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Looks to me like the focus tree doesn't support three mutually exclusive choices so it had to be split up that way. Authoritarianism is probably a better way to represent the dichotomy that then evolves into totalitarianism of right or left variety, as basically every power of the time was collectivist during the war by necessity, whether it be espousing the glory of the Aryan race or promoting the unity of the Empire or that everybody has a job to do in the American war effort, etcetera. I hope that both Spains get some interesting focus trees in future content updates or expansions, particularly Republican Spain trying to navigate its chaotic situation and deal with Soviet influence. Nationalist Spain could obviously have goals as part of the Axis or its historical neutrality.
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Apr 2, 2016 03:51
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Baronjutter posted:I swear paradox is just trolling leftists at this point. I'm surprised there isn't a "cultural marxism" event that hits if your country is too respectful of foreign cultures and immigrants. Have you seen this movie The Matrix? Hugely MRA, couldn't believe it!
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Apr 2, 2016 04:18
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Chief Savage Man posted:Nationalist Spain could obviously have goals as part of the Axis or its historical neutrality.
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Apr 2, 2016 06:42
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Eskaton posted:I like how everyone knew what Paradox meant with 'collectivism', but were just completely uneasy about the implication that radical ideological positions that kill millions of people may have some things in common. But if we're saying fascism is collectivist because it demanded subsumption of individual interests into a nation-state, basically every ideology is collectivist. Conscription and a war economy are pretty collectivist concepts! So is the collective punishment of strategic bombing
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Apr 2, 2016 09:20
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Paradox goons, I'd just like to say that you are all totally awesome for making the best grand strategy games in the solar system. I've been playing Paradox games since Vicky and HoI2 and have loved them all since (I actually still play HoI2 with Arsenal of Democracy mod every now and then). I stand ready to give you all my monies for Stellaris and HoI4. Also, though it's a bit dusty, here's my rad 2007 HoI2 medal: 
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Apr 2, 2016 09:40
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Enjoy posted:But if we're saying fascism is collectivist because it demanded subsumption of individual interests into a nation-state, basically every ideology is collectivist. Conscription and a war economy are pretty collectivist concepts! So is the collective punishment of strategic bombing Right, but if they're operating under a definition of collectivism where collectivism refers to valuing the success and prosperity of the group (in this case the nation) over that of the individual, it is then certainly the case that fascism is more collectivist than a country that's just running a war economy with conscription even if those two do lean in that direction, because those are facets as opposed to tenets. You could definitely make an argument that capitalist democracy is a collectivist ideology by pointing to how inequality is often justified by a higher average quality of life and a more powerful economy, but I think it's hard to argue it's more collectivist than fascism when a straight up central tenet of fascism is the importance of the nation superseding that of the individual. I do get where you're coming from though.
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Apr 2, 2016 09:42
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I'd say that if the fascists had won they'd probably claim they were individualists, because fascism allows the individual to use the will to power and each individual is capable of truly reaching their full potential as ubermensch. It's an arbitrary and silly dichotomy.
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Apr 2, 2016 09:59
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Gort posted:I'm thinking that the Industrial tree is going to be a first pick every time. It doesn't matter if you know how to make great CAS, or if you've gone communist or fascist - you're just not relevant if you don't have industry, and you're not going to get that in a timely fashion without the industrial tree. Yeah, especially with two extra research slots at the end, I also imagine that they will start adding more national threes with each patch like they did with the national ideas in EU4.
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Apr 2, 2016 10:20
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comaerror posted:Also, though it's a bit dusty, here's my rad 2007 HoI2 medal: That is a rad medal, I got one from beta testing HoI2, but somewhat ironically my family threw it out along with some other cool stuff after I moved to Sweden before I could ship my stuff over.
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Apr 2, 2016 11:03
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The Narrator posted:The less common/older usage of the phrase, I assume. It's the proper, original meaning of the term. Completely appropriate in a game about the USSR in the WWII era. You'd think the thread communists would know this.
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Apr 2, 2016 14:53
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Enjoy posted:But if we're saying fascism is collectivist because it demanded subsumption of individual interests into a nation-state, basically every ideology is collectivist. Conscription and a war economy are pretty collectivist concepts! So is the collective punishment of strategic bombing Well...yes. Concepts such as 'individualism' and 'collectivism' tend to be poorly defined, context-dependent and arguably even misleading. Even looking at it from a strictly sociological point of view, so-called Western individualism is ultimately dependent on strong institutions, a relatively well-functioning nation-state, rule of law, high levels of social capital and very specific collectively held (though thoroughly internalized) cultural values. It could not exist without these. Conversely, historical totalitarian regimes regardless of ideology have tended to disrupt or destroy existing social links, both the horizontal social networks and organizations that existed outside of the state and the involuntary bonds of family and clan, to replace them with top-down subservience to the regime. Any 'collectivism' under these circumstances was imposed and artificial, always under threat of coercion. I would not have used these terms to begin with, not because 'x is bad but y is good, why is x associated with y????' but because they are difficult to define in a consistent manner. Their popular definitions do not correspond 100% to the sociological ones, and the sociological definitions themselves become paradoxical once you dig a little deeper.
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Apr 2, 2016 15:28
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:I'd say that if the fascists had won they'd probably claim they were individualists, because fascism allows the individual to use the will to power and each individual is capable of truly reaching their full potential as ubermensch. It's an arbitrary and silly dichotomy. Why do you think the Nazi party in Germany was called National Socialist German Workers' Party?
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Apr 2, 2016 15:32
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Phlegmish posted:not because 'x is bad but y is good, why is x associated with y????' GaussianCopula posted:Why do you think the Nazi party in Germany was called National Socialist German Workers' Party? My main problem with this conception is that the Nazis and many other fascists didn't do much collectivising in the Soviet sense. In fact they privatised many state industries. http://www.ub.edu/graap/nazi.pdf http://www.ub.edu/graap/bel_Italy_fascist.pdf
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Apr 2, 2016 16:21
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As a leftist I'm absolutely outraged that thing I like is associated with thing I dislike. Could Paradox make their rightwing agenda any more obvious? smh
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Apr 2, 2016 16:32
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Enjoy posted:My main problem with this conception is that the Nazis and many other fascists didn't do much collectivising in the Soviet sense. In fact they privatised many state industries. You're using a purely economic definition, but there's nothing to indicate that that's what Paradox intended.
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Apr 2, 2016 16:36
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Magical Zero posted:As a leftist I'm absolutely outraged that thing I like is associated with thing I dislike. Could Paradox make their rightwing agenda any more obvious? smh That's not why I have a problem with it though Phlegmish posted:You're using a purely economic definition, but there's nothing to indicate that that's what Paradox intended. Because the sociological definition is too blurry, as outlined above
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Apr 2, 2016 16:36
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Enjoy posted:My main problem with this conception is that the Nazis and many other fascists didn't do much collectivising in the Soviet sense. In fact they privatised many state industries. Some academics like Ishay Landa also take the view that fascism was more closely associated with liberalism than with communism, especially in how they saw themselves as the last defenders of the bourgeois order (and were seen as such by a lot of industrialists/capitalists). Paradox is taking the Arendtian view as standard (and it's more popular in general so it's no surprise there are more people defending it in here). It's a pretty controversial issue all round, and it does seem like the best way to avoid this would be to just have three separate paths like you suggested, rather than to associate fascism with either communism or liberalism. I don't see why, mechanically, there would be an issue with making them three separate paths either.
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Apr 2, 2016 16:43
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Magical Zero posted:As a leftist I'm absolutely outraged that thing I like is associated with thing I dislike. Could Paradox make their rightwing agenda any more obvious? smh I love it when goons dont read a discussion just so they can toss in some weak one liner, it's the best.
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Apr 2, 2016 16:44
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Phlegmish posted:Well...yes. Concepts such as 'individualism' and 'collectivism' tend to be poorly defined, context-dependent and arguably even misleading. Even looking at it from a strictly sociological point of view, so-called Western individualism is ultimately dependent on strong institutions, a relatively well-functioning nation-state, rule of law, high levels of social capital and very specific collectively held (though thoroughly internalized) cultural values. It could not exist without these. GaussianCopula posted:Why do you think the Nazi party in Germany was called National Socialist German Workers' Party?
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Apr 2, 2016 16:52
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Hot Dog Day #82 posted:So would the federation, or whatever it is called in Starship Troopers, be a poor man's collective of sorts or some kind of limited democracy? All of the citizens pitch in and donate years of their lives to the central government in order to be given votes. No joke, my first game in Stellaris will be as the Federation, trying to find and exterminate every bug i can find
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Apr 2, 2016 16:54
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John Charity Spring posted:It's a pretty controversial issue all round, and it does seem like the best way to avoid this would be to just have three separate paths like you suggested, rather than to associate fascism with either communism or liberalism. I don't see why, mechanically, there would be an issue with making them three separate paths either. I see no problem with that. A literal third way would be better since fascism involves a fundamentally different view on society than both socialism and liberalism, which it rejected as sterile and materialist. A Buttery Pastry posted:Yeah, this is basically why I think Liberalism vs. Authoritarianism would be a better dividing line. Subservience vs. Liberty could work too. I feel like the people who are complaining now would not be fans of this solution.
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Apr 2, 2016 17:00
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Frionnel posted:No joke, my first game in Stellaris will be as the Federation, trying to find and exterminate every bug i can find Save that for when you're hired on as a QA tester
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Apr 2, 2016 17:08
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Just make a loving mod to change the ethos name, Jesus Christ. Or make it so that fanatic collectivism assures smiles and rainbows for everyone instead of famine and death camps.
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Apr 2, 2016 18:27
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Phlegmish posted:I feel like the people who are complaining now would not be fans of this solution. It's not great but it's more accurate. The biggest problem is that the name needs to be able to apply to both an individual's belief as well as the way that the government functions. I like the Heirarchial vs. Egalitarian choice of naming which has been suggested on the forums but it isn't anywhere near as snappy in spite of being a better representation of what the ethos actually means in game terms (focusing mostly on the slavery tolerance part) Randarkman posted:Or make it so that fanatic collectivism assures smiles and rainbows for everyone instead of famine and death camps. This is what actually happens, though. Fanatic collective pops don't dislike being slaves, and use less food, so they're both happy and more famine resistant!
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Apr 2, 2016 18:32
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RabidWeasel posted:It's not great but it's more accurate. The biggest problem is that the name needs to be able to apply to both an individual's belief as well as the way that the government functions. I like the Heirarchial vs. Egalitarian choice of naming which has been suggested on the forums but it isn't anywhere near as snappy in spite of being a better representation of what the ethos actually means in game terms (focusing mostly on the slavery tolerance part)
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Apr 2, 2016 18:35
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I wonder if there's a forum thread out there were they make fun of both the Paradox forums nationalists and these nonsense discussions by butthurt leftists. The fact that Paradox manages to upset both sides means that they're doing something right though.
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Apr 2, 2016 19:00
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RabidWeasel posted:This is what actually happens, though. Fanatic collective pops don't dislike being slaves, and use less food, so they're both happy and more famine resistant! In most cases it's the pops that are not fanatically supporting the collective regime that get sent to death camps.
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Apr 2, 2016 19:04
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Lord Tywin posted:I wonder if there's a forum thread out there were they make fun of both the Paradox forums nationalists and these nonsense discussions by butthurt leftists. The fact that Paradox manages to upset both sides means that they're doing something right though. Nonsense backed up by academic papers?
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Apr 2, 2016 19:04
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Paradox Grand Strategy: The Truth Is In The Middle
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Apr 2, 2016 19:10
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GaussianCopula posted:In most cases it's the pops that are not fanatically supporting the collective regime that get sent to death camps. I'm talking about Stellaris specifically where there is nothing game-mechanistically making "collectivist death camps" a thing. I am kind of annoyed about this because of the number of posts I've seen on other forums along the lines of "woah these guys are evil commie gulag masters because their ethos game effect has the word slavery in it, and the glorious  free market is an objective good". Yes I'm getting mad about other peoples' headcanon and I'm a lovely baby for it but come on. If the ethos was more appropriately named it wouldn't be a problem.A Buttery Pastry posted:I think we're talking about HoI? Though the issues are similar. I was replying to the post immediately above mine, assuming that it referred only to Stellaris given the use of the word Ethos. I'm not really interested in HoI4, my small amount of enthusiasm for it was crushed by Stellaris being much more my type of game and setting. Chief Savage Man posted:Paradox Grand Strategy: The Truth Is In The Middle Furthermore, Liberalism must be destroyed 
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Apr 2, 2016 19:50
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Paradox Grand Strategy: A Randian Reading of the Crowning of Charlemagne
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Apr 2, 2016 19:52
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RabidWeasel posted:I was replying to the post immediately above mine, assuming that it referred only to Stellaris given the use of the word Ethos. I'm not really interested in HoI4, my small amount of enthusiasm for it was crushed by Stellaris being much more my type of game and setting.
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Apr 2, 2016 20:41
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I sincerely hope that the paradox devs have created a drinking game based on how butthurt they can make their fans based entirely on insignificant details with no bearing on gameplay whatsoever.
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Apr 2, 2016 21:02
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What are some cool countries to play in the divergences mod for vicky2?
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Apr 3, 2016 00:03
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Day 1 mod changing the ethos localization to things like: Male -- Female Black -- White Left -- Right Tall --- Short RTS --- Turn Based NATO -- Icons
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Apr 3, 2016 01:28
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Fintilgin posted:Day 1 mod changing the ethos localization to things like: Fanatic NATO, White: Paradoxian Grognarchy.
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Apr 3, 2016 01:57
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Fintilgin posted:Day 1 mod changing the ethos localization to things like: Right -- Left, surely.
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Apr 3, 2016 02:00
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Fintilgin posted:Day 1 mod changing the ethos localization to things like: *adds to my paradox forums sig*
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Apr 3, 2016 06:03
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RabidWeasel posted:Furthermore, Liberalism must be destroyed This should be a cheevo in Vicky 3.
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Apr 3, 2016 06:19
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Re-watching some Blorg videos. Where exactly is cKnoor from? I've been trying to figure out his accent (as a non-British person) for ages.
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Apr 3, 2016 07:11
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