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thrawn527 posted:I mean, maybe the end of the movie, but the rest of the movie being about Stark's PTSD after New York kind of has a specific place. Him having PTSD sure, but I don't remember anything specifically that has to make it about the New York fight. Like, maybe minor dialogue needs to be changed, but you can easily have him freaking out over Sokovia flashbacks instead of (or in addition to) New York ones.
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Apr 14, 2016 17:36
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The best part of Iron Man 3 was the scene where RDJ gives the most blatant plug I have ever seen in a non-comedy film. He literally says "Downton Abbey. Sundays at 900 on PBS" to a nurse in the hospital. I wish I knew why this happened. I like to imagine it was some bizarre rider in RDJ's contract that they had to let him help out a buddy by shilling for their show on screen.
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Apr 14, 2016 17:37
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computer parts posted:Him having PTSD sure, but I don't remember anything specifically that has to make it about the New York fight. Like, maybe minor dialogue needs to be changed, but you can easily have him freaking out over Sokovia flashbacks instead of (or in addition to) New York ones. He has flashbacks to being in space, alone, and yeah, the dialogue mentions stuff about how proof of aliens means everything has changed. But if your'e saying that, if they took out any reference to what happened before, it can take place at any time, then sure, I guess. It's just a weird observation to make, since it's one of the few instances of the events of The Avengers having an actual effect on one of the characters in a different movie.
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Apr 14, 2016 17:39
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:The best part of Iron Man 3 was the scene where RDJ gives the most blatant plug I have ever seen in a non-comedy film. He literally says "Downton Abbey. Sundays at 900 on PBS" to a nurse in the hospital. I'm not sure PBS can afford RDJ
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Apr 14, 2016 17:41
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thrawn527 posted:He has flashbacks to being in space, alone, and yeah, the dialogue mentions stuff about how proof of aliens means everything has changed. But if your'e saying that, if they took out any reference to what happened before, it can take place at any time, then sure, I guess. Nah, you can still leave in the "proof of aliens" line. People flash back to "where it all went wrong" all the time. That's a major plot point in BvS even!
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Apr 14, 2016 17:41
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Burkion posted:That's just about the exact opposite problem of Rhonda playing Captain Marvel Haha get the gently caress out of here with that poo poo. Look at this clown who wants talent in the roles.
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Apr 14, 2016 17:48
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:That's fine. I'm totally comfortable saying that Stark will be back to his old arrogant self in subsequent movies. Marvel's system demands it. See I'm not even sure that this represents a departure from his old arrogant self, since "I admit I've made mistakes, but don't worry, I know exactly how to fix them, and why yes, it does involve everyone else also changing their behavior even though I'm the primary one that hosed up" feels pretty internally consistent with Tony Obviously this is all a little moot given Civil War ain't out yet, but I feel like it's important to acknowledge the spectrum of where they could feasibly go with it rather than defaulting to "it's Marvel, they'll be infuriatingly glib about it". And I say this as someone whose favorite Marvel movie is Iron Man 3, aka the one where Tony's cathartic and redemptive arc gets effetively tossed away the next time we see him In retrospect, the post-credits scene where Banner reveals he dozed off for most of the movie feels... unfortunately metatextual
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Apr 14, 2016 17:49
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I swear I was less irritated by this until IM3 came out, which had some actual resolution and development for the character that was immediately walked back.
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Apr 14, 2016 17:53
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:He's the king of Wakanda, so if anyone would get immunity I think it would be heads of state. Also, the clip says they'd be working under The U.N. As an African leader he probably views the current Avengers set up as another example of American imperialism and would welcome them being governed by an international body instead.
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Apr 14, 2016 17:54
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:I swear I was less irritated by this until IM3 came out, which had some actual resolution and development for the character that was immediately walked back. It's all on Whedon. IM's characterization and being back in the armor with no explanations. The Black Widow/Hulk nonsense despite the Russo's hinting at her and Hawkeye being a thing. Hawkeye's stupid family out of nowhere.
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Apr 14, 2016 17:54
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It's going to be hard to undue some of the things Whedon did, i'm glad he is no longer making Infinity War.
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Apr 14, 2016 17:59
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I said come in! posted:It's going to be hard to undue some of the things Whedon did, i'm glad he is no longer making Infinity War. Part of me wants them to pull an Ultimate Hawkeye and have his family brutally murdered. Which oddly enough is kind of the Whedon signature move.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:01
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I'm okay with ignoring continuity but only when interesting changes are made and not this pet character crap.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:04
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Terrible Horse posted:I'm not sure PBS can afford RDJ Oh no I meant that he hypothetically put it in his contract with Marvel to help out a friend who was an EP on the show or something.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:04
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:I'm okay with ignoring continuity but only when interesting changes are made and not this pet character crap. I like the rumor that Hawkeye's family was only introduced because Whedon wanted to work with Linda Cardelini.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:07
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I saw someone on another site talk about how a better idea for Hawkeye in Age of Ultron, would have been if he had a sister he was protecting, plus there would be that connection with Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver. Giving him a wife and kids was really weird.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:10
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the wife and kids were probably chosen specifically to reinforce the "hawkeye is gunna die" signaling the movie was trying to do. i mean, that's stupid, but that was probably Joss's reasoning.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:15
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Rhyno posted:I like the rumor that Hawkeye's family was only introduced because Whedon wanted to work with Linda Cardelini. I'm okay with that, just like I'm okay with Julie Delpy showing up randomly. But there's this thing called a movie I'm watching, try and stay focused, guys.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:15
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The Hawkfamily stuff was one of the few moments of AoU I enjoyed.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:17
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I don't care much about the character arcs between the movies anyway if they ignore them in service of theoretically making the next film better as a result, but I also don't see Tony saying "do as I say, not as as I do" to be some huge unbelievable thing. The whole first movie has him saying "I'm shutting down the Stark weapons division effective immediately, <because I have invented a superior weapon that I will only allow myself to use and I am good, unlike Lockheed-Martin>". You just know he'd change his tune overnight if the energy stuff didn't pan out and Stark Industries was going broke. There is also some vague argument to be made that if he had given the US Army suits after IM2, the NYC thing in Avengers would be over in 10 minutes after a swarm of 300 Iron Mans showed up on the scene instead of just one - maybe he is doubting himself more than he has before.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:18
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Rhyno posted:Haha get the gently caress out of here with that poo poo. Look at this clown who wants talent in the roles. I know, it's an alien concept, but maybe we should just try it once
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Apr 14, 2016 18:21
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:I swear I was less irritated by this until IM3 came out, which had some actual resolution and development for the character that was immediately walked back. Oh for sure. If Tony just shows up in every movie and makes the same mistakes and is generally a miserable hubristic prick, that's fine. That's maybe not a character I'm super interested in watching, but that's a character. But Shane Black navigated his arc in Iron Man 3 surprisingly deftly, and it's more than a little disappointing to have that walked back entirely without incident Like, I'd even be sorta alright with him backsliding on that character development if it was something that got addressed, like folks in Ultron are surprised that he's back on this megalomania poo poo because they thought he outgrew that. But as it is, it feels like they had a specific starting point in mind for Tony in each of the subsequent team-up movies, so the stuff that happened outside of them was expendable
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Apr 14, 2016 18:28
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Electromax posted:I don't care much about the character arcs between the movies anyway if they ignore them in service of theoretically making the next film better as a result, but I also don't see Tony saying "do as I say, not as as I do" to be some huge unbelievable thing. The whole first movie has him saying "I'm shutting down the Stark weapons division effective immediately, <because I have invented a superior weapon that I will only allow myself to use and I am good, unlike Lockheed-Martin>". Totally agree with all of this. I think where the argument originally came up because of the whole conceit of Civil War being "they both have good points, choose a side" and people pointing out that Stark seems to be unambiguously the villain. His side can still have merit even if he is being a hypocritical rear end in a top hat, but he hasn't been built up with this sympathetic character arc where his past mistakes are finally making him see the light.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:30
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Burkion posted:I know, it's an alien concept, but maybe we should just try it once Everyone knows HHH should've played Thor and John Cena should have been Captain America.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:33
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Rhyno posted:Everyone knows HHH should've played Thor and John Cena should have been Captain America. "You Can't See ME!" Cap shouts as he punches a Nazi/Hydra/Stark
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Apr 14, 2016 18:40
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You can argue that they didn't do Tony or Steve's arcs better, but saying there is none is definitely silly. It's pretty clear the intent is to have each of them start at a different end of the spectrum and each of their arcs results in them crossing each other to ultimately switch sides. It starts out: X---------------------------------------X Communitarian Libertarian (Cap) (Tony) Then the arcs follow: Tony Iron Man 1 - Tony is completely into individualism and autonomy. - He sees no problems with being an arms manufacturer, because his Dad created the company and he is, theoretically, in charge of it. He considers himself a good person, so bad things won't happen with his weapons. - Tony is humbled when his own weapons and involvement in the arms trade mortally wound him. - Tony is further humbled when the doctor tells the story of his family and village being murdered, which was enabled by Tony's products that he thought would only do good. - At the end of the movie Tony decides to shut down weapon production at Stark Industries, because he comes to realize that technology isn't neutral and that whoever owns it has a responsibility to the rest of the world. Tony inches slightly away from pure libertarianism Iron Man 2 - Tony is still a strong libertarian figure. - He now believes that he must keep the Iron Man suit to himself and it is his responsibility to use it to protect people. - He refuses to hand it over to the U.S. government, because after Iron Man 1 he no longer believes that technology can be truly neutral. If he is the only one who has the Iron Man tech and he is a good person, then the Iron Man tech will be a force of pure good. - Tony is humbled when he comes to realize that he cannot keep his tech isolated forever. His creation of the Iron Man suit and publicizing himself as Iron Man leads to Vanko wanting revenge for the stolen credit and ruining of his family. - Hammer also replicates his technology. - At the end of the movie, Tony realizes that his individual actions have consequences. His creation of the suit poisons him, impacts Pepper, and causes the deaths of dozens of people at the hands of Vanko. Tony inches further towards Communitarianism. The Avengers - Tony is now willing to be a part of a team. - He still is resistant to communitarian ideas. - Tony still doesn't trust any organization outside of himself. He hacks SHIELD immediately after being allowed on the helicarrier. (this sets up a conflict with him and Cap. Cap is angry that he could even think of spying on SHIELD. They are trying to help people for the greater good, what would they be hiding?) - Tony sacrifices himself for the greater good and goes into the portal with the nuclear bomb. - Tony comes back haunted by what he has seen and comes to believe that extreme action to protect humanity is justified. - This sets Tony up for Iron Man 3. Tony inches closer to communitarianism Iron Man 3 - Tony no longer believes that the suit is a tool to be used. He believes that he NEEDS it and that the world also needs protection like it on a global scale. - He begins to build dozens of suits for any and all potential disasters and seeks to control the world as much as possible to ensure the safety of himself and the entire world. - Extremis results in hundreds of people dying, Pepper almost dying, the President of the United States almost dying, and his best friend almost dying. - Extremis came about because of his previous libertarian behavior and selfishness. If he had cooperated with Killian like he initially wanted, none of this would have happened. - This is the third time Tony's libertarian ideals and selfishness have caused people to die. - At the end of the movie he comes to terms with the idea that technology does not define individuals. We are all in this together. - He destroys all the suits, because he accepts that he won't be able to be everywhere in the world at once for any potential disaster. Tony takes a significant step towards communitarianism Age of Ultron - Tony has created a drone army. - This is a direct result of his transition away from individual responsibility towards an ideal of collective protection and responsibility. - Ultron is supposed to be the culmination of his transformation. He is taking the responsibility completely out of his own hands. - Ultron is a monster and is partially made up of Tony's own personality. - Tony looks at himself in the mirror and is horrified and wracked with guilt. - Tony creates another being that is a completely rational and unemotional being (the complete opposite of himself) to defeat his dark image. - This is Tony completely abandoning his individualism / libertarianism. He makes a completely communitarian-minded creature that is literally the opposite of his Iron Man 1 / Ultron self in every way and turns over the power and responsibility completely to Vision. Tony takes the full leap and jumps completely in support of the idea of collective protection and collective responsibility. Civil War (Assumed) - Tony submits to collective protection and collective responsibility on an international scale. - This is the culmination of his complete rejection of his previous self. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 18:41
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That code box is loving up the layout of everything else.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:43
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I mean is anyone really surprised that Whedon would blatantly ignore something from previous films? IIRC The weirdo made Chris Evans wear the goofy Cap outfit from Avengers despite Chris begging to use the Winter Soldier outfit that the Russo's put effort into making look at least halfway decent. He doesn't seem to want anything to do with anything that didn't come out of his particular sandbox action figure play sessions. I'd be shocked if he didn't try to kill off both Maximoff twins behind the scenes. Mazzagatti2Hotty fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 18:48
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Great analysis Trotsky. I mean I should have guessed from the name but still
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Apr 14, 2016 18:51
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I think it's simpler: Tony is very aware of how flawed he is and when he fucks up. He is intensely driven to fix the problems he's caused due to his grave sense of personal responsibility. Whether he actually manages to fix anything rather than simply replace old problems with new ones is up to the viewer to decide - do note that he's ultimately right to be suspicious of SHIELD. Tony displays a self-awareness and ability for self-reflection that Cap entirely lacks. Cap is utterly and completely certain in himself, he does not ever question himself or doubt that he is doing the right thing. He may at times trust the wrong people, but Cap never pauses to consider whether or not he's right, or admit culpability for the negative consequences of his actions. Cap has moral and ethical purity. Tony has personal responsibility and, in his own twisted way vis a vis Cap, humility. Tony is never afraid to admit it when he's hosed up, and he's always first in line to fix the problems he's caused. Cap has never admitted he's caused any problems.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:53
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Cythereal posted:I think it's simpler: Tony is very aware of how flawed he is and when he fucks up. He is intensely driven to fix the problems he's caused due to his grave sense of personal responsibility. Whether he actually manages to fix anything rather than simply replace old problems with new ones is up to the viewer to decide - do note that he's ultimately right to be suspicious of SHIELD. I think that is a pretty good read of the situation, but the only "weakness" is that the movies explicitly frame Tony as loving up and being humbled. The movies (usually) don't present Cap as explicitly loving up, even though he is wrong all the time (trusted SHIELD, trusted the Army when they told him to just be a mascot, opposed the creation of Vision, looked the other way when Black Widow was doing shady things, defending a serial killer, etc).
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Apr 14, 2016 19:01
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It's official, Deadpool 2 is coming. Now with 100% more Cable.
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Apr 14, 2016 19:01
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Cythereal posted:Cap is utterly and completely certain in himself, he does not ever question himself or doubt that he is doing the right thing. He may at times trust the wrong people, but Cap never pauses to consider whether or not he's right, or admit culpability for the negative consequences of his actions. This is kinda the theory behind why Cap was almost able to lift Thor's hammer in Ultron.
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Apr 14, 2016 19:02
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:I mean is anyone really surprised that Whedon would blatantly ignore something from previous films? IIRC The weirdo made Chris Evans wear the goofy Cap outfit from Avengers despite Chris begging to use the Winter Soldier outfit that the Russo's put effort into making look at least halfway decent. Evans wanted to use the costume from The First Avenger, which Whedon overruled because he felt it wasn't comic-accurate enough. The Russos weren't in the picture at the time Avengers was made.
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Apr 14, 2016 19:05
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Timby posted:Evans wanted to use the costume from The First Avenger, which Whedon overruled because he felt it wasn't comic-accurate enough. The Russos weren't in the picture at the time Avengers was made. He means in Ultron. Evans wanted to use the Winter Soldier suit and Whedon wanted to use the Avengers 1 suit because it was more comics accurate and for continuity purposes.
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Apr 14, 2016 19:09
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Timby posted:Evans wanted to use the costume from The First Avenger, which Whedon overruled because he felt it wasn't comic-accurate enough. The Russos weren't in the picture at the time Avengers was made. The Avengers Suit wasn't comic accurate, what the gently caress is Whedon going on about
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Apr 14, 2016 19:10
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Whedon is a weird rear end dude and we can all be grateful he is gone now.
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Apr 14, 2016 19:10
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I kinda wish marvel hadn't blown their load so early with iron man by extending phase 1 and having two iron man movies out of a three movie contract happen before anything major occurs universe wise. We could've really used another im movie after aou.
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Apr 14, 2016 19:19
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gently caress Whedon
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Apr 14, 2016 19:44
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Pablo Gigante posted:gently caress Whedon Ew, no thank you.
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Apr 14, 2016 19:45
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