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MaxxBot posted:You don't need decades of hindsight to see that these policies were going to ruin many thousands of lives. If you make the punishments for drug dealing and possession as harsh as the penalties for serious violent crimes you're going to send a ton of people to prison, including people who did no harm to anyone. Anyone could have seen that outcome, but they passed the laws anyways because of the political climate. Man with decades of hindsight claims decades of hindsight unnecessary.
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Apr 8, 2016 00:20
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Noam Chomsky posted:Iron Rose, like many "moderate" pseudo-intellectuals who post here, seems totally ignorant of how we've compromised away a lot of what made and makes this country great over the last 30 to 40 years. I wonder how much we can compromise away before it becomes unpalatable to useful idiots like Iron Rose. see all of this would hold true if I was saying that the democrats were in the wrong for failing to bend to GOP insanity. i'm not. About the only thing I disagree with you about is that I think having a functioning democracy with diverse viewpoints is more important than getting my way all the time, even if that means policies that I don't like get enacted. And yeah, people will die because of it. that's worth the cost of democracy. So, my concern is that if and only if we see a moderate GOP resurgent, I would like the democratic party not to dive headfirst into social democracy or other forms of radical leftism.
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Apr 8, 2016 00:20
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Cat Army 
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Apr 8, 2016 00:22
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Is that Gaga?
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Apr 8, 2016 00:24
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zoux posted:Is that Gaga? It is, yes.
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Apr 8, 2016 00:26
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zoux posted:At the time the compassion was on the side of the victims. There were already thousands of lives being ruined by what violence was doing to the inner cities. The drugs and the gangs were inseparable. There was no access to decades of CJ analytical data because the Reagan poo poo was barely 10 years old. So, yeah again, hindsight, and sober removal from the spirit of the times do convey a lot of wisdom. This would make sense if they only punished the dealers but the charges for possession were often only somewhat less rabidly authoritarian than those for the dealers. It's funny how drug warrior logic says that people who buy drugs have no agency but simultaneously that they deserve severe punishment. It is true though that it would be silly to paint Bill as uniquely bad, nor was his crime bill the source of all of this bad policy as it is sometimes portrayed.
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Apr 8, 2016 00:27
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The Iron Rose posted:I would like the democratic party not to dive headfirst into social democracy or other forms of radical leftism. quote:social democracy is characterized by a commitment to policies aimed at curbing inequality, oppression of underprivileged groups, and poverty;[12] including support for universally accessible public services like care for the elderly, child care, education, health care and workers' compensation.
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Apr 8, 2016 00:30
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calling social democracy "radical leftism" probably bugs the hell out of radical leftists
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Apr 8, 2016 00:35
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Flavahbeast posted:calling social democracy "radical leftism" probably bugs the hell out of radical leftists And social democrats!
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Apr 8, 2016 00:35
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Volcott posted:Man with decades of hindsight claims decades of hindsight unnecessary. No I am just opposed on principle to giving out jail terms to people for crimes with no inherent victim, I have always felt this way. Even if those policies would have "worked" in some way I would still oppose them.
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Apr 8, 2016 00:37
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MaxxBot posted:This would make sense if they only punished the dealers but the charges for possession were often only somewhat less rabidly authoritarian than those for the dealers. It's funny how drug warrior logic says that people who buy drugs have no agency but simultaneously that they deserve severe punishment. It is true though that it would be silly to paint Bill as uniquely bad, nor was his crime bill the source of all of this bad policy as it is sometimes portrayed. "Tough on crime" was such an inviolable position to have for both parties I still get a little surprised when punishments get softened. One of the few areas where there is still bipartisan cooperation is on CJ reform bills that include community treatment and remediation for drug offenses and more jail diversion programs. Pretty much everyone today recognizes that the smarter approach is better that the harder approach, but we didn't know that at the time.
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Apr 8, 2016 00:39
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Flavahbeast posted:calling social democracy "radical leftism" probably bugs the hell out of radical leftists Which is part of the reason why I do it to be entirely honest.
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Apr 8, 2016 00:47
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awesmoe posted:And social democrats! I get bugged by people equating social democracy with democratic socialism.
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Apr 8, 2016 00:48
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The Iron Rose posted:Which is part of the reason why I do it to be entirely honest. i think it's because you're a dumbass
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Apr 8, 2016 00:56
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zoux posted:"Tough on crime" was such an inviolable position to have for both parties I still get a little surprised when punishments get softened. One of the few areas where there is still bipartisan cooperation is on CJ reform bills that include community treatment and remediation for drug offenses and more jail diversion programs. Pretty much everyone today recognizes that the smarter approach is better that the harder approach, but we didn't know that at the time. Yeah, this. The draconian sentencing didn't just materialize out of thin air and there is a reason why so many gated communities all of the sudden started to spring up in the late 80's and early 90's. I mean you can absolutely blame the Reagan and Nixon administrations for gutted the gently caress out of social welfare programs for the inner city and minorities along with the racially motivated draconian drug sentences as a partial cause of the 80's-90's crime wave, but people legitimately thought that the beginning of Demolition Man was a thing that was going to happen in the next decade to the inner city and the entire LA war zone back drop of Predator 2 was just 1-2 years away.
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Apr 8, 2016 00:57
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Kalman posted:He did. Clinton also endorsed Kloppenburg.
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Apr 8, 2016 00:59
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The deciding factor of this election will be the public response to Ghostbusters and Hillary's stated opinions of the franchise.
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Apr 8, 2016 01:08
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Paul Ryan just makin a speech on youtube for some reason https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECxH4uIswiA it's not going over very well 
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Apr 8, 2016 01:19
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Family Values posted:Clinton also endorsed Kloppenburg. Yes, but essentially all Clinton voters voted for Kloppenburg (96% per exit polls.). Sanders voters, not quite so much (85%, with some portion of that 15% voting for her terrible opponent Bradley.)
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Apr 8, 2016 01:33
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Kalman posted:Sanders voters, not quite so much (85%, with some portion of that 15% voting for her terrible opponent Bradley.) I'm just assuming that's the Trump crossover group?
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Apr 8, 2016 02:13
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Kalman posted:Yes, but essentially all Clinton voters voted for Kloppenburg (96% per exit polls.). Sanders voters, not quite so much (85%, with some portion of that 15% voting for her terrible opponent Bradley.) There's been a constant low teens of conservatives voting in the Democratic election that breaks strongly for Bernie and I suspect there purely voting anti Hillary
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Apr 8, 2016 02:19
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~Red Sun over paradise.~ Flavahbeast posted:Paul Ryan just makin a speech on youtube for some reason You know this is  as gently caress, but he should have expected to be eaten alive. I mean gently caress sucks look at his party's candidates.also sure ryan. lets have a contest of ideas. whats your stance on abortion?? Seraphic Neoman fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Apr 8, 2016 |
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Apr 8, 2016 02:25
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Dexo posted:Jesus gently caress I really really wish that the Republicans gave any fucks about minorities. Nothing matters lol
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Apr 8, 2016 03:37
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The Iron Rose posted:Electoral success is one thing, but compromise is quite another.
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Apr 8, 2016 03:46
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The Iron Rose posted:Which is part of the reason why I do it to be entirely honest. Cool thanks for letting us all know it's completely safe to ignore all your dumb bullshit, then. If you ever decide to stop being a Caitlyn Jenner wanna-be level embarrassment to the trans community, feel free to PM me about. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 8, 2016 04:43
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The Iron Rose posted:uh yeah retroactive criminal punishment is a radical loving position and one that everyone should abhor. Wait wait, trying and punishing people for the financial fraud and other crimes they committed during the bubble is retroactive punishment now? Like the only way you can ever punish someone for a crime is if you walk in on them red-handed as they're in the middle of doing it? Or is this some even more fantastically bizarre claim like "no one committed any financial crimes except Bernie Madoff and that one Goldman-Sachs middle manager who bragged about it in emails to his girlfriend but definitely did all the fraud on his own without any involvement with senior management" ?
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Apr 8, 2016 06:39
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Ran Mad Dog posted:Cool thanks for letting us all know it's completely safe to ignore all your dumb bullshit, then. gently caress the notion that minorities have to be leftists. VitalSigns posted:Wait wait, trying and punishing people for the financial fraud and other crimes they committed during the bubble is retroactive punishment now? Like the only way you can ever punish someone for a crime is if you walk in on them red-handed as they're in the middle of doing it? Lots of the poo poo done during the crash were due to a lack of effective regulation. Prosecuting bankers with new laws for crimes is retroactive punishment and terrible.
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Apr 8, 2016 06:56
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The Iron Rose posted:gently caress the notion that minorities have to be leftists. The Iron Rose posted:Lots of the poo poo done during the crash were due to a lack of effective regulation. Prosecuting bankers with new laws for crimes is retroactive punishment and terrible.
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Apr 8, 2016 07:16
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Uranium Phoenix posted:I'm actually curious--are there any major historical examples of right-wing parties fighting for oppressed or minority groups? Like, for LGBT rights, or helping people of color in the US, that kind of thing? No, they really mostly didn't break the law.
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Apr 8, 2016 07:21
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Uranium Phoenix posted:I'm actually curious--are there any major historical examples of right-wing parties fighting for oppressed or minority groups? national party of south africa, 1948-1994 
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Apr 8, 2016 07:35
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Kalman posted:No, they really mostly didn't break the law. Oh okay I guess the half billion or so Goldman-Sachs paid to settle the fraud charges was just a generous gift, how nice of them.
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Apr 8, 2016 07:38
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Kalman posted:No, they really mostly didn't break the law. Actually SOX regulations speak to the need to have adequate internal controls and to at least try to be accurate about your bank's risk exposure in publications.
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Apr 8, 2016 07:41
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Kalman posted:No, they really mostly didn't break the law. Also, completely false. Here is an interview with a former bank regulator who mentions that the banks performed hundreds of thousands of instances of fraud. Those mortgages were then packaged and sold as well rated investments, which is also fraud. Major banks also hid their losses illegally, as this article gets into. You can also read extensively about the settlements many banks had with the government, concerning widespread illegal practices, an example of which is mentioned at the bottom of this article. Again, people could have been jailed for committing these crimes. You can read about bankers and investors talking about how they were confused at how few people went to jail because so many crimes were being committed on such a regular basis. This article talks about how the banks are liable for fraud for knowingly packaging bad mortgages. A federal judge ruled the banks committed widespread fraud and if you're tired of articles, here's an academic study about liar's loans. Matt Tabbi's Griftopia also goes into many of the illegal practices banks and investors did, and since the book contains articles he wrote online, you can find those and read some of them. Things like robosigning continued after the Recession, and while big fines were levied, people weren't actually jailed, even though they had, again, broken the law on a massive scale on multiple levels. That's just scratching the surface. While you can certainly find executives and hand-wringing talking heads denying crimes were committed, the weight of evidence is overwhelmingly against them. There are literally hundreds of articles and studies out there talking about the widespread crimes committed on every level of the financial system, and you are absolutely and totally full of poo poo.
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Apr 8, 2016 07:44
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Yeah, aside from the anti-Hillary crossover, seems like Bernie brought downticket votes. There are plenty of Reagan Democrats sufficiently embarrassed by the Republican Party that they'll vote Bernie. After the primary, they'll go back to voting straight ticket R and claim to be independents.
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Apr 8, 2016 07:45
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And while it's not 2008 crisis related, don't forget HSBC laundering massive amounts of drug money and then getting a slap on the wrist. Anyone not working for a bank caught doing the same thing at a smaller scale by one or two magnitudes would rot in jail for 50 years.
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Apr 8, 2016 09:06
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Flavahbeast posted:Paul Ryan just makin a speech on youtube for some reason
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Apr 8, 2016 09:20
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And don't forget the decade-long LIBOR fixing scandal that banks like Barclay's and UBS used during the crisis to make their banks appear artificially healthy and benefit their trading positions by stealing from municipalities, pension funds, etc., proven crimes for which no one went to jail. But apparently this is opposite world and prosecuting people for crimes that were on the books when they committed them is now retroactive punishment because I don't know, laws aren't supposed to apply to bankers or something.
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Apr 8, 2016 09:34
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https://twitter.com/VOANews/status/718346091704541185 Interesting and it seems the last time he was there was in 2014.
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Apr 8, 2016 09:41
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The Iron Rose posted:Lots of the poo poo done during the crash were due to a lack of effective regulation. Prosecuting bankers with new laws for crimes is retroactive punishment and terrible. http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-last-mystery-of-the-financial-crisis-20130619 quote:"Lord help our loving scam . . . this has to be the stupidest place I have worked at," writes one Standard & Poor's executive. "As you know, I had difficulties explaining 'HOW' we got to those numbers since there is no science behind it," confesses a high-ranking S&P analyst. "If we are just going to make it up in order to rate deals, then quants [quantitative analysts] are of precious little value," complains another senior S&P man. "Let's hope we are all wealthy and retired by the time this house of card[s] falters," ruminates one more.
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Apr 8, 2016 10:09
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https://twitter.com/TNgov/status/718386171680854018 I knew it was only a matter of time. I'm hoping since Haslam is a business jackass it doesn't get past him but I bet it hits his desk unlike our medicaid expansion. quote:"Yesterday was a miracle. House Bill 2414 that protects the privacy of students in the bathrooms and locker rooms of our public schools and colleges was dead as a doornail at 3 p.m., yet at 7 p.m. passed by an 8-4 vote of the House Education Administration and Planning Committee!" Fowler wrote to followers. And of course this somehow protects privacy.
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Apr 8, 2016 11:54
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