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I like SEED. Honestly, I even like Destiny. I have no logical basis for it and couldn't explain it if I tried, but I do. 
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Apr 14, 2016 07:33
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If SEED was my first gundam series I'd probably rank it higher too, and if I were younger when I watched it I'd probably be totally into the teen drama and all that jazz, but I was just old enough to be less sympathetic of the characters and more annoyed by them. I give it credit for being competently-made for the most part, especially considering the follow-up. There's much, much worse out there than SEED, even if I don't particularly have a lot of nostalgia for it. (Honestly I just can't remember a lot and I'd never had the urge to rewatch it. I also was not a big fan of the OPs, EDs, and insert songs.) Ka0 posted:Didn't care much for giant robo either. I'm just not into super robot shows in general, with exceptions. I'm with dogsicle, I don't necessarily think this is about super robots per se. I think your tastes probably lean more towards the serious and nobody can fault you for that, though I'm guessing that because G Gundam and Giant Robo are explicitly not serious that you've given them short shrift. Not liking them is perfectly fine, but it's a shame to call either one of them "bad." And I know I'm not going to change your opinion of these shows, but I would like to at least give a defense of them and explain why a number of people do like them. To paraphrase Roger Ebert, you should judge a work based on how well it accomplishes what it sets out to do, and G Gundam knows what it wants to say and for the most part says it in style. Incredibly silly, hot-blooded, super robot style. And Giant Robo is considered Yasuhiro Imagawa's magnum opus for a reason, it's basically all the stuff that people like about G Gundam distilled into a more concentrated form. In both series, Imagawa eschews politics and realism for stylish campiness surrounding weaker plots that mostly serve to provide context and impetus for character development. At their heart, both G Gundam and Giant Robo are very much stories about their characters with a lot to say and the fun energy is there to get you on board to listen. Unsurprisingly, they're also both coming-of-age stories. I've talked about Giant Robo with Bad Seafood before, and he made a very good point in that it's really about the importance of having good role models in your life. Which is why Daisaku seems less interesting than all of the grown-up characters who all have fleshed out relationships and backstories for the audience to latch onto. And it's also why those grown-ups repeatedly give him advice, or explicitly try to be good examples of the man he ought to be when he grows up--and, by extension, when the presumed audience grows up too. It's also a campy save-the-world story with a remote-controlled robot the size of a skyscraper and a bunch of guys dressed up like they stepped out of Romance of the Three Kingdoms going toe-to-toe with a variety of sharp-dressed supervillains wearing bespoke suits. That ends on a notorious cliffhanger. G Gundam is also a campy save-the-world ecoterror story with comically racist punch-robots whose initial premise is literally a tournament arc, but with Gundams. G Gundam is also a story about emotional connections and communication as adults centered around a man suffering from arrested development, who is forced to grow up through both tragedy and the relationships he builds along the way. The most important of which is his relationship with Rain, one that's repeatedly singled out for being a surprisingly realistic and mature relationship for the Gundam franchise. And one deliberately written as a rejection of weird Newtype bullshit. And both lean heavily on the cinematic and romanticized wuxia toolbox in what can be described as a loving genre homage. I would not be surprised if there were an overlap between fans of kungfu movies and wuxia novels and fans of these two works, as they ooze the same pulpy, larger-than-life sensibilities. though I've also run into people who hate kungfu movies because they're unrealistic yet like the Fast and Furious franchise because they're unrealistic and all I can do is smdh
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Apr 14, 2016 08:38
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I've never thought of it before but the Fast and Furious franchise is actually a pretty good comparison to G Gundam. Both have a campy surface but they're also pretty fun and have actual things to say. I need to get on Giant Robo one of these days... Maybe after I'm done with Ideon.
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Apr 14, 2016 08:44
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I mentioned Fast and Furious because the franchise does share a wuxia-like warrior ethos with a strong emphasis on sworn brotherhood (and sisterhood) as an emotional anchor for the core characters. And like Imagawa's work the Furious movies also embrace style and imagination over realism, and from a certain point on do so knowingly, clearly so, and without shame. The early half is shakier in that regard, as the movies hadn't found the confidence to really own it. Also those car stunts are crazy, like wow
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Apr 14, 2016 08:54
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vin diesel stomped his foot down really hard and the parking garage he was standing on fell apart. did it collapse due to earlier structural damage from gunfights and explosions, or from vin diesel's sheer will? fast and furious is ambiguous with stuff like that. So yeah, actually, I never thought about it but F&F is a pretty damned good example.
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Apr 14, 2016 09:23
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I like a lot of SEED's uniforms. The Earth Alliance uniforms are a great modernization of the EFF uniforms (the 0079-style blue and pink uniforms actually look passable instead of poo poo), while ZAFT's are really nice.
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Apr 14, 2016 10:30
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MonsieurChoc posted:How does that not describe SEED perfectly? Give me a death that is as silly/dumb/bizarre as the ones you can find in MSG, Zeta or ZZ. The number of times in MSG people pointlessly suicide into things is crazy. What about Ramba? Seriously, SEED have absolutely nothing comparable except for remaster Nicole and that was dumb because they changed it from a perfectly good death. EA uniforms look like a cross between dress and functionality for a ships crew. Not that it stops them from deploying the same uniform for jungle fighting. ZAFT is strong without being NAZI like in the UC.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:01
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You know oohhboy, your weirdly adversarial style of discussion and hateboner for the thread does not make it easy to agree with you. Because I actually kinda do, even if I don't hold SEED in the same high regard as you do. Like for real a lot of the deaths in the UC series are weird as gently caress and whenever Tomino runs off we're left holding his baggage having to come up with our own justifications as to why Emma Sheen got out of her mobile suit in the middle of a pitched battle.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:14
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oohhboy posted:Give me a death that is as silly/dumb/bizarre as the ones you can find in MSG, Zeta or ZZ. The number of times in MSG people pointlessly suicide into things is crazy. What about Ramba? Seriously, SEED have absolutely nothing comparable except for remaster Nicole and that was dumb because they changed it from a perfectly good death. Tolle getting decapitated by a shield was pretty bizarre. To be honest, though, SEED is more famous for its improbable survivals, like those of Mu, Waltfeld, and Kira, than its improbable deaths. It still has plenty of silly melodrama, it's just slightly less closely linked to people dying.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:14
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To be fair, improbable survivals are actually a lot more common in media in general.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:16
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Yeah ZAFT isn't really Nazi-like except for the part where it's a eugenic wet dream society made of ubermensch. Also that basically every important plot character is a Coordinator and the main character is literally genetically perfect.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:16
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T.G. Xarbala posted:To be fair, improbable survivals are actually a lot more common in media in general. SEED does really stretch things even by those standards, though. Being vaporised by a giant antimatter cannon and having your cockpit literally melted around you are pretty difficult to survive, but our heroes still manage it!
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Apr 14, 2016 11:22
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Darth Walrus posted:SEED does really stretch things even by those standards, though. Being vaporised by a giant antimatter cannon and having your cockpit literally melted around you are pretty difficult to survive, but our heroes still manage it! mwu makes the physically impossible, possible because he's not a battleship, you see
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Apr 14, 2016 11:25
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T.G. Xarbala posted:To be fair, improbable survivals are actually a lot more common in media in general. In comparison SEED has Kira surviving the Aegis' explosion because...
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Apr 14, 2016 11:29
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Raxivace posted:Usually these survivals have some form of explanation though, even if it is just magic or whatever. *shrugs, mumbles, waves hand away in vaguely wigglish motions*
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Apr 14, 2016 11:46
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Raxivace posted:Usually these survivals have some form of explanation though, even if it is just magic or whatever. SEED's soap opera nature makes a bunch of the coincidences easier to swallow but dang they didn't even bother trying with that one.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:53
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Eej posted:Yeah ZAFT isn't really Nazi-like except for the part where it's a eugenic wet dream society made of ubermensch. Also that basically every important plot character is a Coordinator and the main character is literally genetically perfect. We were talking about the uniforms. ZAFT eventually were more Italian Fascist then end of WW2 Japanese desperation and later US style imperialism than NAZIs. Even then they know they are a genetic dead end, but a fair number of people deny it. It was a point of contention between Patrick Zala and Seigel Cylne. It was Zala that claimed that they were superior with Cylne going for an infinitely more equal relationship. Darth Walrus posted:Tolle getting decapitated by a shield was pretty bizarre. Tolle made a mistake and immediately paid for it unlike certain characters they linger around not matter how hated or useless they are. Showing his head coming off was really unnecessary though. You're right about the improbable survivals though. Waltfeld was the only one that had lasting damage. They didn't even try with Kira. Mwu is just that badass.
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Apr 14, 2016 12:11
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Apr 14, 2016 19:30
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Eej posted:Yeah ZAFT isn't really Nazi-like except for the part where it's a eugenic wet dream society made of ubermensch. Also that basically every important plot character is a Coordinator and the main character is literally genetically perfect. It's too bad they didn't follow up on the idea that hey, coordinator's aren't genetically diverse enough and is loving up their birth rates, but that get's mentioned once and never brought up again.
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Apr 14, 2016 19:41
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Monaghan posted:It's too bad they didn't follow up on the idea that hey, coordinator's aren't genetically diverse enough and is loving up their birth rates, but that get's mentioned once and never brought up again. What? That's literally Durandal's entire motivation in SEED D. He was sterile and Talia wasn't so they couldn't be together. It's strongly implied (and IIRC Astray almost explicitly states) that the original idea was "it's resolved by Coordinators and Naturals interbreeding" but welp.
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Apr 14, 2016 19:46
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am i the only person who thought Chickara Dual was a guy until now?
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Apr 14, 2016 19:50
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dogsicle posted:am i the only person who thought Chickara Dual was a guy until now? You are. She's the coolest pilot in G-Reco, in the coolest mobile suit.
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Apr 14, 2016 19:55
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Lemon-Lime posted:You are. She's the coolest pilot in G-Reco, in the coolest mobile suit. Hey, Mick exists.
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Apr 14, 2016 19:58
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oohhboy posted:You're right about the improbable survivals though. Waltfeld was the only one that had lasting damage. They didn't even try with Kira. Mwu is just that badass. I'd say that at least Mwu did lasting damage too, given that he became Neo in Destiny thanks to his survival. With the main cast just shrugging off all the poo poo he did as Neo and Mwu not being terribly concerned by it. Kira could be accused of doing damage too, since he seemingly died to Shinn, then survived and became a winning machine with no real character or arc who took over the show.
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Apr 14, 2016 20:03
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ImpAtom posted:What? That's literally Durandal's entire motivation in SEED D. He was sterile and Talia wasn't so they couldn't be together. Except his whole motivation isn't "Coordinator's aren't reproducing in great enough numbers, I should fix that." He was pissed that he missed his chance at happiness due to his being sterile and that all humans are ultimately ruled by their genes. .The idea of there being an existential threat to the coordinators never seems to be a major plot point.
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Apr 14, 2016 22:14
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tsob posted:I'd say that at least Mwu did lasting damage too, given that he became Neo in Destiny thanks to his survival. With the main cast just shrugging off all the poo poo he did as Neo and Mwu not being terribly concerned by it. Kira could be accused of doing damage too, since he seemingly died to Shinn, then survived and became a winning machine with no real character or arc who took over the show. For all the dumb poo poo in SEED Destiny, nothing gets me raging quite as hard as everything Mwu did as Neo being shrugged off.
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Apr 14, 2016 22:21
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holy poo poo this guy loves motorcycles so loving much he wants to make a BATTLESHIP MOTORCYCLE 
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Apr 14, 2016 22:36
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Kuvo posted:holy poo poo this guy loves motorcycles so loving much he wants to make a BATTLESHIP MOTORCYCLE Yeah Duker is the best character.
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Apr 14, 2016 23:56
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It almost works too. Earth is that messed up.
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Apr 15, 2016 00:13
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ZZ and Gundam X both have their first volumes up for pre-order.
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Apr 15, 2016 02:10
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CaptainYesterday posted:ZZ and Gundam X both have their first volumes up for pre-order. They have the second ones up too on RightStuf's website.
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Apr 15, 2016 02:19
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T.G. Xarbala posted:
I must say I wasn't even aware Wuxia was even a thing, so I checked it out. This should tell you that my opinons are equal to that of an uncultured swine, and you should not take them too seriously. I'm open minded and thus I still await for the super robot show to sway me over.
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Apr 15, 2016 05:53
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I watched f91 recently and man that opening of the gundam battle in the city is so drat good then it just turns so generic from there. It really is a bummer they forced that to become a movie rather than a series. A lot of wasted potential.
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Apr 15, 2016 06:29
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Uh... https://twitter.com/tendondon1/status/720492601690955777 You know what? Sure. I'll take it.
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Apr 15, 2016 15:28
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:Uh... gently caress it, I'm in.
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Apr 15, 2016 17:14
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Gundam Ball GZ? Count me in.
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Apr 15, 2016 17:24
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Cut scenes for the Dynasty Warriors Gundam Empire we'll never have  .
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Apr 15, 2016 18:45
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The_Rob posted:I watched f91 recently and man that opening of the gundam battle in the city is so drat good then it just turns so generic from there. It really is a bummer they forced that to become a movie rather than a series. A lot of wasted potential. I never really got why people think it had a lot of potential. To me it's just 0079 in a new coat of paint. A coat of paint that wouldn't even be half as nice if it actually got made in to a tv series. Main character is the newtype son of a mobile suit designer, he has a rival in a mask with a family member helping him despite that relationship, it has Guncannons and Guntanks, the Crossbone Vanguard act and want much the same as Zeon - I just don't see where the potential comes in. SEED I can understand, since the genetic war angle adds a new twist and the coorindators aren't as starkly evil as Zeon, since they didn't start the war and have both more reason to fight (actual rather than perceived persecution) and a genetic condition that adds some issue to them outright winning while the Feds are still sympathetic - at least, in conception. F91 I just don't see it though.
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Apr 15, 2016 19:03
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tsob posted:I never really got why people think it had a lot of potential. To me it's just 0079 in a new coat of paint. A coat of paint that wouldn't even be half as nice if it actually got made in to a tv series. Main character is the newtype son of a mobile suit designer, he has a rival in a mask with a family member helping him despite that relationship, it has Guncannons and Guntanks, the Crossbone Vanguard act and want much the same as Zeon - I just don't see where the potential comes in. SEED I can understand, since the genetic war angle adds a new twist and the coorindators aren't as starkly evil as Zeon, since they didn't start the war and have both more reason to fight (actual rather than perceived persecution) and a genetic condition that adds some issue to them outright winning while the Feds are still sympathetic - at least, in conception. F91 I just don't see it though. I think it's because that beginning scene is so good and scary. When the bullet casing falls down and kills the mom. That poo poo is harrowing. Like to actually see the amount of damage in the city is something you don't see very often so it was interesting enough to make me feel there was probably an interesting story there before they changed the format halfway through making it.
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Apr 15, 2016 19:15
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tsob posted:I never really got why people think it had a lot of potential. To me it's just 0079 in a new coat of paint. A coat of paint that wouldn't even be half as nice if it actually got made in to a tv series. Main character is the newtype son of a mobile suit designer, he has a rival in a mask with a family member helping him despite that relationship, it has Guncannons and Guntanks, the Crossbone Vanguard act and want much the same as Zeon - I just don't see where the potential comes in. SEED I can understand, since the genetic war angle adds a new twist and the coorindators aren't as starkly evil as Zeon, since they didn't start the war and have both more reason to fight (actual rather than perceived persecution) and a genetic condition that adds some issue to them outright winning while the Feds are still sympathetic - at least, in conception. F91 I just don't see it though. I don't see any of the similarities you point out? The Crossbone Vangaurd are pretty different from Zeon in style, ideology, and personalities (as well as sheer scale). Seabook is pretty different from Amuro, and is nicely different from other Gundam protagonists, being a young adult engineer from the start, and his mother's pretty different from Tem Ray. Cecily's a strong character too, and their relationship is one of like two that doesn't feel forced in all of Gundam. The actual story doesn't follow the usual route either, with a pretty different structure. Iron mask is a lot closer to Darth Vader than Char, we never got to actually see the rivalry between Seabook and Zabine/Dorel. There's also a lot of stuff that are only shown quickly, in one or two scenes (Seabook's dad dying, his sister, the other kids, etc.) that we don't know anything about other than the preproduction notes. I mean, F91 isn't at all like 0079 in structure, characters or style. All the similarities are at best skin deep.
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Apr 15, 2016 19:36
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