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Jack of Hearts posted:"Hello Gambol goons! You two get to beat each other to death for the chance to join my prestigious organization." Fun question Do you ever seen any of those three men alive again
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Apr 7, 2016 06:28
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Burkion posted:Fun question I don't honestly know. But I think I can guess. Is the answer no, and that the Joker isn't a gang leader in the Nolan films, and he relies on goon Craigslist? Ledger was amazing, but that doesn't mean the plot wasn't convoluted and bizarre even by comic book standards.
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Apr 7, 2016 06:43
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I think people make a mistake by taking from movies that shoot on location or otherwise look realistic the expectation that events in them "should" be a simulation of exacting reality for them to be "well made" movies. But not many movies are actually made that way when so much more impact can be made with the film's tone and atmosphere. In this case the Joker's bank robbery doesn't work the way it does because it makes sense or is the textbook correct way to navigate the criminal underworld, it works the way it does because it's built around him being a chaotic person that thinks people only exist to consume each other. One could make a movie where the Joker is confined to operating in a fully realistic way, and that could potentially be a good movie too, but showing how to rob banks and how to do a lot these other actions wasn't the point of the movie, and since it's already pushing it at two+ hours it's understandable to have the bank robbery scene structured so that thematically it tells you everything you need to know about the setting and what the Joker is all about in a few minutes without even showing him on screen while also maintaining a consistent intensity until the buses pull out at the end. It's great. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Apr 7, 2016 |
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Apr 7, 2016 06:52
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Expecting the plot to mechanically make any realistic sense when it's driven by the Joker is probably looking for the wrong thing in the film.
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Apr 7, 2016 06:53
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Maluco Marinero posted:Expecting the plot to mechanically make any realistic sense when it's driven by the Joker is probably looking for the wrong thing in the film. The Nolan films are "dark gritty 'realistic'" Batman, though. Given the amount of effort put into justifying the Batmobile, it's not crazy to ask for the Joker to have some internal logic.
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Apr 7, 2016 06:59
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Jack of Hearts posted:The Nolan films are "dark gritty 'realistic'" Batman, though. Given the amount of effort put into justifying the Batmobile, it's not crazy to ask for the Joker to have some internal logic. This is a contrast, not an inconsistency.
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Apr 7, 2016 07:01
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Jack of Hearts posted:The Nolan films are "dark gritty 'realistic'" Batman, though. I don't think any Batman product on earth is this except for maybe The Forensic Files of Batman. The Nolan films were touted by Warner Bros. and Nolan as being "more grounded than Batman and Robin," that critics and some moviegoers received the movies as being humorless or too dark is another thing entirely.
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Apr 7, 2016 07:03
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Sir Kodiak posted:This is a contrast, not an inconsistency. This is correct. In the previous movie, we see Batman...well, begin. We see how he learns how to fight, we see how he gets his car, how he made his costume, ect. We don't get that with Joker. He is a complete mystery, perhaps even to himself. We don't get Joker's hows, but we get his whys
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Apr 7, 2016 07:26
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The Dark Knight is my favorite comic book movie
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Apr 7, 2016 07:28
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Dude wondering how a cartoon supervillain finds thugs when they keep getting killed for the plan, meanwhile ISIS exists in reality.
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Apr 7, 2016 07:53
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TetsuoTW posted:Dude wondering how a cartoon supervillain finds thugs when they keep getting killed for the plan, meanwhile ISIS exists in reality. ISIS is not self-destructive (at least not deliberately), nor is it nihilistic. ISIS attracts recruits with promises of protection (a big issue for Iraqi Sunnis who fear Shia persecution), money, respect, and a sense of purpose through serving God.
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Apr 7, 2016 08:38
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It's almost as if gangsters aren't exactly good at making the best life choices. Thanks to the discussion a while back I rewatched the first half of Thor. I have changed my mind, the first thirty minutes on Asgard are better than the earth stuff. I really like douchebag jock Thor launching a War On Terror against the Frost Giants and almost getting his friends killed while he has so much fun beating things with his hammer. And the "You are a loose cannon Thor, give me your badge and gun!" scene with Odin is fantastic. Also, the scene where we get topless Hemsworth isn't just female gaze, it's straight-up Kat Dennings' perspective. We get to marvel at his magnificent torso while looking over her shoulder.
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Apr 7, 2016 08:38
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Jack of Hearts posted:"Hello Gambol goons! You two get to beat each other to death for the chance to join my prestigious organization." Now that you mention it, Flash is objectively the best hero isn't he? Every other hero's city is getting wrecked every other week and is home to super criminals of horrific bent. Meanwhile, outside the occasional super intelligent gorilla, the most people have to worry about in Central City is some Adam West Batmanesque bank robbery. No wonder he's got a museum in his honor.
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Apr 7, 2016 11:52
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Gyges posted:Now that you mention it, Flash is objectively the best hero isn't he? Every other hero's city is getting wrecked every other week and is home to super criminals of horrific bent. Meanwhile, outside the occasional super intelligent gorilla, the most people have to worry about in Central City is some Adam West Batmanesque bank robbery.
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Apr 7, 2016 12:56
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net cafe scandal posted:The Dark Knight is my favorite comic book movie It's really good
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Apr 7, 2016 14:58
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Gyges posted:Now that you mention it, Flash is objectively the best hero isn't he? Every other hero's city is getting wrecked every other week and is home to super criminals of horrific bent. Meanwhile, outside the occasional super intelligent gorilla, the most people have to worry about in Central City is some Adam West Batmanesque bank robbery.
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Apr 7, 2016 17:19
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The two boats scene in TDK will never not be the worst thing in any Batman film ever.
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Apr 7, 2016 17:30
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TetsuoTW posted:Not only that, he's got it so easy that when someone gets ideas above their station in Flash's territory, the other villains beat the poo poo out of the guy just to make sure the Flash isn't inconvenienced. I need to know more about this, it sounds hilarious.
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Apr 7, 2016 17:34
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TetsuoTW posted:Not only that, he's got it so easy that when someone gets ideas above their station in Flash's territory, the other villains beat the poo poo out of the guy just to make sure the Flash isn't inconvenienced.
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Apr 7, 2016 17:48
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Rhyno posted:The two boats scene in TDK will never not be the worst thing in any Batman film ever. Agreed. That was too moronically naive and saccharine for my tastes.
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Apr 7, 2016 17:59
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Kurzon posted:The Flash can't survive being punched through a wall so destructive battles the likes of which Superman writers are so fond of can't be plausibly done in a Flash story. He can, but he has the common decency to just accelerate his atoms to the point where he passes harmlessly through the wall.
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Apr 7, 2016 17:59
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Rhyno posted:The two boats scene in TDK will never not be the worst thing in any Batman film ever. I like the idea of the scene but it's pretty poorly cut in. All the drama is really in the tower fight/rescue. It just feels like they really, really wanted the two boats situation in the movie (to drive home Joker's worldview) and refused to cut it despite the runtime and pacing issues it caused.
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Apr 7, 2016 18:07
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Kurzon posted:How does the Joker get all these gangsters and corrupt cops to work for him when he is clearly not interested in making money and is a terrorist with no ideology? The guy gives speeches about the nature of systemic violence and is explicitly invested in challenging the system that normalizes it. He's got an ideology.
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Apr 7, 2016 18:08
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It feels more like nihilism. Ideologues want to establish some form of order, whereas the Joker just wants to watch the world burn.
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Apr 7, 2016 18:18
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Kurzon posted:Ideologues want to establish some form of order Not necessarily. Not if that's not what their ideology drives them to.
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Apr 7, 2016 18:20
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Kurzon posted:It feels more like nihilism. Ideologues want to establish some form of order, whereas the Joker just wants to watch the world burn. That's according to Alfred, who is wrong.
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Apr 7, 2016 18:21
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:That's according to Alfred, who is wrong. Yeah, remember that the conclusion of his story is literally having Alfred burn down the world to catch a guy.
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Apr 7, 2016 18:25
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Anarchism: not an ideology
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Apr 7, 2016 18:26
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"A terrorist with no ideology" is a contradiction in terms. The Joker's ideology is hard to parse, because he lies, and because Alfred gives a neat little speech speculating about the Joker's (lack of) ideology and gets it wrong, but he has one, and it comes out in the commonality of what he lies about. The "chaos is fair" stuff is it, basically.
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Apr 7, 2016 18:30
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computer parts posted:Yeah, remember that the conclusion of his story is literally having Alfred burn down the world to catch a guy. That dialogue actually needs to be read very carefully: "A long time ago, I was in Burma. My friends and I were working for the local government. They were trying to buy the loyalty of tribal leaders by bribing them with precious stones. But their caravans were being raided in a forest north of Rangoon by a bandit. So, we went looking for the stones. But in six months, we never met anybody who traded with him. One day, I saw a child playing with a ruby the size of a tangerine. The bandit had been throwing them away." Wayne: So why steal them? "Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn." Alfred and Wayne are too dumb to realize that the bandit's goal was fighting the government, along with the implicit colonialism Alfred stands for. He was taking away the government's ability to bribe the leaders - and the implication is that he was giving that bribery money to the poor: the child in the story must have been playing in the garbage. Wayne: The bandit, in the forest in Burma, did you catch him? "Yes." Wayne: How? "We burned the forest down." Alfred burns the forest down, but does so in order to preserve the government. He burns half the world. This is ultimately a reference to the logic of Harney Dent, with his Two-Face persona.
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Apr 7, 2016 18:50
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Okay, maybe the Joker does or does not have an ideology. That's beside the point. The point is that the gangsters and corrupt cops who join the Joker have no sensible reason to do so. They won't profit in any way from the Joker's terrorism and they'll be hunted down to the ends of the Earth by the American government.
Kurzon fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Apr 7, 2016 |
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Apr 7, 2016 18:54
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Rhyno posted:The two boats scene in TDK will never not be the worst thing in any Batman film ever. Counterpoint: Tiny Lister is dope and brings up any movie a couple notches by his presence.
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Apr 7, 2016 18:54
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Counterpoint: Tiny Lister is dope and brings up any movie a couple notches by his presence. Amen.
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Apr 7, 2016 18:54
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Kurzon posted:Okay, maybe the Joker does or does not have an ideology. That's beside the point. The point is that the gangsters and corrupt cops who join the Joker have no sensible reason to do so. They won't profit in any way from the Joker's terrorism and they'll be hunted down to the ends of the Earth by the American government. The criminals at the start of the film join him on a conventional bank robbery (they don't even find out they're robbing the mob until the end) and only one of them figures out, by the very end of it, that the logic that the other guys are disposable applies to him as well. They're motivated by greed, and the Joker turns this against them by using their greed to get them to kill each other. The gang leaders turn to the Joker in an attempt to counter the Batman's efforts to take them down. He offers them a service and they think they're money is enough to buy it, the way it buys them everything else. The corrupt cops think the Joker is just another crime boss like Maroni, given that he gets access to them through his connections. They've been fooled by decades of systemic corruption into thinking that it's just another part of the status quo. And eventually, of course, they're personally terrified of the Joker and think that cooperating with him might spare them or their loved ones. And then there's the straight-up lunatics he recruits, who don't need a "sensible reason." The guy's shtick is working the system and then blowing it up on the way out once it's too late for anyone to stop him.
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Apr 7, 2016 19:12
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Counterpoint: Tiny Lister is dope and brings up any movie a couple notches by his presence. Debo would've pushed the button.
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Apr 7, 2016 19:16
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Sir Kodiak posted:The criminals at the start of the film join him on a conventional bank robbery (they don't even find out they're robbing the mob until the end) and only one of them figures out, by the very end of it, that the logic that the other guys are disposable applies to him as well. They're motivated by greed, and the Joker turns this against them by using their greed to get them to kill each other. Also Joker's "superpower" is his ability to arrange wildly complex schemes seemingly by magic (much like Batman). No one wants to see Joker poring over payroll spreadsheets for his various henchmen and bribe recipients.
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Apr 7, 2016 19:33
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Terrible Horse posted:Also Joker's "superpower" is his ability to arrange wildly complex schemes seemingly by magic (much like Batman). No one wants to see Joker poring over payroll spreadsheets for his various henchmen and bribe recipients. Well, let's not forget that one of the most notorious Joker storylines, albeit an early one, involves his plans going awry after he's audited by the IRS.
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Apr 7, 2016 19:37
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Terrible Horse posted:Also Joker's "superpower" is his ability to arrange wildly complex schemes seemingly by magic (much like Batman). No one wants to see Joker poring over payroll spreadsheets for his various henchmen and bribe recipients.
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Apr 7, 2016 19:38
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Thwomp posted:I like the idea of the scene but it's pretty poorly cut in. All the drama is really in the tower fight/rescue. This had to have been David S. Goyer. Everything he writes has some impossible moral quandary.
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Apr 7, 2016 19:40
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No, it's Nolan, the director. The director is the guy who has the power and decides what really happens in the movie, including where scenes are placed. In fact, the screenplay was written by the Nolan brothers. Goyer conceived the story but didn't write the script.
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Apr 7, 2016 19:42
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