoing service. ZX10R every 7.5k mi FZ09 every 10k or one year Street Triple R every one year Versys every 7.5k mi Ninja 300 every 7.5k It's stuff they do and not tell you about when you take it in for its semi/annual service or whatever. But it definitely gets done.
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Mar 23, 2016 21:06
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Thanks for the answers all, that explains a lot. I am sort of curious how the valves even get desynched in the first place/why they're not locked together; is it because carbs come as individual per-cylinder units that are bolted together, and bits just slip over time?
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Mar 23, 2016 21:08
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When I was a motorcycle mechanic I would push for people to get their TB's sync'd regularly. It certainly isn't going to hurt anything, unless you gently caress it up. I'd tell them, any time I have to pull the airbox off for anything, you might as well sync the throttle bodies. If it was a Japanese i4, and
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Mar 23, 2016 21:36
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Yeah you see a lot of "what is the symptom of tbs out of sync?" on the internet. There isn't really a noticeable symptom if you've been riding it, it'll gradually idle rougher and maybe make a little less power but you'll never notice it until you sync em up and the bike is glass smooth and you'd swear it's peppier.
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Mar 23, 2016 21:50
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Renaissance Robot posted:Thanks for the answers all, that explains a lot. Because even if the throttle bodies and valves are perfectly locked together, differences in how the engine wears, filtration weirdness, manufacturing differences in boot thickness, length/etc, tiny air leaks and other things can lead to different cylinders being unable to pull exactly the same vacuum as others. Remember, when you sync carbs or throttle bodies, you are not trying to make the butterflies the same, you're trying to make the vacuum the same, although modern manufacturing accuracy generally means that doing the latter naturally results in the former.
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Mar 24, 2016 00:37
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clutchpuck posted:Yeah you see a lot of "what is the symptom of tbs out of sync?" on the internet. There isn't really a noticeable symptom if you've been riding it, it'll gradually idle rougher and maybe make a little less power but you'll never notice it until you sync em up and the bike is glass smooth and you'd swear it's peppier. so that's the magic sauce they use that makes the bike feel just a bit better than when you brought it in for service.
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Mar 24, 2016 00:44
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You guys are trying to convince me to vacuum sync my fzr600. Maybe I should figure out the thread class and pitch of the screws on my intake boots and get to it..
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Mar 24, 2016 01:08
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XYLOPAGUS posted:You guys are trying to convince me to vacuum sync my fzr600. Maybe I should figure out the thread class and pitch of the screws on my intake boots and get to it.. Those are Mikuni BDS 32, right? You can do them with 2 cheap vacuum gauges, aquarium tubing, and mig welder tips. 0.020s, maybe?
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Mar 24, 2016 03:04
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GnarlyCharlie4u posted:When I was a motorcycle mechanic I would push for people to get their TB's sync'd regularly. It certainly isn't going to hurt anything, unless you gently caress it up.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:40
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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:Throttle bodies I dunno but when it comes to carbs, aside from BMW carbs, I feel the opposite. Bikes rarely go out of sync unless someone hosed with the sync. This applies to carbs which are racked together and are not adjusted with multiple cables, anyway. That's the ugliest part of dealing with vintage Goldwings - the Rube Goldberg linkage between two different pairs of carbs on either side of the engine. It's like trying to synchronize two separate p-twins to each other using rods, pivots, and wishes.
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Mar 24, 2016 03:51
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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:Throttle bodies I dunno but when it comes to carbs, aside from BMW carbs, I feel the opposite. Bikes rarely go out of sync unless someone hosed with the sync. This applies to carbs which are racked together and are not adjusted with multiple cables, anyway. In my experience carbs seem to go out of synch when you crash/drop the bike. I've only had one efi bike long enough to notice a drop off in smoothness and stuff from gradual desynchronisation (the hornet 900), it ran perfect when I bought it but after a year's worth of daily riding it started to run like a bag of poo poo at low revs. Synching it made it run perfect again. I had not dicked around with the TB's in any way shape or form in the interim so something must have been wearing/shifting. FWIW the throttle plates aren't adjustable relative to eachother, all you can do is adjust a screw on each TB which controls the mixture. I don't know if this is unusual or usual.
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Mar 24, 2016 05:58
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That's normal for fuel injected bikes
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Mar 24, 2016 08:50
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builds character posted:Thumper supremacy. Only one cylinder, QED all cylinders are most powerful cylinder and it never needs to be adjusted.
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Mar 24, 2016 13:23
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XYLOPAGUS posted:You guys are trying to convince me to vacuum sync my fzr600. Maybe I should figure out the thread class and pitch of the screws on my intake boots and get to it.. You do it with the bike running, so you probably just need a long screwdriver to get at the center carbs
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Mar 24, 2016 15:47
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HotCanadianChick posted:That's the ugliest part of dealing with vintage Goldwings - the Rube Goldberg linkage between two different pairs of carbs on either side of the engine. It's like trying to synchronize two separate p-twins to each other using rods, pivots, and wishes. I'm so triggered right now. Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:Throttle bodies I dunno but when it comes to carbs, aside from BMW carbs, I feel the opposite. Bikes rarely go out of sync unless someone hosed with the sync. This applies to carbs which are racked together and are not adjusted with multiple cables, anyway. With carbs it's a bit more of a pain in the rear end to do, depending on the bike. So no, that isn't generally done for free. (I do however include it as part of a carb clean.) However, basic rule still applies. I wind up at least touching it annually or anytime I do something like cam/ignition timing, valve work, etc... clutchpuck posted:You do it with the bike running, so you probably just need a long screwdriver to get at the center carbs Bingo. I think it needs to be 18" or something silly iirc. Harbor freight has an acceptable one in a pinch, but you can literally only use it for that. You'll break it trying to actually put any force through it.
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Mar 24, 2016 15:56
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Slavvy posted:I've only had one efi bike long enough to notice a drop off in smoothness and stuff from gradual desynchronisation (the hornet 900), it ran perfect when I bought it but after a year's worth of daily riding it started to run like a bag of poo poo at low revs. Yeah that's why most bikes' sync intervals are set at about a year. Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:Throttle bodies I dunno but when it comes to carbs, aside from BMW carbs, I feel the opposite. Bikes rarely go out of sync unless someone hosed with the sync. This applies to carbs which are racked together and are not adjusted with multiple cables, anyway. I had a Yamaha twin that wanted it every 4000 miles. Every time I did it, it was out of sync, and it was a racked set.
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Mar 24, 2016 16:19
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clutchpuck posted:I had a Yamaha twin that wanted it every 4000 miles. Every time I did it, it was out of sync, and it was a racked set.
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Mar 24, 2016 17:27
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Vstar.
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Mar 24, 2016 18:27
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GnarlyCharlie4u posted:Bingo. I think it needs to be 18" or something silly iirc. I've already got one of these because e60 M5 intake trumpet clamps made me buy one. Glad to know it's useful for something else too!
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Mar 24, 2016 21:55
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I'm probably showing my dumbness here but isn't the whole point of having MAFs in the intake path to sync the throttles every single time the engine turns? Otherwise you'd just have a single MAF somewhere in the airbox inlet.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:01
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Most bikes have a single maf in the airbox.
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Mar 25, 2016 20:48
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Yeah and I don't think I'm aware of any systems with fly by wire on individual throttle bodies that could do system wide sync on their own. Unless I'm just behind the times.
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Mar 25, 2016 22:38
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I'm going to check this F650 out after work today as a first bike. I'm licensed, so test ride is good to go, is there anything I need to keep an eye out for with these models? http://tinyurl.com/jv4yjel
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Mar 29, 2016 14:12
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Mistaken For Bacon posted:I'm going to check this F650 out after work today as a first bike. I'm licensed, so test ride is good to go, is there anything I need to keep an eye out for with these models? Oil and coolant changes are somewhat complicated compared to most bikes and require removal of parts of the faux-tank. Valve adjustments were too hard for me with my 2006 twin spark model, but I'm a noob at wrenching. Compared to my 1200 the 650 seems way more complicated maintenance-wise. The bike is fun but a bit boring, but can tool around on the highway and dirt/gravel and light mud just fine. Single cylinder is fun. Great commuter. Was my first bike and I still enjoy it- just put some hindenau k60 knobbies on it to do some more non-paved ~adventure~. Mine has a coolant leak from the pump (fixing soon) and the rubber stalks of the turn signals had rotted and become floppy so I replaced them all. There are crazy people who love these bikes and have documented everything you might ever want to know- read before buying: http://faq.f650.com/ There is a section on what to look out for on used ones I think. Parts/service can be a bit pricy especially at a dealer.
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Mar 29, 2016 14:44
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Ooh, thanks for that link, I'll check out the fluid change procedures. I'm pretty confident in my wrenching skills; enough to be dangerous, for sure. Edit: The bike was an obvious fixer upper, and the dealership was 'just trying to sell it at cost.' I saw the pads were shot, the water pump was weeping, broken engine guard, and the chain was super slack and the sprocket teeth had curled. It didn't seem unreasonable for a bike with 89,000 miles, and it was extremely comfortable and well mannered during my test ride, and I stopped a block from the dealership to give it one last once over. I didn't find anything wrong at this point, but when I take off again, the transmission sticks in but neutral every time I try to shift. Oh well. Mistaken For Bacon fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Mar 30, 2016 |
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Mar 29, 2016 14:52
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This bike just popped up on my local CL, anyone have any kind of input on it? Seems quite cheap for the mileage/condition. I'm assuming there are other underlying issues as to why it was garaged for a year and doesn't run, but lets just assume there isn't. If that was the case, what do you guys think it would cost to get it up and running? New battery I'm assuming, carb clean out, tank clean out, tires?
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Mar 30, 2016 09:03
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4.5k miles for an '07 bike is criminally low. Don't count on it having had any major service ever except perhaps the first (maybe). Total expenditure probably at least $3000* for the items you mentioned plus fluid replacement, engine inspection/tune, and anything else that might crop up. *ymmv by mechanic/parts shop Renaissance Robot fucked around with this message at 09:46 on Mar 30, 2016 |
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Mar 30, 2016 09:42
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Decent starter bike. They've been making them forever and just stopped recently. If it's been sitting for a year you'll need to at the very least replace the oil, gas, and clean the carbs. 200 - 250 for a set of tires. (Get the Pirelli Sport Demons) 50 - 75 for a battery depending on the type you get. Carb clean and the tank you can do on your own, if you pay for it depending on the shop prices near you add 300 - 500. Carb cleans, they generally charge you for the kits (25$ each) and then from there it depends on the shop rate. Around here it's almost 100$ an hour and they'll charge you about 1.5 to 2 hours per carb.(there's two on the GS500)
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Mar 30, 2016 09:55
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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:Yeah and I don't think I'm aware of any systems with fly by wire on individual throttle bodies that could do system wide sync on their own. Unless I'm just behind the times. My current bike (Monster 821) and last one (Shiver) had a MAF per throttle body and no requirement to sync in the service manuals. Of course it occurs to me now that this is probably just a v-twin thing.
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Mar 30, 2016 09:58
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I've sent the owner an email to ask about any other information, like why it's been sitting for a year and if there's any other damage from the fall that caused the front fairing crack/slight damage. I'm also cross shopping a 2007 Ninja 500 that has about 10k miles and all kinds of recent service history, fresh tires, etc that is up for sale for $2.3k and 100% ready to ride. I'm hoping to find something that I can get up and running for $2k-ish, 2.5 at the most. I'm relatively handy and I have a full set of tools, I do all the maintenance/work on my own cars for instance if that helps. So you think I'd possibly be able to clean the carbs and tank myself? Changing the oil would be no problem at all, I feel competent enough to change/lube a chain, I've seen that done before and it didn't appear too hard. Of course I cannot mount tires myself but I'm not 100% if that's a necessity yet. If I were to check it out and it doesn't appear to be seriously damaged in any major way and I toss him an offer of like $1300-1500, does that sound fair? If I obtained a new battery and took it over there to check the bike out, would it be worth it to see if the bike starts up or would that cause damage from sitting for so long? The only thing I don't really feel comfortable doing yet would be any kind of carb adjustments or engine tuning/valve adjustment type things, is that a real concern with a bike of such low mileage or should the cleaning be sufficient in most cases? I realize a lot of this is just hypothetical because you guys have not seen the bike in person and no one really knows the extent of anything, so I'm mainly just talking in general.
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Mar 30, 2016 10:10
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