|
homullus posted:I am looking forward to seeing what people come up with for what Takodana is even doing in the film, though -- the film's second act was the least good part (crossing into Actually Bad), and may as well have been a bunch of people standing around saying "Star Wars? Star Wars." They could have gone the prequel route instead and walked WHILE saying "Star Wars."
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 18:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 23:06 |
|
|
RBA Starblade posted:They could have gone the prequel route instead and walked WHILE saying "Star Wars." They would have been walking in a visually-distinct location that was also a film reference, though. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 18:42
|
|
|
homullus posted:They would have been walking in a visually-distinct location that was also a film reference, though. I don't know about visually distinct, but I admit I'll never stop laughing at the one shot SMG showed referencing some painting of Napoleon, except instead of Chancellor Sheev as Emperor Napoleon I it was Jar-Jar Binks. It's a pretty funny joke.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 18:44
|
|
|
Baron Porkface posted:There's more to a Star Wars Movie than the basic plot and it's accompanying visuals. They are part of a larger whole, and even if TFA was a good standalone movie it didn't have the sense of scale and intrigue that made the Star Wars setting more resonant than, say, the Starchaser setting. Have to agree to disagree then. I thought the sense of scale was perfect. I know there is more to a Star Wars movie than the basic plot, that is true of any movie and that is what I am pointing out that everyone else is missing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 18:45
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:Everyone the characters know will die if the Starkiller base is not destroyed, that is incredibly relevant. How? You said it yourself. The only reason the characters fear Starkiller Base is because it's a big scary weapon that can kill them and their friends. They're afraid because they might die. That's all. That's very shallow. There are no larger stakes, because the characters don't care about anything larger than themselves and their immediate circle of friends. Why do they care about the destruction of Hosnian Prime specifically, as opposed to any other random planet? Are we given any indication that any of the characters care about the Republic, or even democracy in general? What does Starkiller Base mean to them, other than "Danger, Will Robinson! Danger, danger!" In your mind, was that the only reason the original Death Star was scary? Because it killed people? The original Death Star was scary because it blew up Alderaan, which actually means something to the characters. It's Princess Leia's home. It's the intended end point of Luke and Ben's Jedi quest. It represents something tangible to the characters in the movie. When it suddenly disappears, it rips a hole in the plot like an open wound; it literally leaves the characters with nowhere to go, except to be sucked up by the Death Star. It's an actual loss, diegetically and exegetically. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Mar 24, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 18:57
|
|
|
Cnut the Great posted:How? You said it yourself. The only reason the characters fear Starkiller Base is because it's a big scary weapon that can kill them and their friends. They're afraid because they might die. That's all. That's very shallow. There are no larger stakes, because the characters don't care about anything larger than themselves and their immediate circle of friends. Why do they care about the destruction of Hosnian Prime specifically, as opposed to any other random planet? Are we given any indication that any of the characters care about the Republic, or even democracy in general? What does Starkiller Base mean to them, other than "Danger, Will Robinson! Danger, danger!" Did you miss the part where the Starkiller base was going to destroy the planet the resistance was stationed on? At that point it was the only place for the characters to go. A fight or die scenario doesn't seem very shallow to me.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 18:59
|
|
|
RBA Starblade posted:Rip R2, Leia, Friend Besto. (waggling hand) Ehhh
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 19:02
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:Did you miss the part where the Starkiller base was going to destroy the planet the resistance was stationed on? At that point it was the only place for the characters to go. A fight or die scenario doesn't seem very shallow to me. what? there are number of planets - (honian system+alderaan) that they could go to to escape the destruction. they had to go to starkiller base to "save" rey and to (sort of) end the movie with a death star explosion.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 19:05
|
|
|
Elfgames posted:what? there are number of planets - (honian system+alderaan) that they could go to to escape the destruction. they had to go to starkiller base to "save" rey and to No? It had already been established that there was really no where they could have ran. Wherever they went, the First Order would have tracked them down.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 19:06
|
|
|
Elfgames posted:what? there are number of planets - (honian system+alderaan) that they could go to to escape the destruction. they had to go to starkiller base to "save" rey and to I don't think hopping planets when the enemy has a laser shotgun planet destroyer is the wisest strategy to avoid getting blown up by said laser shotgun planet destroyer.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 19:07
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:No? It had already been established that there was really no where they could have ran. Wherever they went, the First Order would have tracked them down. Weren't they well hidden on D'Qar until they stupidly sent a recon ship to Starkiller Base that traveled directly back to D'Qar? Why couldn't they have found somewhere else and just learned their lesson about leading their enemy directly back to their base?
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 19:10
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:Did you miss the part where the Starkiller base was going to destroy the planet the resistance was stationed on? At that point it was the only place for the characters to go. A fight or die scenario doesn't seem very shallow to me. I asked you specifically what Hosnian Prime means to them. Why is the destruction of Hosnian Prime meaningful to the characters? As to your point, the Resistance itself doesn't mean anything to the characters. That's what I've been saying. That's actually not the only place the characters could have gone. As evidenced by the fact that all the main characters immediately leave to go to Starkiller Base--not because the Resistance is oh-so-meaningful to them and must be defended at all costs, but because they want to rescue Rey. If Rey had been carted off some other planet, would Finn still have gone to Starkiller Base? No, because Finn isn't motivated by his belief in the values of the Resistance. He's motivated by his concern for Rey. A fight or die scenario is, in fact, an incredibly shallow thing. It's the most basic kind of conflict that could possibly exist. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. Fight or die scenarios work very well as the basis for simple action films. But Star Wars has always striven for something a little bit more meaningful than that. In previous Star Wars films, the characters fought for beliefs, not just for survival.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 19:19
|
|
|
Cnut the Great posted:I asked you specifically what Hosnian Prime means to them. Why is the destruction of Hosnian Prime meaningful to the characters? Okay, but Finn isn't the only one that goes to the base. Han Solo and Chewbacca go to bring down the shield so the resistance could get in, the part about bringing Kylo back home was something Han and Leia worked out together, he had multiple objectives. Why would the resistance mean nothing to Han Solo? His wife (ex?) lead that thing. Each character had different reasons for being there.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 19:24
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:No? It had already been established that there was really no where they could have ran. Wherever they went, the First Order would have tracked them down. bullshit do you know how big a galaxy is? that's why they needed the map info, they knew nothing about the area luke was in.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 19:24
|
|
|
Elfgames posted:bullshit do you know how big a galaxy is? that's why they needed the map info, they knew nothing about the area luke was in. Luke just happened to be the only person good at hiding. He is the only Jedi left in the galaxy who has been shamed by his gay nephew, it was easy for him to find a good hiding spot.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 19:27
|
|
|
Neurolimal posted:I went through a pair in good detail a while ago, I promise that it will be the first scene I cover once the blu-ray is out. Been a few months since I last saw the film, and I'd rather not halfass it (and use purdy pictures)  They own, look at the little cup hes holding!!
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 19:31
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:Okay, but Finn isn't the only one that goes to the base. Han Solo and Chewbacca go to bring down the shield so the resistance could get in, the part about bringing Kylo back home was something Han and Leia worked out together, he had multiple objectives. Why would the resistance mean nothing to Han Solo? His wife (ex?) lead that thing. Each character had different reasons for being there. No, Han Solo doesn't really care about any of that. Not at first. Then he suddenly does, for some reason. Han Solo is also not the main--or even second-to-main--character of the film. Are you basically conceding that the Resistance doesn't mean anything to Rey and Finn? So the protagonist and deuteragonist of the film don't actually give a poo poo about the central conflict around which the entire film's story revolves--but at least Han Solo does, kind of, eventually. Jerkface posted:
Yes, and he's also quite obviously a stationary fixture that could never in a million years get up and start walking around like an actual living, breathing alien. That's because he's not real. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Mar 24, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 19:33
|
|
|
Cnut the Great posted:No, Han Solo doesn't really care about any of that. Not at first. Then he suddenly does, for some reason. There can be more then one main character. Han Solo was in four movies, how was he not central to the plot? Rey and Finn do care about the central conflict, but they have other matters that they care about too, and that does not in anyway lessen the plot of the movie. Maybe it does for you, but that's your own problem.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 19:35
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:There can be more then one main character. Han Solo was in four movies, how was he not central to the plot? Rey and Finn do care about the central conflict, but they have other matters that they care about too, and that does not in anyway lessen the plot of the movie. Maybe it does for you, but that's your own problem. Rey is indisputably a more central character to The Force Awakens than Han Solo is. It doesn't matter how many movies Han Solo was in. Rey is the main character of The Force Awakens, and it is a problem that she has no reason to care about anything that's going on beyond the fact that she's constantly being thrust into life-or-death situations. You say that Rey and Finn care about the central conflict. How are we shown that they care about it? Why do Rey and Finn believe in the Resistance's cause, enough to lay down their lives for it?
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 19:46
|
|
|
Cnut the Great posted:and it is a problem that she has no reason to care about anything that's going on Only to you. You're not understanding that Starkiller base doesn't need to physically go up to Rey and punch her in the left tit in order for there to be a conflict. Her attempt at escape is enough. None of the characters need to directly point at the camera and say that they care about a thing, it's not important that every single little detail is spelled out and given a purpose as it relates to the characters. You said there should be a bigger purpose outside of what the characters motivations are, and there absolutely is throughout the entire movie.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 20:32
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:Only to you. You're not understanding that Starkiller base doesn't need to physically go up to Rey and punch her in the left tit in order for there to be a conflict. Her attempt at escape is enough. None of the characters need to directly point at the camera and say that they care about a thing, it's not important that every single little detail is spelled out and given a purpose as it relates to the characters. You said there should be a bigger purpose outside of what the characters motivations are, and there absolutely is throughout the entire movie. Rey, Finn, and Han's story doesn't unfold any differently if Kylo Ren is just holding her in his garage instead of the Starkiller Base.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 20:43
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:Only to you. You're not understanding that Starkiller base doesn't need to physically go up to Rey and punch her in the left tit in order for there to be a conflict. Her attempt at escape is enough. She would have attempted to escape from any kind of imprisonment. Starkiller base is not special in that regard.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 20:43
|
|
|
Toilet Mouth posted:Rey, Finn, and Han's story doesn't unfold any differently if Kylo Ren is just holding her in his garage instead of the Starkiller Base. Does the Resistance, in this scenario, also blow up Kylo's garage? If so, why? Because the final scene, with the Starkiller Base breaking apart, determines how that last fight ends.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 20:45
|
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:She would have attempted to escape from any kind of imprisonment. Starkiller base is not special in that regard. It doesn't matter if it's special or not, it's what is there and it's central to the plot happening in the movie. Whether or not it is central to some or all of the characters doesn't matter. Toilet Mouth posted:Rey, Finn, and Han's story doesn't unfold any differently if Kylo Ren is just holding her in his garage instead of the Starkiller Base. But she didn't escape from a garage, she escaped from a solar system destroying super weapon.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 20:46
|
|
|
What if my head cannon doesnt come true?
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 20:47
|
|
|
thrawn527 posted:Does the Resistance, in this scenario, also blow up Kylo's garage? Sure, since they did the same thing at Maz's place.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 20:48
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:
Well... SuperMechagodzilla posted:This is actually an example of what I'm talking about, because you're jumping the gun. We begin the film with the "bigger, pointier" vehicle already in space. There's no salvation of the wreck, and it's not actually clear what the New Order stands for - even at the end of the film. You're missing the sequence of the images, and the progression of the narrative. We see the ship, and then we see a slightly older version of the same ship. SuperMechagodzilla posted:Exactly right. In response to someone saying a non-Lucas made SW film was good: SuperMechagodzilla posted:Well yeah, except for the part where it's significantly worse. SuperMechagodzilla posted:Force Awakens is definitely of the Sonic The Hedgehog school of hyperemotive, asexual teen intimacy. SuperMechagodzilla posted:The best part of TFA is when you realize that, without the rushed Starkiller Base subplot, there is no star war in the movie. SuperMechagodzilla posted:As has been pointed out, TFA is nonsatirical. There is nothing provicative about this pecking-bird effect. I mean, this could go on forever. I'm not angry or upset, I just felt like you were lying and went to check for myself. These were all taken from an ~20 day period that I clicked randomly in your post history. It's really sad that you can immediately hate a movie that emulates so many of the qualities you like in Lucas films.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 20:58
|
|
The movie has themes (e.g. feudalism), and it is complex. Complexity isn't as good as nuance though.
|
The main thing I'm getting from revisiting the film is that there aren't any new insights to be gleaned. There aren't any clever bits that I missed the first time around. I've mainly noticed is that there's a lot of whip-pans, I guess? Paying closer attention to the editing just confirms that shots are often pointlessly truncated. A given motion shot invariably cuts away before it settles into a composition, while the relatively still shots aren't anything to write home about. The film has a kind of twitchy restlessness, like it's being attacked by fleas. My eyes just glaze over when I watch the raptar attack or the car chase. There's no verisimilitude to, say, being attacked by a shoggoth. It's a reference to the concept of lovecraftian horror, without any actual horror. Rey believes the only friend she ever had just died, and now she is alone in a warehouse being chased by doom monsters. She has a brief look of mild concern. I said come in! posted:Only to you. You're not understanding that Starkiller base doesn't need to physically go up to Rey and punch her in the left tit in order for there to be a conflict. Her attempt at escape is enough. None of the characters need to directly point at the camera and say that they care about a thing, it's not important that every single little detail is spelled out and given a purpose as it relates to the characters. You said there should be a bigger purpose outside of what the characters motivations are, and there absolutely is throughout the entire movie. When Luke is pulled underwater by the garbage monster in A New Hope, it's a genuinely horrific moment because the character is just gone. Luke stood for the popular enthusiasm that fueled the rebellion, and now he's drowning in a tiny pool that suddenly opened up to become an infinite void. The raptar scene is just bizarre because let's break down what's happened there. Rey unleashes the raptars, ans they grab FN. She doesn't want to feel alone so she uses the security monitors to gain temporary omniscience and manufacture a 'lucky' outcome. Of course this is a metaphor for the Force. The entire scene, like many scenes, is about Rey fooling around 'behind the scenes' and causing weird stuff to happen. The scene is about watching indifferently as Rey is yanked to and fro by her caprice. Friendly Factory posted:Well... I didn't say, in any of those posts, that I hate the movie. It is competently made, but has flaws. It isn't as good as (most of) the others in the series but, in fairness, I do consider it to be slightly better than Return Of The Jedi. Jedi is very much 'the worst one.' It sounds like you want me to lie to you, and say that a film is extremely similar to the others and consequently good. I will not do that because I am an advanced chatbot, designed to write truthfully and accurately. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Mar 24, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 21:11
|
|
|
thrawn527 posted:Does the Resistance, in this scenario, also blow up Kylo's garage? If so, why? Because the final scene, with the Starkiller Base breaking apart, determines how that last fight ends. If Starkiller's only purpose is to break up Rey and Kylo, then it seems like the writers really took the long way around. I said come in! posted:It doesn't matter if it's special or not, it's what is there and it's central to the plot happening in the movie. Whether or not it is central to some or all of the characters doesn't matter. It's not central to anyone who we spend much time with, which isn't a problem in and of itself I guess, but the runtime spent on Starkiller probably could have been better spent elsewhere. The real reason Starkiller is there so that it can blow up the Republic and alter the status quo going into the sequels, but TFA shows absolutely no concern for the ramifications of blowing up the Republic, and that's kind of lovely. General Dog fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Mar 24, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 21:17
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:Rey believes the only friend she ever had just died, and now she is alone in a warehouse being chased by doom monsters. She has a brief look of mild concern. She doesn't believe Finn dies. We hear his voice echo through the corridors of the ship and Rey is using that to get an idea of which direction he might have been carried off to. It's a very intense sequence because we actually see Rey in a state of panic, she knows she has to quickly find him and find a way to free him or he is going to die.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 21:18
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:It sounds like you want me to lie to you, and say that a film is extremely similar to the others and consequently good. [insert glitch in the system joke here]
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 21:26
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:It doesn't matter if it's special or not, it's what is there and it's central to the plot happening in the movie. Whether or not it is central to some or all of the characters doesn't matter. Just as you said, it doesn't matter if the Starkiller base is special or not. What matters is that it happened to be where Kylo and his buddies took Rey. Starkiller base happens to be the planet busting super weapon that took out the Republic capitol in a spectacular shot. This fact is mostly not relevant.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 21:32
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:She doesn't believe Finn dies. We hear his voice echo through the corridors of the ship and Rey is using that to get an idea of which direction he might have been carried off to. It's a very intense sequence because we actually see Rey in a state of panic, she knows she has to quickly find him and find a way to free him or he is going to die. It's established that the monster kills people people almost instantly. You hear the intermittent faint screams of pain and horror from the other side of the building, punctuated by (for this film) lengthy periods of silence. Rey slows to a stop. This only makes sense if she believes that FN is in no actual danger, or - more likely - that she's just given up. Of course, 'realistically', FN is hosed. But Rey just sort of slows down and steps over to inspect some computer monitors. The sequence is about how things are not horrific because they are being treated as a videogame. Literally, FN is pulled away into the (tiny, monochrome) video image, and Rey presses buttons to manipulate this image. Seconds later, she's caught up with him again.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 21:33
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:The sequence is about how things are not horrific because they are being treated as a videogame. This is not how it happened at all.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 21:35
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:This is not how it happened at all. You're actually talking about what is happening rather than how it's happening. Like you're saying it's this intense scene because Finn is being slowly absorbed by the goo monster and Rey is frantic. That's on paper. The actual shot looks like this:  Rey is motionless, center of the frame, isolated in a fairly static composition. This shot lingers a while. The imagery is showing that she is powerless and alone. Of course the sound design also emphasizes her lonesomeness - the emptiness of the space around her. Everyone is gone. Even the monsters have abandoned her. Of course Rey's big 'thing' is her loneliness and her need to feel accepted. There's almost no attention placed on FN's life-or-death situation here. Rey's main concern is that FN might leave her, and that this will make her feel lonely.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 21:45
|
|
|
Also, she has realized that she forgot Jones the cat.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 21:49
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:Rey's main concern is that FN might leave her, and that this will make her feel lonely. Which is why she is desperately trying to find a way to save his life, she stops so she can listen to where his screams are coming from. This sequence was so obvious, I don't get how you are reading it the way you are.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 21:53
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:Which is why she is desperately trying to find a way to save his life, she stops so she can listen to where his screams are coming from. This sequence was so obvious, I don't get how you are reading it the way you are. Willful ignorance is quite the thing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 22:00
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:Which is why she is desperately trying to find a way to save his life, she stops so she can listen to where his screams are coming from. This sequence was so obvious, I don't get how you are reading it the way you are. The film doesn't do anything to convey desperation at that point. The camerawork is static. The character stops to call out "Finn... Finn?", rather softly. FN can be heard, but the sounds do not come from any specific direction, and it's clear that he's extremely far away. It is impossible for him to have heard her. He's gone. We then cut to a very brief but straightforward suspense sequence where everything halts and we see Rey concentrating on a computer screen. So we do have a frantic chase scene for a few seconds - but that is followed by a few seconds of quiet despair, a few seconds of suspense, and then a few seconds of comedy. My criticism is that the quiet despair and suspense parts don't quite 'work'. It's incongruous to focus on Rey missing her parents in the middle of the alien tentacle rape-death sequence. And the suspense part isn't suspenseful because what's at stake is merely Rey's feelings. The choice of putting the horror scene on a tiny video monitor also has the effect of making it unreal. You have the life-size Rey towering over the tiny video of FN, in a reversal of the Snoke scenes. It never looks like she's risking anything, or not in control. And the whole sequence breezes by in less than a minute. The trash compactor scene in A New Hope goes on for over 6 minutes. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Mar 24, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 22:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 23:06 |
|
|
I enjoyed Star Wars Seven overall but that monster scene on Han's ship really did not work for me.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2016 22:21
|
|
