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thrawn527 posted:I have to think there are better places to send her to than a dessert wasteland where she has to fend for herself, as a child. In Rey's vision she is about to be killed by a masked figure when Kylo Ren rescues her, then she stares at Kylo standing in a field of bodies—most likely Luke's students, killed while he was away. If I had to put money on it, I'd guess that Kylo was supposed to kill her when he attacked the academy, but instead he spared his cousin. He may not have wanted to murder one of Anakin's heirs, even if he despised her for displacing him from the Skywalker succession. He took Rey and dumped her on that backwater shithole Jakku, but he told his First Order friends that he totally iced the girl. This would neatly wrap up a whole bunch of issues. Rey gets left with Unkar Plutt instead of a responsible adult because the family that abandoned her (and notice it's "family," never "parents," that Rey is waiting for) was her evil cousin. At five years old or so, she's too young to fully understand what has happened, and she takes him at his word when he says he and the rest of her family will come back for her one day. She may not yet have learned her parents' names, only thinking of them as "mother" and "father." Kylo might also have messed with her memories to make her forget her parents' names and possibly even her own. That way, she doesn't go blabbing to everyone about who she is. Luke and Rey's mom don't go looking for her because they believe she's dead. Losing his only daughter at the hand of his nephew drives Luke into terrible depression, explaining why he considered himself a failure and gave up on training new Jedi. That's a difficult plot development to swallow, given Luke's characterization and the place he was at by the end of RotJ, so it's stronger if the loss he feels is as personal and as devastating as possible. Han, Leia, and Chewie don't recognize Rey because they know that Luke's daughter died when she was a little girl—but I think Han and Leia eventually come to suspect something is up. (Maz to Han: "Who's the girl?" <immediate cut away>; Leia sends Rey and not herself to find her brother and get him to come home.) euphronius posted:The one hole is all of this and almost an inexcusable hole is that Kylo didn't recognize her. There's a chance that he actually might have. Remember that Rey was last seen when she was five years old. But for some reason, Kylo is extremely upset to hear that some random girl was seen with BB-8 on Jakku. Later, he catches her in the forest on Takodana. [I'm going to cite the novel here because it fleshes out Kylo's thoughts some more and gives him some extra lines.] TFA Novelization posted:“Something.” He sounded mystified. “There is something…Who are you?” His instincts tell him that this girl is very important, and even after looking in her head he doesn't quite believe that she's just some rando. But at the same time, if Kylo thinks Rey is Luke's daughter, it would be no good to spell it out for her—that might make her aware of her own power. Indeed, once they're back at Starkiller Base, Rey's connection to the force awakens and she defeats him in a mental duel. TFA Novelization posted:“There was as much curiosity in Supreme Leader Snoke’s voice as there was disappointment. “This scavenger—this girl—resisted you?” Methinks Kylo Ren doth protest too much. If Kylo does know who Rey is, well, it wouldn't be good for him if his master found out. And he cares about her in spite of himself. Zoran fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Apr 5, 2016 |
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Apr 5, 2016 20:18
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Friendly Factory posted:Maz may have never met her. But Han absolutely knew who she was and you'd have to be paying zero attention to not realize this. She tells him her name and he's all "Rey..." and looks mysterious. Plus when Maz asks who she is it cuts away, implying that Han knows and tells her off-screen. Chewie and R2 probably know too, but how would we know that? Which begs the question: Why does the movie withhold this information about Rey's lineage from us? How does this decision strengthen, rather than weaken, the story? If we knew Han represented the last concrete link to Rey's longed-for family, just as Ben Kenobi did for Luke, than the strong relationship that's supposed to have developed between the two of them in the course of a couple of hours would have been a lot more believable than it was, and Han's death would have meant a lot more to Rey. Rey's quest for Luke would also be more meaningful. If true, the only reason I can think of for this information not being included is so J.J. could add more "mystery" to the proceedings and leave more unanswered questions to serve as sequel hooks. After all, J.J. is on record as feeling those were some of the best parts of the original 1977 Star Wars. You know, like remember how, after Star Wars, everyone couldn't wait for the sequel so they could finally get some answers about who Luke's father was and what happened to him? Oh wait, no. Because the movie told us: He was a Jedi Knight; Ben Kenobi was his best friend; Darth Vader betrayed and murdered him. The only reason we know, in retrospect, that those were incomplete answers is because we later got more complete ones. There was never any mystery. That's not why people wanted to find out what happened next. But apparently, according to J.J., one of the main things that makes the original Star Wars so great is the fact that we don't really know who Bail Organa is or what the Clone Wars were. Mystery box!
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Apr 5, 2016 20:21
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Zoran posted:In Rey's vision she is about to be killed by a masked figure when Kylo Ren rescues her, then she stares at Kylo standing in a field of bodies—most likely Luke's students, killed while he was away. If I had to put money on it, I'd guess that Kylo was supposed to kill her when he attacked the academy, but instead he spared his cousin. He may not have wanted to murder one of Anakin's heirs, even if he despised her for displacing him from the Skywalker succession. He took Rey and dumped her on that backwater shithole Jakku, but he told his First Order friends that he totally iced the girl. This would neatly wrap up a whole bunch of issues. This is all very good, and is what I'm going with, for now.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:22
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No he would have recognized her and her he during the mind rape scene. I don't accord the novelization any weight. Edit Or are you saying he did recognize her. No. Smoke would have figured that out. Or did he. Argh. euphronius fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Apr 5, 2016 |
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Apr 5, 2016 20:32
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Cnut the Great posted:Which begs the question: Why does the movie withhold this information about Rey's lineage from us? How does this decision strengthen, rather than weaken, the story? If we knew Han represented the last concrete link to Rey's longed-for family, just as Ben Kenobi did for Luke, than the strong relationship that's supposed to have developed between the two of them in the course of a couple of hours would have been a lot more believable than it was, and Han's death would have meant a lot more to Rey. Rey's quest for Luke would also be more meaningful. My best guess is that Han doesn't know, he just has this weird feeling. Like Rey reminds him of Luke's little girl a whole awful lot. And Rey doesn't meet Leia, who might actually be able to sense who she is through the Force, until the very end of the movie. As for how that narrative choice improves the story, I think J.J. probably wanted to give Rey's reunion with her dad as much emotional weight as possible—both for her and for the audience. It's a decision that may or may not be vindicated by Episode VIII. Honestly, I think it's a really odd choice to cut the Rey-is-Luke's-daughter reveal from this film. My pet theory is that Felicity Jones's character in Rogue One will end up being Rey's mother. Otherwise, that particular side story is a strange choice for the first ever live-action film outside the main episodic sequence. No one was clamoring for a film of how the Death Star plans were stolen, after all. But if it's an introduction to Rey's mom, then that adds to overall story: it shows us who she was as a character in her own right. When Rey talks to her dad and inevitably asks about her mother, then we in the audience already know her and will hopefully care about that character's fate.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:40
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Luke can't be having a girlfriend until after ROTJ.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:41
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euphronius posted:No he would have recognized her and her he during the mind rape scene. Pretty much any scenario explaining how Luke's daughter ended up on Jakku will have a little bit of tortured logic. It's a weakness of the decision to keep her (and us) in the dark about her heritage. If Luke or Rey's mom left her there, then they're god-awful parents, and I think that's a really bad direction to take Luke's character in. If Kylo did it, then it's strange that he didn't know who she was immediately, but at least that's easier to hand-wave—he didn't want to believe she had resurfaced, or he didn't want to come right out and say what he suspected, or Rey was resisting his mind rape better than he or she thought, or he did such a good job changing her memories that even he didn't recognize her 14 years later, or whatever. euphronius posted:Luke can't be having a girlfriend until after ROTJ. Of course. They won't meet in Rogue One. The point of the film would be to give her a cool and important backstory independent from Luke—to make her something more than his offscreen baby mama. Zoran fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Apr 5, 2016 |
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Apr 5, 2016 20:44
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iSheep posted:http://www.ew.com/article/2016/04/05/star-wars-force-awakens-jj-abrams-kylo-ren-ashes Booooooo Also blu-ray in today but I'm going to see a different movie at the theater so...tomorrow I guess.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:47
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thrawn527 posted:He wasn't doing a very good job, considering she has to literally scavenge for parts in order to not starve to death. Eh I'm not sold on it but keep an eye on her like the way Ben kept an eye on Luke. Like just barely. Someone had her hand when her family flew off.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:59
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hhhat posted:Eh I'm not sold on it but keep an eye on her like the way Ben kept an eye on Luke. Like just barely. Someone had her hand when her family flew off. Pretty sure that was Unkar Plutt.  And Luke didn't just have Ben watching over him, he also had Owen and Beru. Who took way better care of him than Plutt seems to have taken care of Rey.
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Apr 5, 2016 21:06
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hhhat posted:Eh I'm not sold on it but keep an eye on her like the way Ben kept an eye on Luke. Like just barely. Someone had her hand when her family flew off. That was Unkar Plutt's hand. The scrap dealer guy.
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Apr 5, 2016 21:06
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hhhat posted:Someone had her hand when her family flew off. Pretty sure it's Unkar Plutt. Other goons have theorized it and it's somewhat obvious it's him from the fat sausage fingers holding onto her arm during the force flashback. edit: SUPER BEATEN LIKE WHOA.
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Apr 5, 2016 21:06
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Is Unkar Jakku for Uncle?Cnut the Great posted:Which begs the question: Why does the movie withhold this information about Rey's lineage from us? How does this decision strengthen, rather than weaken, the story? If we knew Han represented the last concrete link to Rey's longed-for family, just as Ben Kenobi did for Luke, than the strong relationship that's supposed to have developed between the two of them in the course of a couple of hours would have been a lot more believable than it was, and Han's death would have meant a lot more to Rey. Rey's quest for Luke would also be more meaningful. Yeah, that's an incredibly bizarre sentiment considering Star Wars was not only made to stand alone, it actually functions as a full story, we get all of Luke's journey from farm boy to hero. TFA is a disjunctive mess even without that comparison, but looks really bad when you do hold it up to the original. Also I started reading Twilight, and whoever said Rey was Bella was spot on, "Ugh, I'm smarter and better than everyone else, but I have to keep myself in this hell. Oh hey, someone sexy with dark powers, I want that!"
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Apr 5, 2016 21:08
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Zoran posted:I think that's a really bad direction to take Luke's character in. Someone else said it earlier, but that's likely how the heroes of this trilogy will end up at the beginning of the next as well.
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Apr 5, 2016 21:11
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I really hope Rey isn't related Skywalker or any other Jedi and that she wasn't left on that planet as part of some plan. Perhaps Luke had a vision that a girl named "Rey" would save the galaxy and confided to Han.
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Apr 5, 2016 21:40
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Can't believe I didn't notice this exchange earlier:computer parts posted:It would be an interesting twist if neither Luke nor Rey knew that he was her father, but Kylo found out somehow. homullus posted:A necrophiliac Luke would definitely be a daring direction (and it's not really necrophilia if she wasn't actually dead), but I still don't see Disney going that way. 
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Apr 5, 2016 21:45
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My favorite part of the documentary so far is finding out what Mark Hamill was doing at the table read.
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Apr 5, 2016 22:30
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Would it be thematically interesting and narratively feasible for Rey to be the child of ones of the Knights of Ren, who for some dumb reason is present with Kylo and the Knights of Ren when they go on their Gavrilo Princip mission? Once Rey's parent is killed by a jedi in the assault, Kylo doesn't know what to do with her and dumps her on Jakku? Thus he is somewhat aware of who she is and his anger at discovering her identity is still justified as his revelation of an unforced error on his part.
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Apr 5, 2016 23:56
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People, people, Luke didn't leave Rey alone on Jakku. Unkar Plutt is the mother.
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Apr 6, 2016 00:00
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jivjov posted:My favorite part of the documentary so far is finding out what Mark Hamill was doing at the table read. Me too. It's not like he had any actual lines to read so he had to do something while he was there.
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Apr 6, 2016 00:13
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Reading narration/scene descriptions in his best Joker voice.
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Apr 6, 2016 00:23
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Jewmanji posted:Would it be thematically interesting and narratively feasible for Rey to be the child of ones of the Knights of Ren, who for some dumb reason is present with Kylo and the Knights of Ren when they go on their Gavrilo Princip mission? Once Rey's parent is killed by a jedi in the assault, Kylo doesn't know what to do with her and dumps her on Jakku? Thus he is somewhat aware of who she is and his anger at discovering her identity is still justified as his revelation of an unforced error on his part. While it's not exactly conclusive, the figure seemed to be in the same kind of un-uniform outfits the rest of the knights were wearing, leading me to read that scene as Ren killed one of the knights who was attempting to kill Rey.
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Apr 6, 2016 01:44
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MonsieurChoc posted:Oh man, what if they get Ian McDiarmid back as a Force Ghost tyring to turn her to the Dark Side? That idea is too good for this world.
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Apr 6, 2016 01:46
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Obviously we weren't going to get a Star Wars movie that didn't leave plot hooks for sequels. ANH was self contained by necessity. edit; although it is grating knowing we're never going to reach an end to these stories. It's going to be like the MCU where it just goes and goes with no end in sight. No satisfying conclusion to the story like we got with the OT and PT. Yaws fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Apr 6, 2016 |
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Apr 6, 2016 01:49
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The jedi order ignores Anakin's desire to save his mother from slavery. Luke, as the new jedi order, ignores Rey's desire to reunite with her parents/family. It's like poetry.
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Apr 6, 2016 02:11
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PBS Newshour posted:That idea is too good for this world. Can Sith even force ghost in Disney-canon?
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Apr 6, 2016 02:18
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Is there an extras feature that is the full table read? Or just that 2 min short about it that comes with the iTunes version?
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Apr 6, 2016 02:22
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Cheesus posted:That scene in Rey's vision, someone raises a club toward her and is stabbed through the chest by Ren's lightsaber. Well, the concept of "Rey's perspective" in that vision isn't to be taken too literally- she wasn't on Cloud City, the sequence with her and Ren in the forest doesn't play out like that, she sees herself as a child in the third person, etc. It's a whole bunch of muddled ideas. Some of those POVs could be Luke's, for instance.
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Apr 6, 2016 02:27
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Wank posted:Is there an extras feature that is the full table read? Or just that 2 min short about it that comes with the iTunes version? That was it. Sadly. I really wanted to hear Hamill read the whole crawl.
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Apr 6, 2016 02:32
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Hans death scene is really good in rewatch. I enjoy that ren walks out in the bridge for absolutely no reason. It sets up great cinema.
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Apr 6, 2016 02:33
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AndyElusive posted:Can Sith even force ghost in Disney-canon? That depends. What would make the fans happiest? Yaws posted:Obviously we weren't going to get a Star Wars movie that didn't leave plot hooks for sequels. ANH was self contained by necessity. There's nothing wrong with having sequel hooks. But they should have some justification for existing apart from the fact that they're hooks for sequels. There doesn't seem to be any reason for leaving some of these things unexplained in TFA. It really feels like J.J. just passing the buck to the next director. Leaving things mysterious and unexplained is way less work, and entails less creative risk, than actually taking on the responsibility of coming up with satisfying answers to things. This is a weakness of J.J.'s that has plagued him throughout his career. None of the other Star Wars movies had this problem to such an extent. You wanted to watch the next movie to find out what happened next in the story, not to find out what the gently caress actually happened in the previous movie.
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Apr 6, 2016 02:39
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Yaws posted:Obviously we weren't going to get a Star Wars movie that didn't leave plot hooks for sequels. ANH was self contained by necessity. Why do you need sequel hooks for Star Wars? It's Star Wars, people are going to show up.
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Apr 6, 2016 02:40
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Well Rey not knowing who she is is important to her and we share in that. It's not totally pointless.
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Apr 6, 2016 02:44
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euphronius posted:Well Rey not knowing who she is is important to her and we share in that. It's not totally pointless. Her arc is about letting go of the past though, so leaving her childhood a mystery (especially when it will probably be revisited in the near future) is kind of detrimental to that theme.
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Apr 6, 2016 02:47
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euphronius posted:Well Rey not knowing who she is is important to her and we share in that. It's not totally pointless. Does Rey not know who she is? She's clearly old enough to remember in the flashback.
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Apr 6, 2016 02:48
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He's passing the buck to Rian Johnson because that's what Rian Johnson asked for. Jj has stated that Rian asked him to include certain plot elements so he can just get right too it. I'm assuming the Rey element was one of those things. I know they added the Luke ending so Rian didn't have to make that a plot element. Now they can just get on with it.
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Apr 6, 2016 02:49
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Toilet Mouth posted:Does Rey not know who she is? She's clearly old enough to remember in the flashback. It's not really a flashback and could not be true. But anyway yeah it's all really weird right?
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Apr 6, 2016 02:49
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Cnut the Great posted:That depends. What would make the fans happiest? Eh, I get what you're saying and you're probably correct but personally I sorta dig filling in the blanks in my (blank) head. Like when I watched ANH and I imagined what the Clone Wars were and Lukes dad being a bad rear end star pilot. Or what the relationship between said dad and Obi-Wan was. It was fun. TFA reminded me of that. It's a simplistic and childish way to view a movie 
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Apr 6, 2016 02:52
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I feel pretty safe in guessing that if Rey has Skywalker DNA, then she wasn't conceived through conventional means. I can't see them telling us, "Luke had a wife/gf but you never met her and never will, so don't worry about it, also he's a deadbeat dad."
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Apr 6, 2016 02:55
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euphronius posted:Well Rey not knowing who she is is important to her and we share in that. It's not totally pointless. Yeah, but she's going to find out who she is eventually. That's going to be part of the story one way or the other. So why can't she just find out over the course of the first movie? If they'd taken a different tack with the story in the first movie, it maybe wouldn't be a problem. But as it stands, us not knowing anything about Rey renders a bunch of the films' important emotional and thematic dynamics frustratingly opaque, for (IMO) little dramatic benefit. CelticPredator posted:He's passing the buck to Rian Johnson because that's what Rian Johnson asked for. Jj has stated that Rian asked him to include certain plot elements so he can just get right too it. Well, if true, then that was a bad decision on Rian's part. Why end the movie on a dramatic meeting between Luke and the hero if you're not going to do the heavy lifting establishing why your central character should even care about him at all? If you don't have time for that, just introduce him in the second movie. TFA's story ostensibly revolves around a search for Luke Skywalker--and one assumes this is in part a metaphor--but we don't end up learning basically anything about who Luke Skywalker is or what he means to the characters. Everyone just kind of seems to desperately need him for vague reasons, even though he apparently kind of sucks a lot. Then at the end of the second act everyone on both sides seems to come to some mutual agreement to just put the whole vitally important Luke issue on the back burner for a little while, on account of J.J. and Kasdan not having enough time to figure out how to smoothly integrate the obligatory Death Star homage into the main narrative. This creates a major problem, because the explosive, action-packed climax doesn't even remotely resolve anything having to do with what the movie's story is actually about. So instead, at the last minute before the movie ends, Artoo just suddenly wakes up and provides a magical resolution for the heroes. Victory! It was a hard-fought struggle, but in the end it turns out all the heroes had to do was run out the clock on the movie's two-hour run time. Truly, after this long and meaningful cinematic journey, we now know just who Luke Skywalker really is. It's all part of the beautiful filmic metaphor that is Disney's The Force Awakens. I'm not sure exactly how it is, but believe you me, I'm going to figure it out.
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Apr 6, 2016 03:40
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