USPOL April: An outline of Reagan's face appears. She screams.

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boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

Talmonis posted:

In what way does this counter the problem of concentration of behaviorally and emotionally disruptive children being concentrated in poor, urban schools (again, I say concentrated, because they're everywhere, the rich schools just shuffle them elsewhere)? Disruptive children need actual supervision and help, not just spread out to do less damage to more people. My solution would be more highly structured schools specifically for kids with behavioral and emotional issues. And yes, that would cost a lot of money. But it's needed.

Yes, a slower learning student does benefit from mixed classes with more advanced ones, that isn't very controversial.

i too wonder how breaking up concentrations of thing counters the problem of concentration of thing

if there is a critical mass of problem, one way to deal with problem is to disperse problem

# ? Apr 5, 2016 20:28

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 20:01

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

Litany Unheard posted:

That's triple the median household income. That's WAY above "middle class."

that's not how middle class works :sigh:

# ? Apr 5, 2016 20:28

Aves Maria!: Jul 26, 2008; Maybe I'll drown

Talmonis posted:

In what way does this counter the problem of concentration of behaviorally and emotionally disruptive children being concentrated in poor, urban schools (again, I say concentrated, because they're everywhere, the rich schools just shuffle them elsewhere)? Disruptive children need actual supervision and help, not just spread out to do less damage to more people. My solution would be more highly structured schools specifically for kids with behavioral and emotional issues. And yes, that would cost a lot of money. But it's needed.

The gently caress does this have to do with busing, unless you're suggesting that the majority of students are behaviorally and emotionally disruptive in poor, minority school districts? You specifically stated that busing does essentially nothing but desegregate schools which is false on its face and is the claim that I responded to, not wherever you're going with busing not solving the problem of disruptive students. The draw of busing is that it would provide a great opportunity to advance achievement in your average schoolkid from a poor district while having little impact on those rich kids that get bused into the poor schools.

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

that's not how middle class works

I know this is kind of your thing, but at some point you're going to have to accept that the technically correct definition of "middle class" is basically not used by anyone.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 20:31

Wicked Them Beats: Apr 1, 2007; Moralists don't really *have* beliefs. Sometimes they stumble on one, like on a child's toy left on the carpet. The toy must be put away immediately. And the child reprimanded.

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

that's not how middle class works

It's more that the term as a whole is meaningless because everyone has their own definition. I've seen people in both the bottom 10% and top 10% of earners proudly proclaim themselves to be middle class.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 20:32

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

fishmech posted:

No, crazy coloradoan, I said that being racist and assuming busing exposes people to violence is racist.

You said that being willing to send students to schools with poor nonwhites is bad parenting. That is extremely racist. Again: you are refusing to admit that when you start busing and mixing up social classes, you no longer have violent schools.

Actually it's not bullshit. "Shuffling around" students works extremely well, the only reason it gets stopped is because of the racism of people like you.

Putting rich students into schools in poor areas does not punish the rich students, unless you're a racist/classist who thinks that being around people who are unlike you is a punishment. You really love openly telling us about how you can't stand the idea of being around non-whites and non-rich, it's weird!

The facts show it works. The only other thing that works is those break up existing physical segregation by getting people to move around, which is a lot harder.

No, you said this. I (again, for the third time) said that parents of any race wouldn't want their children in a violent situation. A violent situation that you, Fishmech, YOU yourself proposed by mocking the idea of "widdle precious white angels" being knifed in schools if there are shootings a few blocks away. You mocked the idea of a parent being afraid for a child's safety in a neighborhood with common shootings. Seriously, don't have kids.

"People like you" are why we have Republicans in power across the country, causing these issues to be almost impossible to fix.

And yes, forcing (which is what you're proposing) students from one area to go to another school, that is underperforming compared to their home, out of your ideology is in fact, a punishment that does in fact cause (mild) harm to their education. You should bear that conclusion with pride if you believe in what you're proposing.

You're projecting again. I've never once said I don't like being around non-white or non-rich people. In fact, I'm rather comfortable where I am; in my majority black workplace making a middle class wage.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 20:34

Aves Maria!: Jul 26, 2008; Maybe I'll drown

Talmonis posted:

And yes, forcing (which is what you're proposing) students from one area to go to another school, that is underperforming compared to their home, out of your ideology is in fact, a punishment that does in fact cause (mild) harm to their education. You should bear that conclusion with pride if you believe in what you're proposing.

Are taxes a punishment? Is affirmative action punishing white people? What is the definition of a "punishment" in your mind?

# ? Apr 5, 2016 20:37

Rhesus Pieces: Jun 27, 2005

"Middle class" = not a fuckup clinging to the absolute bottom-rung but not a ballin' multimillionaire yet so there's room to improve.

Also one who feels extremely put upon and gets all the political lip service and attention one could ever want.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 20:40

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

Talmonis posted:

And yes, forcing (which is what you're proposing) students from one area to go to another school, that is underperforming compared to their home, out of your ideology is in fact, a punishment that does in fact cause (mild) harm to their education. You should bear that conclusion with pride if you believe in what you're proposing.

the alternative here is to consign some children to be sacrificial lambs to maximize the public good given to others. i dont consider that to be fair or equitable, given that people make this exact same argument (taking MY taxes and giving to other districts hurts my children!) as to why we can't do the better but far more difficult and in many places legally prohibited solution of normalizing funding

# ? Apr 5, 2016 20:41

Uranium Phoenix: Jun 20, 2007; Boom.

Talmonis posted:

This is your claim, not mine. Your racist statement of parents fearing for their "precious widdle white angels" when there are gunshots two blocks away was rebuked and you're throwing a tantrum about it. As I said then, and now, no parent of any race wants their children to be around violent areas.

I think your solution is bullshit. Shuffling around problem children will not solve the problem of poor schools performing badly. It's not a magic bullet. The best thing that busing does, is make children integrate with other races better. Which though positive, is not the solution to the problem above.

Only you have said this. I said that putting rich students into lovely schools would only punish the rich students (the very idea that the presence of these rich kids would suddenly make said school better is comical). You inferred that meant white and black. Fine and good, as far as statistics go, but it's on you to then claim it's due to racial mixing.

Busing and integration has been proven to work.. That was linked earlier in the thread, but it's really worth reading/listening to. Spreading out poor minority students to rich white schools does more than just promote understanding and lessen racism--though it does that too. It provides students with all of the benefits that come with the school: better/experienced teachers, better curricula, better materials (textbooks, computers, etc.), more support, a better learning environment, more rigorous programs, and more. In the case study in my link, parents claimed their kids would be exposed to violence, disruption, etc., but they weren't. Educational outcomes were improved for all students. The evidence overwhelming supports that integration works, and has a huge positive effect.

Talmonis posted:

In what way does this counter the problem of concentration of behaviorally and emotionally disruptive children being concentrated in poor, urban schools (again, I say concentrated, because they're everywhere, the rich schools just shuffle them elsewhere)? Disruptive children need actual supervision and help, not just spread out to do less damage to more people. My solution would be more highly structured schools specifically for kids with behavioral and emotional issues. And yes, that would cost a lot of money. But it's needed.

Yes, a slower learning student does benefit from mixed classes with more advanced ones, that isn't very controversial.

By spreading students out to good schools, they do get more support. Every school has support programs, and by spreading out students, more students get more intensive support. They get far better help than if they are all concentrated in a single school, and support staff are totally overwhelmed. Teachers also have an easier time; 2 disruptive students is easily managed. 10 is a nightmare. I can say that from experience. With supports, severe problems can have a 1:1 para who helps them in the classroom--something poor schools absolutely cannot afford. You have your armchair solutions, but I don't think you're actually familiar with the evidence of what works and what has the best outcomes.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 20:42

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

Talmonis posted:

In what way does this counter the problem of concentration of behaviorally and emotionally disruptive children being concentrated in poor, urban schools (again, I say concentrated, because they're everywhere, the rich schools just shuffle them elsewhere)? Disruptive children need actual supervision and help, not just spread out to do less damage to more people. My solution would be more highly structured schools specifically for kids with behavioral and emotional issues. And yes, that would cost a lot of money. But it's needed.

Yes, a slower learning student does benefit from mixed classes with more advanced ones, that isn't very controversial.

They end up not concentrated, because busing explicitly destroys concentration. What aren't you getting, exactly?

Talmonis posted:

No, you said this. I (again, for the third time) said that parents of any race wouldn't want their children in a violent situation. A violent situation that you, Fishmech, YOU yourself proposed by mocking the idea of "widdle precious white angels" being knifed in schools if there are shootings a few blocks away. You mocked the idea of a parent being afraid for a child's safety in a neighborhood with common shootings. Seriously, don't have kids.

"People like you" are why we have Republicans in power across the country, causing these issues to be almost impossible to fix.

And yes, forcing (which is what you're proposing) students from one area to go to another school, that is underperforming compared to their home, out of your ideology is in fact, a punishment that does in fact cause (mild) harm to their education. You should bear that conclusion with pride if you believe in what you're proposing.

You're projecting again. I've never once said I don't like being around non-white or non-rich people. In fact, I'm rather comfortable where I am; in my majority black workplace making a middle class wage.

Yes I said the thing that you said, when you said I must make a bad parent because I'd let my children go to school with people who aren't white or rich. When are you going to understand that by forcibly integrating schools, they stop being violent? Parents who think their kids will get hurt because the school's in a bad (read: not lovely white suburbia) area are racist and deserve to be mocked.

No, anti-racists are not why Republicans in power. Racists like you have revealed yourself to be are why.

This does not punish the students. Unless you believe that having to be around non white non rich people is punishment.

This is not projection, it's literally what you are saying. You keep repeatedly saying that it's bad to have people mix in school.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 20:43

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Lotka Volterra posted:

The gently caress does this have to do with busing, unless you're suggesting that the majority of students are behaviorally and emotionally disruptive in poor, minority school districts? You specifically stated that busing does essentially nothing but desegregate schools which is false on its face and is the claim that I responded to, not wherever you're going with busing not solving the problem of disruptive students. The draw of busing is that it would provide a great opportunity to advance achievement in your average schoolkid from a poor district while having little impact on those rich kids that get bused into the poor schools.

This is a fair point, as well.

I'm arguing with PTD primarily, and making GBS threads back at Fishmech while doing so. PTD proposed that the violence problem in poor school districts is due to a concentration of behaviorally and emotionally problematic kids that aren't able to move away due to poverty. I agree with him, but disagree that the busing is the solution. See above. Fishmech is just a prick who gets off on trying to play holier than thou and you should ignore my responses to him in regard to the topic at hand.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 20:44

Raerlynn: Oct 28, 2007; Sorry I'm late, I'm afraid I got lost on the path of life.

menino posted:

I think this is the problem with many policy arguments in our society: we are willing to view substantial gains for a large impoverished minority as not worth it if it results in even the slightest downside for our ~~in-group of choice~~ personal interests.

Welcome to the human condition in a nut shell. Good politicians align events such that it is in your best interests to support their goal. This is the basics of change - you have to frame your change in such a way to compel people to act in support of your platform. If you aren't doing that, don't be shocked that there people who currently benefit from the system fight against that very same system.

It's not right. It's not moral. But it is rational once you realize that most people on this planet are only going to actually do something when it directly benefits them or people they care about.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 20:45

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

Talmonis posted:

This doesn't solve the problem though, it spreads it out. If that's fine by you, OK, but you're going to understandably piss off a lot of parents in the new host districts by saddling them with (more) problem children. Those kids still will be problems wherever they end up, and still need additional help and better structured education (while being prevented from causing problems for other students).

uh the problem is the concentration of trouble students, not the fact that trouble students exist. one trouble student in isolation doesn't exude a cloud of Negative Academic Achivement that drops maluses on all students within 30 feet, trouble students are able to bounce off each other and disrupt classes in groups. these problems are social, and changing the social context through dispersion is absolutely a way to fix this problem

you're kicking the can to a solution which is much more difficult to pull off, because it's easy to handwave and say "well when the utopia comes we can provide lavish funding to all school districts" when the easier solution is to, you know, spread around what we've allocated this year, in reality

# ? Apr 5, 2016 20:47

Uranium Phoenix: Jun 20, 2007; Boom.

Talmonis posted:

This doesn't solve the problem though, it spreads it out. If that's fine by you, OK, but you're going to understandably piss off a lot of parents in the new host districts by saddling them with (more) problem children. Those kids still will be problems wherever they end up, and still need additional help and better structured education (while being prevented from causing problems for other students).

Do you think that a good, rich school has a better structured education than a bad, poor school?
Do you think that good, rich schools have no problem kids and no programs to help them? What do you think schools do with students who have severe behavioral or emotional problems? Do you have any idea?
What percentage of a poor school's kids have severe behavioral or emotional problems? You seem to assume it's an awful lot of them.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 20:48

menino: Jul 27, 2006; Pon De Floor

Raerlynn posted:

Welcome to the human condition in a nut shell. Good politicians align events such that it is in your best interests to support their goal. This is the basics of change - you have to frame your change in such a way to compel people to act in support of your platform. If you aren't doing that, don't be shocked that there people who currently benefit from the system fight against that very same system.

It's not right. It's not moral. But it is rational once you realize that most people on this planet are only going to actually do something when it directly benefits them or people they care about.

I think the difference is in the degree. People can and do agree about fairness when it comes to policy, what differs is their idea of who 'us' and 'they' are.

E: Also in response to Talmonis, spreading the problem around actually does solve many social problems, whether or not that can apply to kids with behavioral issues is not a given.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 20:49

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

Talmonis posted:

I'm arguing with PTD primarily, and making GBS threads back at Fishmech while doing so. PTD proposed that the violence problem in poor school districts is due to a concentration of behaviorally and emotionally problematic kids that aren't able to move away due to poverty. I agree with him, but disagree that the busing is the solution. See above. Fishmech is just a prick who gets off on trying to play holier than thou and you should ignore my responses to him in regard to the topic at hand.

i specifically said that violence was a red herring meant to distract from deeper anxieties about a poor academic environment and, perhaps even deeper, racial mixing

Talmonis posted:

This doesn't solve the problem though, it spreads it out. If that's fine by you, OK, but you're going to understandably piss off a lot of parents in the new host districts by saddling them with (more) problem children. Those kids still will be problems wherever they end up, and still need additional help and better structured education (while being prevented from causing problems for other students).

I'm arguing with PTD primarily, and making GBS threads back at Fishmech while doing so. PTD proposed that the violence problem in poor school districts is due to a concentration of behaviorally and emotionally problematic kids that aren't able to move away due to poverty. I agree with him, but disagree that the busing is the solution. See above. Fishmech is just a prick who gets off on trying to play holier than thou and you should ignore my responses to him in regard to the topic at hand.

Spreading out the problem literally solves the problem. The studies prove this!

You sure are showing me by being mad racist! Boy don't I look silly for pointing out your racism! :rolleyes:

There are only three ways to fix the problem - forcing people to move so busing is unnecessary, ending the existence of neighborhood schools to create much larger all over schools and busing. Of the three, busing is by far the easiest in most cases. Having all over schools is generally impractical without a lot of money, due to needing to massively expand certain schools to serve as the new pk-3 for all of the town/city, etc. And forcing people to move ain't legal.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 20:51

Uranium Phoenix: Jun 20, 2007; Boom.

quote:

What�s really likely to propel integration programs politically, however, is not the benefits to low-income students but the emerging evidence on the benefits of integration to middle-class and white students. The Century Foundation report by Wells, Fox, and Cordova-Cobo finds that �the benefits of K�12 school diversity indeed flow in all directions.� As higher-education leaders have long recognized, �diversity makes us smarter.� The authors write: �Researchers have documented that students� exposure to other students who are different from themselves and the novel ideas and challenges that such exposure brings leads to improved cognitive skills, including critical thinking and problem-solving.�

There�s growing consensus among young middle-class and white parents that their children will better learn how to navigate an increasingly diverse nation if they attend diverse schools. Ninety-six percent of major employers, the researchers note, say it is �important� that employees be �comfortable working with colleagues, customers and/or clients from diverse cultural backgrounds.� Meanwhile, Wells, Fox, and Cordova-Cobo cite one poll finding that 77 percent of Millennials expressed a preference for urban life, suggesting an embrace of diversity not evident among older generations of whites who decamped to homogenous suburbs.

Report in question: https://tcf.org/content/report/how-racially-diverse-schools-and-classrooms-can-benefit-all-students/

Academician Nomad fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Apr 5, 2016

# ? Apr 5, 2016 21:00

Raerlynn: Oct 28, 2007; Sorry I'm late, I'm afraid I got lost on the path of life.

menino posted:

I think the difference is in the degree. People can and do agree about fairness when it comes to policy, what differs is their idea of who 'us' and 'they' are.

Absolutely. The problem is when you get in those disagreements and we have renowned shitposters making blanket claims about what is or isn't fair. It's easy for us on Something Awful to say "You family, must bus your child(ren) to this school that's in danger of losing its credentials for the sake of the poor despite having one of the best schools in the state just up the road from you," because I guarantee you that neither you nor I are making that sacrifice. The family that is however, is likely going to have some objections, and hand waving that away is at best naive.

This forum is awful quick to volunteer someone or something else takes the hit for the team when it comes to ideological purity, and then they wonder why their proposals fall apart in the real world.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 21:00

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Lotka Volterra posted:

Are taxes a punishment? Is affirmative action punishing white people? What is the definition of a "punishment" in your mind?

Depends, but no for the purposes of this topic. No. Punishment in the case of busing, is sending a promising student (likely white due to demographics, but could be anyone) to a worse school (likely minority-majority) to raise the performance of said school. Now, this kid will receive less support in a worse envirionment with more disruption than they would in their chosen district. That's a punishment that does harm the education of that child more than if they were not forced to go to a worse school.

Uranium Phoenix posted:

By spreading students out to good schools, they do get more support. Every school has support programs, and by spreading out students, more students get more intensive support. They get far better help than if they are all concentrated in a single school, and support staff are totally overwhelmed. Teachers also have an easier time; 2 disruptive students is easily managed. 10 is a nightmare. I can say that from experience. With supports, severe problems can have a 1:1 para who helps them in the classroom--something poor schools absolutely cannot afford. You have your armchair solutions, but I don't think you're actually familiar with the evidence of what works and what has the best outcomes.

My school district, though a good one by numerical standards, didn't have the kind of money needed to 1:1 problem kids. They send the worst of them to special classes, which helps the rest of the school by their very absence. I can't imagine having ten in a grade, let alone per classroom.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 21:04

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

Talmonis posted:

It depends on the student. We had to isolate quite a few in our district, as they would disrupt any class they were a part of, alone. How do you deal with that sort of person, long term? You can't just do the current "just pass them and get them out of here" that goes on today. They need a proper education that they're incapable of receiving in the current structure.

I'm not kicking the can down the road, I want more funding now, not later. I don't see special education schools as a bridge too far.

i just dont see your argument as all that credible if it boils down to "busing is too unpopular and ineffective, what we need to do is raise taxes and redistribute local educational funding"

# ? Apr 5, 2016 21:07

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

quote:

Depends, but no for the purposes of this topic. No. Punishment in the case of busing, is sending a promising student (likely white due to demographics, but could be anyone) to a worse school (likely minority-majority) to raise the performance of said school. Now, this kid will receive less support in a worse envirionment with more disruption than they would in their chosen district. That's a punishment that does harm the education of that child more than if they were not forced to go to a worse school.

Elaborate on "Depends, but no." What about the students who remained at the white school, they're statistically receiving an even better education with black students being bussed in, are they not punished by the status quo?

Talmonis posted:

My school district, though a good one by numerical standards, didn't have the kind of money needed to 1:1 problem kids. They send the worst of them to special classes, which helps the rest of the school by their very absence. I can't imagine having ten in a grade, let alone per classroom.

What is your professional education experience? You're advocating against the literal solution to this problem.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 21:13

JeffersonClay: Jun 17, 2003; by R. Guyovich

The IMF continues to abandon its 90's and 00's positions on austerity, government spending and growth.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/christine-lagarde-minimum-wage_us_5703c7f1e4b0daf53af0d8ff

quote:

The U.S. should increase the federal minimum wage, expand a key tax credit for low-income workers and enact more �family-friendly� policies if it wants to boost the economy, Christine Lagarde, the managing director of the International Monetary Fund, said Tuesday.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 21:14

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

Talmonis posted:

You really don't think that forcing kids to go to a different school wouldn't be seen as worse than raising taxes and having better distribution of school funding? That sort of argument makes no sense to me. But again, I'm not a Republican who would flip their poo poo at the idea of either.

if we weigh the relative unpopularity of busing versus raising local taxes and forcibly redistributing tax revenues across jurisdictional lines, i absolultely 100% think that the former is more palatable than the latter. busing has actually been enacted in many places. normalizing educational expenses per student is rare

e: a common reason for incorporation in modern days i.e. the creation of entirely new jurisdictions and potentially brand new school districts is to create a legal justification to hang on to more local tax revenue for "public services" typically education

boner confessor fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Apr 5, 2016

# ? Apr 5, 2016 21:20

Epic High Five: Jun 5, 2004

JeffersonClay posted:

The IMF continues to abandon its 90's and 00's positions on austerity, government spending and growth.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/christine-lagarde-minimum-wage_us_5703c7f1e4b0daf53af0d8ff

Another fine right wing organization succumbs to Big Pope

Smh

# ? Apr 5, 2016 21:27

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

JeffersonClay posted:

The IMF continues to abandon its 90's and 00's positions on austerity, government spending and growth.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/christine-lagarde-minimum-wage_us_5703c7f1e4b0daf53af0d8ff

holy poo poo :drat:

that overton window tho

# ? Apr 5, 2016 21:27

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Mr. Wookums posted:

Elaborate on "Depends, but no." What about the students who remained at the white school, they're statistically receiving an even better education with black students being bussed in, are they not punished by the status quo?
What is your professional education experience? You're advocating against the literal solution to this problem.

As in, some taxation is punitive, such as "sin taxes" and even some sales tax. I don't agree with them, but they are punitive.

No, they're not being punished by the status quo. Punishment implies that it's being inflicted on them. Status quo is the opposite. Those chose the status quo, by moving to that school district (in the case of the "rich" school).

My experience was personal, as an assistant to the Special Education program in our school during my junior and senior years. We had two programs, one that I helped with, (special education children with learning disabilities, etc.) and the BEST program. The BEST program was where they put the worst disruptions to school life in general. That was next door. Fights, shouting matches and other issues were a daily problem in the BEST room. When dealing with the individuals in the program in other classes, it was plain to see why they were in there. The kind of people who would throw a rock at the back of someone's head in a class for fun, and then try to start a fight with a teacher when called on it.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 21:28

zoux: Apr 28, 2006

Punitive taxes are called "fines".

# ? Apr 5, 2016 21:30

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

zoux posted:

Punitive taxes are called "fines".

Not necessarily - a Pigovian tax is a tax levied on something that produces a negative externality, like pollution. It's not strictly punitive, more like an attempt to "charge" you for the nonmonetary damages you produce, but it's fairly close, right? And the phrase "sin tax" existing and being applied to liquor and cigarette taxes makes me disagree even more.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 21:34

A Shitty Reporter: Oct 29, 2012; Dinosaur Gum

Integration was unpopular, Talmonis. That's not an excuse. Or more accurately, it's the same excuse you're using because you're the same type of rear end in a top hat who opposed integration.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 21:35

Uranium Phoenix: Jun 20, 2007; Boom.

Talmonis posted:

My experience was personal, as an assistant to the Special Education program in our school during my junior and senior years. We had two programs, one that I helped with, (special education children with learning disabilities, etc.) and the BEST program. The BEST program was where they put the worst disruptions to school life in general. That was next door. Fights, shouting matches and other issues were a daily problem in the BEST room. When dealing with the individuals in the program in other classes, it was plain to see why they were in there. The kind of people who would throw a rock at the back of someone's head in a class for fun, and then try to start a fight with a teacher when called on it.

It sounds to me like this is ultimately a different topic than integration. I know what kind of students you're talking about, having dealt with them myself, and I agree that special education needs more funding. That allows programs to afford the experts and support they need to get those students on track. That is a different problem than the more general one of busing, racism, and poor schools.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 21:37

Rhesus Pieces: Jun 27, 2005

JeffersonClay posted:

The IMF continues to abandon its 90's and 00's positions on austerity, government spending and growth.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/christine-lagarde-minimum-wage_us_5703c7f1e4b0daf53af0d8ff

It'll be interesting to see what excuses for austerity governments put forward in spite of this. That Reinhart-Rogoff debunking a few years ago didn't seem to move the needle much.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 21:38

menino: Jul 27, 2006; Pon De Floor

Raerlynn posted:

Absolutely. The problem is when you get in those disagreements and we have renowned shitposters making blanket claims about what is or isn't fair. It's easy for us on Something Awful to say "You family, must bus your child(ren) to this school that's in danger of losing its credentials for the sake of the poor despite having one of the best schools in the state just up the road from you," because I guarantee you that neither you nor I are making that sacrifice. The family that is however, is likely going to have some objections, and hand waving that away is at best naive.

This forum is awful quick to volunteer someone or something else takes the hit for the team when it comes to ideological purity, and then they wonder why their proposals fall apart in the real world.

Yes I mean I would not give up my kid going to a top ranked school instead of going to a war zone, but there's a lot of middle ground. I grew up on the south side of Chicago and went to public school, so I've seen both sides of this issue. White students were always a minority where I went to school and by the time I got to 7th grade there was a lot of hostility towards the white minority. Not really enough to claim "reverse racism" especially because I am the one who went through it and felt like it was pretty tame.

But I guarantee this is the stuff white parents in Chicago do not want to happen to their kids, they just catch a whiff of it and don't want to put their kids through it even if it's really not a big deal or has a very small chance of happening. I don't think there's really anything racist about parents thinking that but I guarantee my simply implying that white students could actually feel legitimately threatened in a majority black school environment will be handwaved as racism by a lot of umbragiatti, which is a terrible way to get people on your side in these debates.

I would personally have no problem sending my kids to a majority black school as long as test scores were decent, but the issue is that there are very few majority black schools in Chicago that fit into that middle band for test scores.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 21:38

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

An Angry Bug posted:

Integration was unpopular, Talmonis. That's not an excuse. Or more accurately, it's the same excuse you're using because you're the same type of rear end in a top hat who opposed integration.

Cute. But no, integration is a net good, even if it's not popular. Even if busing is a positive decision (which I agree it is), I don't think it's the solution to everything as proposed.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 21:39