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Koramei posted:I've always hated how your spies can get locked out for 5 years with pretty much nothing you can do about it, and now that fabricating claims are tied to it's so much worse. Giving us an option like "your spies are caught! pay 50% of your yearly income to keep them hidden" would make espionage stuff so much more viable than "the RNG decided gently caress you and there's nothing you can do about it". And it'd mean spy defense would still be valuable since you'd be draining your enemy's cash. I think it's fine. You just have to accept that claims aren't a given. Eat the stab hit or the extra ae/cost. Work towards a better CB. It seems kind of ridiculous that over a few years a country just comes up with claims for half a dozen provinces in another country and that seems legit and reasonable. "Yes, yes, all this paperwork seems to be in order. "
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Apr 6, 2016 16:47
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I wonder if we're ever going to get that "spring cleaning" patch. Corruption could be (slightly) interesting if it tied into other similar mechanics more evenly.
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Apr 6, 2016 16:59
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They do it in bits and pieces but just going around all the old idea groups and integrating the new bonuses into them would add so much.Tsyni posted:I think it's fine. You just have to accept that claims aren't a given. Eat the stab hit or the extra ae/cost. Work towards a better CB. It seems kind of ridiculous that over a few years a country just comes up with claims for half a dozen provinces in another country and that seems legit and reasonable. "Yes, yes, all this paperwork seems to be in order. " Claims make it more egregious since they're so prominent, but the real issue is with every other kind of espionage action. Espionage was garbage before they implemented the 5 year blockout so I can't say it's all that's keeping people from using it, but it really hampers building any strategies around the idea group (like say, using infiltrate administration or trying to use study technology) when so much of its utility is purely based on luck.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:07
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Koramei posted:I've always hated how your spies can get locked out for 5 years with pretty much nothing you can do about it, and now that fabricating claims are tied to it's so much worse. Giving us an option like "your spies are caught! pay 50% of your yearly income to keep them hidden" would make espionage stuff so much more viable than "the RNG decided gently caress you and there's nothing you can do about it". And it'd mean spy defense would still be valuable since you'd be draining your enemy's cash. But you can't be discovered until your spy network is size 25? So you can just keep getting it up to 10 and fabricate each claim in order and then it doesn't matter if you're locked out.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:31
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I think claims are dumb in the first place. A more elegant system would be nice. What does "unbalanced research" actually mean? The game is incredibly unclear on this.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:32
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Koramei posted:They do it in bits and pieces but just going around all the old idea groups and integrating the new bonuses into them would add so much. I agree with your larger point and I wish Espionage ideas were scrapped and a spy idea or two were just rolled into Influence/Diplo and let everyone steal maps and tech and so on. Maybe you have to build a spy network and the bigger the country is (relatively) the longer it takes. I dunno what a perfect solution is.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:33
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Fister Roboto posted:I think claims are dumb in the first place. A more elegant system would be nice. My current tech level is 4/7/5 (admin/diplo/mil) and I am getting .06 corruption a year from that. I don't know the number breakdown though.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:39
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I think I like the new addition of sailors, but it still needs a bit getting used to. However I think sailors should be returned to your sailor pool when you mothball ships, as opposed to now where they just sort of disappear.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:45
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Koramei posted:Yeah, they should rebalance the areas like they did for regions. I'm guessing they shifted states from being tied to regions pretty late and didn't have time, but it's pretty painful right now. It would make it a lot more complex but I would rather have each State be a minimum base development or something. Development is a lot better measure of value than number of provinces. I'm a little disappointed that States/Territories, Corruption, and the changes to colonies in Trade Company areas all hurt The Rest of the World harder than they do Europe. Edit: the game tracks how many times a province has been developed, would be cool if you could create a State and add provinces or Areas to it up to a maximum of 50 base development or whatever. That way the amount of non-overseas land you have is based on development rather than number of provinces. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Apr 6, 2016 |
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Apr 6, 2016 17:47
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So what would a good list of Ambitions be for a custom country?
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Apr 6, 2016 17:58
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Fister Roboto posted:I think claims are dumb in the first place. A more elegant system would be nice. I wonder if a "justify war" action would be better. You justify a war and it gives you CB that lasts for X years and hits your prestige of you don't declare before it expires.
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Apr 6, 2016 18:12
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I can't decide if I love or hate corruption yet. I am playing a Kongo game and just got the events to flip to Catholic. Crawling back from 0 religious unity is painful, and my minimum autonomy floor slowly rising as corruption does just makes me weaker and weaker. Koorisch posted:So what would a good list of Ambitions be for a custom country? Ambitions as in goals? Or do you mean ideas or something? I'd look at the achievements, the custom nation ones are all pretty neat, the one where you have to unite NA and SA is a bit of a slog, though.
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Apr 6, 2016 18:12
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Tsyni posted:Ambitions as in goals? Or do you mean ideas or something? I'd look at the achievements, the custom nation ones are all pretty neat, the one where you have to unite NA and SA is a bit of a slog, though. I meant the things you get from getting Ideas.
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Apr 6, 2016 18:20
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Koorisch posted:I meant the things you get from getting Ideas. Duh, my english werk good. Ok, well, it's hard to say. You usually want to start your national ideas with the ones that are going to be most useful right off the bat. So the ambition is going to be the least useful one. Siege ability is good later because forts get really tough (it's obviously good early on too though.) There are lots of good ones to pick from. Morale, Discipline, land leader shock/fire, core cost, tech cost, idea cost, colonists (if you're colonizing), etc etc. What you choose for the ambition will depend on how you prioritize the rest. It should be at the bottom of your list.
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Apr 6, 2016 18:31
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Tsyni posted:Duh, my english werk good. Ok, well, it's hard to say. You usually want to start your national ideas with the ones that are going to be most useful right off the bat. So the ambition is going to be the least useful one. Siege ability is good later because forts get really tough (it's obviously good early on too though.) There are lots of good ones to pick from. Morale, Discipline, land leader shock/fire, core cost, tech cost, idea cost, colonists (if you're colonizing), etc etc. What you choose for the ambition will depend on how you prioritize the rest. It should be at the bottom of your list. Mkay, so what would you suggest as the first ones to pick?
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Apr 6, 2016 18:33
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Koorisch posted:Mkay, so what would you suggest as the first ones to pick? Need more specifics to give you better recommendations. Where in the world are you going to start your custom nation? Do you want to colonize at any point? You can't go wrong with Discipline, Land Morale, or Coring Cost Reduction for starting Ambitions. Colonists, Inflation Reduction, Missionary stuff, Siege Ability, Army Tradition and many others are good for later NIs.
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Apr 6, 2016 18:43
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Monthly war exhaustion reduction is really powerful too. Even a little can keep you at 0.
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Apr 6, 2016 18:47
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Koorisch posted:Mkay, so what would you suggest as the first ones to pick? It depends a bit where you are starting. Can't go wrong with Core Cost reduction as a first one, same with accepted culture threshold. If you're in the HRE then Aggressive Expansion reduction is very useful early, same with better relations over time. Army moral is a great idea. For your two traditions you might go with tech/idea cost, or the core cost reduction. If you want to colonize it's a different story a bit. War exhaustion reduction can be good if you're at war a lot. Tolerance of heathens...a lot of these thing synergize with idea groups so it really depends a lot on where you're starting and what you plan to do.
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Apr 6, 2016 18:48
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Are there any showstopping bugs right now?
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Apr 6, 2016 18:52
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PittTheElder posted:I don't know why the starting number of possible states is so damned high. You'd think it would start small and then increase as you moved through Admin tech or government levels or something.
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Apr 6, 2016 18:53
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Where do you see a listing of your states, and what the max number is?
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Apr 6, 2016 19:04
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Zotix posted:Where do you see a listing of your states, and what the max number is? It's under the Stability and Expansion tab, with stability, rebels, overextension and stuff There's also a map mode
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Apr 6, 2016 19:07
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These stupid mechanics are kinda hilarious with some nations, try to play Ming, you get triple hosed. Really awesome patch/expansion this one. Still don't get what they wanted to do with Corruption.
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Apr 6, 2016 19:55
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Corruption is quite clearly intended to gently caress up gamey power blobbing. I don't know how well it works, but that is obviously the intent.Sindai posted:Originally states were regions, not areas, and you only started with 1-3 before admin tech. This didn't really work for countries that happened to start at the intersection of multiple regions, so it was changed to areas and the number increased. I know, and I'm super happy they changed it to PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Apr 6, 2016 |
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Apr 6, 2016 20:17
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:Corruption is quite clearly intended to gently caress up gamey power blobbing. I don't know how well it works, but that is obviously the intent. It's Areas at present, and 15 Areas is like 50-75 provinces. That's not very large, especially if you're in a part of the world with many low-development provinces. Corruption mostly seems to gently caress over poor nations, so far. If you're a power blobber you can most likely afford to pay it down, it's a small yearly gain like Inflation.
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Apr 6, 2016 20:24
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Tahirovic posted:These stupid mechanics are kinda hilarious with some nations, try to play Ming, you get triple hosed. Really awesome patch/expansion this one. Still don't get what they wanted to do with Corruption. In one of the threads on the official forums, Johan made it sound like (part) of the reasoning was a nerf to ROTW nations, to make it more likely western nations end the game well ahead. Also that it was nerfed heavily in beta and used to be harsher! Getting nerfed on easy difficulty again? Johan posted:Yes corruption hurt nations outside of Europe. That is part of the intent, if you are neglecting adm and dip, but not MIL, its supposed to hurt. I haven't tried it as a ROTW country yet. It's pretty much stayed locked at zero for the first 80 years of the game as a western nation. (Got up to 1 or 2 briefly?)
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Apr 6, 2016 20:25
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Holy shitballs! Started a Poland-into-Prussia game because 1) new DLC, 2) never tried it before. I just finished coring the Teutons, culture-shifted into Prussian (at +1 stablity) when I got event that gave me +1 stability, used Papal Influence to get another +1, and burned 160 ADM to get back to positive territory. I was just thinking that now it was time to sit and wait until Austria recovered WE so I could call them into a war for Danzig with Pomerania + HRE Bohemia, when BAM! Personal Union with Austria!!!  Only downside is that now I'm in a Succession War with England (who start with 3.4 WE from a brawl with France), but it should be easy enough to hold Vienna. If anyone wants the save file, I can upload it to Dropbox.
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Apr 6, 2016 20:28
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gently caress historical outcomes, making the Rest of the World fun and playable has been one of the major successes of EU4 imo. Nerfing ROTW nations is the exact wrong direction to take the game. Edit: yeah, I wouldn't mind if the mil tech bonuses were more gradual and granular, such that for example the first few tech levels are so vital because a bunch of them give Tactics. Make mil tech less crucial, make admin and especially diplo more attractive. \/\/\/\/\/ Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Apr 6, 2016 |
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Apr 6, 2016 20:31
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I still don't understand the purpose of unbalanced tech penalties. I always want to be ahead on miltech and I don't care about diptech. They're punishing the symptom, but they really ought to be addressing the cause, and now I just have to pay a few extra ducats. Why even bother?
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Apr 6, 2016 20:32
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So Corruption is there to ensure that the rest of the world is behind Europe in military tech, when they Westernize? And they want Western countries to be ahead at the end of the game? Kinda seems like Corruption is being used to treat the symptom of them allowing Westernization in the first place. Or maybe I'm reading things into it that aren't there because I'm not a huge fan of the tech system as is.
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Apr 6, 2016 20:51
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Pellisworth posted:gently caress historical outcomes, making the Rest of the World fun and playable has been one of the major successes of EU4 imo. I have mixed feelings on this. I support ROTW being harder, but the current westernization system is screwy (and more importantly kinda... unfun?) and encourages gamey poo poo like trying to grab colonies in the new world in order to get a border with a western state. I'd like to see a westernization system that was more involved, somehow. Like in order to westernize you had to Reform Government (Admin) Reform Society (Diplo) Reform Military (Mil) and you had to buy your way up a series of reform tracks something like the native American tracks. These reforms would be really, really expensive (your entire point pool for one? makes it easier/harder to reform the better/worse your starting tech group is), but could offer a bunch of discounts based on various factors like: bordering western states, having a western ally, having idea groups like innovative, low corruption, other nations in your culture group/geo region having the reforms, etc. Each reform could offer some small bonus (+discipline, -tech cost) but also come with a mini event chain? Or each Reform Track could have a triggered Disaster that gains points the more reforms you have? It would also fit the rest of the games philosophy better, by taking active action and spending points manually. The current system of clicking 'go' and suffering heavy point drain for decades while passively waiting for some meters to fill is... not fun? Fintilgin fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Apr 6, 2016 |
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Apr 6, 2016 20:51
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Westernisation is kinda dumb at the moment. Eg The innovative idea groups tech discount is counterproductive.
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Apr 6, 2016 20:57
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ROTW is already significantly harder than Europe. They can keep up on mil tech if they try really hard, but at the cost of absolutely everything else. If the point of corruption was to keep them even further behind then that's pretty stupid.
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Apr 6, 2016 20:58
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Has anyone else noticed that vassals don't always core provinces that you feed to them? It's not a territory issue, this is in my vassal's capitol state.
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Apr 6, 2016 21:02
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Are they sitting at -3 stability or something?pointsofdata posted:Westernisation is kinda dumb at the moment. Eg The innovative idea groups tech discount is counterproductive. Wiz and Johan agree, based on their previous statements on the matter. Problem is nobody has thought of anything better yet, which is not helped by the fact that there are quite possibly zero examples from the period. But ripping off Vicky's system seems like it would be a move in the right direction. e: Oh yeah, Russia is an obvious example. Japan probably didn't, until the Meiji Restoration. But you're right that the military bonuses accumulate way too soon, the Japanese were doing very similar things to Europeans on the battlefield, and likely could have repulsed any invasion pretty easily, as would have any similarly united polity probably. And it's definitely weird that Steppe Hordes are a complete non-factor by like 1475. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Apr 6, 2016 |
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Apr 6, 2016 21:34
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PittTheElder posted:Are they sitting at -3 stability or something? Russia and Japan both westernised in a fairly deliberate manner, although perhaps they are both a bit later than relevant. Perhaps the issue would be solved by reducing the tech penalties (or making them increase with time from a lower base) and keeping westernisation as is, as it does represent the process Japan underwent in an OK manner. It feels a bit silly at the moment that Western nations have big military advantages over Muslim ones as early as 1480
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Apr 6, 2016 21:43
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Fintilgin posted:I have mixed feelings on this. I support ROTW being harder, but the current westernization system is screwy (and more importantly kinda... unfun?) and encourages gamey poo poo like trying to grab colonies in the new world in order to get a border with a western state. Didn't EU3Plus reform in that manner? It was pretty irritating.
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Apr 6, 2016 21:52
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PittTheElder posted:Are they sitting at -3 stability or something? Westernization is somewhat nonsensical during this time period. ROTW was not noticeably behind until the mid to late 18th century. Russia ends this period as Europe's premier power and falls behind entirely inside of the Victoria time period. EU4 isn't good at doing Asian colonial empires without a tech gap, but this has more to do with the game's tendency towards blobs than anything else. European powers in Asia during this time period picked off small and isolated states and very slowly built their control. In EU4, those states cease to exist by the time Europeans reach Asia. This might be fixable if large Asian empires, like Ming/Qing or Mughals, could enact some kind of "tributary" mechanic on small states where they promised ("promised") to protect small states in exchange for essentially vassal fees. Then Europeans could pick off small states whenever Ming / Qing / Mughals were busy, kind of like the HRE. Dibujante fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Apr 6, 2016 |
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Apr 6, 2016 21:55
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PittTheElder posted:Are they sitting at -3 stability or something? Nope. This was as the Ottomans. I annexed Byzantium, released Achaea as a vassal, and gave them Athens and Morea. After 10 years had passed, I annexed them, and when that was done, neither Athens nor Morea had my cores. I reloaded to the year earlier to check, and Achaea had never bothered to core two of its three provinces.
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Apr 6, 2016 22:26
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Is vassal feeding just selling territories to a vassal? Or is that something separate?
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Apr 6, 2016 22:34
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