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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The problem is, as I said previous, that this is all really dull. In your subjective opinion. quote:nd its all ancillary in the movie, like the droid slavery or the characters' decisions. The movie is primarily about three people (Finn, Rey, and Ren) stumbling their way into traditional archetypes. The movie is about complexities being eliminated. If by standard archetypes you mean "functional members of society" then I guess? I mean I can see how Rey being an apathetic youth in a dead-end job in a poo poo society is more interesting, but it would probably get old watching an entire movie of her eating fake bread. It's more inspiring to have the millenial gain agency over their lives and enact change. quote:The viillains are more powerful than the heroes? That's not exactly a thrilling ideological statement. Jakku is socially barren? It actually isn't, the characters interact a lot, they just don't do anything interesting there. The movie is about Star Wars? That's just navel-gazing. The villains are -not- more powerful than the heroes. That's the entire point of the Starkiller sequence. The apparition of racist superweapons past is defeated in the short time it took for it to charge its batteries. Decrepit old conservative thinking is trounced by progressive change and the next generation. quote:This isn't any fault of yours. The movie is just kind of boring despite being competently made. It softens anything controversial, like the idea of a heroic stormtrooper or a bratty young Darth Vader. When I think softened controversy, I imagine Darth Girls murdering one of the series' most iconic characters (which was apparently a big enough controversy to mindbreak Cnut  ).quote:ANH, in comparison, is a movie that's just exciting. It crackles with tension. The rebel ship being overtaken by the Star Destroyer, the last stand against the stormtrooper, the creepy inhabitants of Tatooine, teenage frustratios, being stopped by the police, Satan leering on the screen, the trash compactor scene. It's fun as hell. That's a reflection of its time. The 70's was exciting and everyone felt like they were going to change the world with their rebellion. That kind of bombastic opening wouldn't gel with the period TFA intended to portray.
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Apr 22, 2016 17:27
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Ferrinus posted:You haven't made the slightest attempt to engage with or disprove anything prequel fans have said about the movie. Is this the part where we just declare counterfactuals for fun? Your forums username is MandingoMan and you registered in the year 1999. Last period
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Apr 22, 2016 17:29
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Up until now, I had thought the people claiming to revere the prequel trilogy were joking.
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Apr 22, 2016 17:29
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GlitchThief posted:Up until now, I had thought the people claiming to revere the prequel trilogy were joking. The prequels are interesting messes, TFA was well-produced nothing
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Apr 22, 2016 17:32
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Tezzor posted:Is this the part where we just declare counterfactuals for fun? Your forums username is MandingoMan and you registered in the year 1999. Last period You actually didn't, though. Remember, fans of the prequels read all these secret meanings into the film on the basis of what actually appears on the screen or comes out of the speakers. All you've got in response is stuff George Lucas said about it before or after the fact. There's no actual contradiction - if the conflict between Republic and Separatist is morally gray within the film itself, but Lucas says that it isn't, Lucas is just lying. He's hiding his secrets from us.
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Apr 22, 2016 17:33
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Everyone on the commentary track at the beginning of Revenge of the Sith talks about how the opening sequence ran way over budget and took way more time than expected and Lucas revised and threw out everything they made several times, to the point that even Channing-Tatum-In-This-Is-The-End cosplayer Rick McCallum was worried. The punchline comes at the end when the characters crash land on Coruscant and Ben Burtt says he had to cut 80% of the opening sequence so they could, and I quote, "get to the plot" lol
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Apr 22, 2016 17:36
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Ferrinus posted:You actually didn't, though. Remember, fans of the prequels read all these secret meanings into the film on the basis of what actually appears on the screen or comes out of the speakers. All you've got in response is stuff George Lucas said about it before or after the fact. There's no actual contradiction - if the conflict between Republic and Separatist is morally gray within the film itself, but Lucas says that it isn't, Lucas is just lying. He's hiding his secrets from us. That's an interesting theory. Another is that Lucas is neither an ascended genius nor impossibly consistent master manipulator, and your interpretation is merely nonsense.
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Apr 22, 2016 17:38
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I think the amount you hate the prequels is equal to the amount you feel obligated to hug and squeeze and defend TFA. "Because my identity hinges on prequels being the worst movies ever, I must embrace Disney's patent marketing nuke, The Force Awakens." Tezzor's laundry list of false dichotomies is a good example of this. "How can the Jedi be good guys and also corrupt? If Anakin blames himself according to the director, how can other characters be to blame for his mother's death? If the makers said they made Watto sympathetic, how can it be that the movie implies slavery is bad?" et cetera. I guess those are puzzlers if the only movies you watch feature good guys in white and villains with half a baby sticking out of their mouths.
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Apr 22, 2016 17:38
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GlitchThief posted:Up until now, I had thought the people claiming to revere the prequel trilogy were joking. This thread is more interesting if you read it as certain posters trolling everyone into liking the prequels. Star Wars fans are a naive malleable bunch.
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Apr 22, 2016 17:38
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Neurolimal posted:In your subjective opinion. Which is the truth. You just need to consider how stagnant and inward-looking the idea of "a movie about the Star Wars franchise" is. Neurolimal posted:If by standard archetypes you mean "functional members of society" then I guess? I mean I can see how Rey being an apathetic youth in a dead-end job in a poo poo society is more interesting, but it would probably get old watching an entire movie of her eating fake bread. It's more inspiring to have the millenial gain agency over their lives and enact change. They become a Resistance Member, a Jedi Apprentice, and? Maybe the next movie will subvert that, but that just means TFA is incomplete. And the idea of generation conflict doesn't make sense, since the heroes doesn't represent a new generation and the villains don't represent the old. It's not even a question of revolutionaries vs the establishment, they have even less social context than the Rebellion and the Empire. The heroes and villains are both young people led around by elders. Or do you really think the movie is about how Baby Boomers are Nazis who can't keep up with the smartphone generation? Neurolimal posted:When I think softened controversy, I imagine Darth Girls murdering one of the series' most iconic characters (which was apparently a big enough controversy to mindbreak Cnut When was that ever controversial? A controversial decision would be, say, making Han Solo a despicable villain. Neurolimal posted:That's a reflection of its time. The 70's was exciting and everyone felt like they were going to change the world with their rebellion. That kind of bombastic opening wouldn't gel with the period TFA intended to portray. This shows that you haven't really even thought your reading through. The movie is about how a new generation overthrows the old one, but it's also supposed to feel staid?
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Apr 22, 2016 17:39
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multijoe posted:The prequels are interesting messes, TFA was well-produced nothing See what I mean? Interesting readings and discussions of TFA are ignored to objectively state that TFA is completely empty.
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Apr 22, 2016 17:40
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Tezzor posted:That's an interesting theory. Another is that Lucas is neither an ascended genius nor impossibly consistent master manipulator, and your interpretation is merely nonsense. This isn't my theory, it's yours! Your premises are that the Star Wars prequels are rife with secret meanings (you are unable or unwilling to actually refer to the movies themselves in order to dispute this notion) and that Lucas says otherwise. What else are we to conclude? A bajillion dollar operation over the course of however many years creates three movies consistently expressing these themes by accident? That Lucas has merely conspired to trick you is much more likely.
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Apr 22, 2016 17:40
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Wait wait, Neurolimal, your reading of TFA is that it reassures millenials of their superiority. It isn't dull after all, it's hilarious. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Apr 22, 2016 |
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Apr 22, 2016 17:42
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homullus posted:I think the amount you hate the prequels is equal to the amount you feel obligated to hug and squeeze and defend TFA. "Because my identity hinges on prequels being the worst movies ever, I must embrace Disney's patent marketing nuke, The Force Awakens." Corruption is actually a word that means something. The Jedi are not corrupt. The Jedi are blind dumb hypocritical idiots who act irrationally. This was not intentional. The intent was to make them Good Guys tricked and betrayed by Bad Guys. They came out blind dumb hypocritical idiots who act irrationally because the author is incompetent.
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Apr 22, 2016 17:43
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Ferrinus posted:This isn't my theory, it's yours! Your premises are that the Star Wars prequels are rife with secret meanings (you are unable or unwilling to actually refer to the movies themselves in order to dispute this notion) and that Lucas says otherwise. What else are we to conclude? A bajillion dollar operation over the course of however many years creates three movies consistently expressing these themes by accident? That Lucas has merely conspired to trick you is much more likely. The idea that George Lucas is actually incompetent and surrounded by kissasses who don't challenge him is so unthinkable to you that you think it's instead all part of the plan and he's not just a total genius but in fact a double-genius who planted 14 hours of commentary track to trick people into thinking he's an idiot. How many dimensions of chess is the man playing?
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Apr 22, 2016 17:47
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Neurolimal posted:See what I mean? Interesting readings and discussions of TFA are ignored to objectively state that TFA is completely empty. People have been making interesting readings of TFA? Sorry, I must have missed those between all the inane discussion Millenials and New Star Wars.
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Apr 22, 2016 17:48
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Ferrinus did God plant the dinosaur bones to test our faith
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Apr 22, 2016 17:49
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Which is the truth. You just need to consider how stagnant and inward-looking the idea of "a movie about the Star Wars franchise" is. This ignores that the movie ties Old/New Star Wars to the new/old generations and their ideals. You're essentially deciding to latch onto one aspect you might find questionable and repeating it like it were a soundbite. quote:They become a Resistance Member, a Jedi Apprentice, and? Maybe the next movie will subvert that, but that just means TFA is incomplete. They become a free citizen, an engaged and energized youth, and a progressive force effectively in control of the galaxy (or at least what the Republic controlled of it). It's a complete arc unless you boil them down to what their Jobs are. quote:And the idea of generation conflict doesn't make sense, since the heroes doesn't represent a new generation and the villains don't represent the old. It's not even a question of revolutionaries vs the establishment, they have even less social context than the Rebellion and the Empire. The heroes and villains are both young people led around by elders. Or do you really think the movie is about how Baby Boomers are Nazis who can't keep up with the smartphone generation? Older generations organize the opposing forces, but it's the youth who have -chosen- to rally behind them. To compare it to modern times; just because Sanders is nearly 80 years old doesn't mean that his campaign isn't a campaign of 18-35 YO leftists. They have more context than ANH provided; First Order is a group of xenophobic soldiers wishing to return the galaxy to the Empire/1950's. They indoctrinate their members and are callous about are troops survival. The Resistance is separate from the centrist Republic, treats other races and droids as equals, and aids in the defense of local peaceful communities (such as Maz's Cantina). I guess taking extreme offense to the notion that your generation might not be the center of attention anymore works too. quote:When was that ever controversial? A controversial decision would be, say, making Han Solo a despicable villain. He's an absent father and incapable of reading his sons' mental state. Even that much has been controversial if you bother to read some of the readings within this thread. I highly recommend Cnut's; even when I disagree strongly he still attempts to make an argument that is entertaining to read. quote:This shows that you haven't really even thought your reading through. The movie is about how a new generation overthrows the old one, but it's also supposed to be staid and I'm completely consistent. The period in question is now.
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Apr 22, 2016 17:49
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multijoe posted:People have been making interesting readings of TFA? Sorry, I must have missed those between all the inane discussion Millenials and New Star Wars. There's no shame in accepting that a quality piece of art does not interest you. You are not a lesser viewer for not being appealed. You do not need to find a way to declare it Inferior.
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Apr 22, 2016 17:51
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Tezzor posted:The idea that George Lucas is actually incompetent and surrounded by kissases who don't challenge him is so unthinkable to you that you think it's instead all part of the plan and he's not just a total genius but in fact a double-genius who planted 14 hours of commentary track to trick people into thinking he's an idiot. How many dimensions of chess is the man playing? Again, this is your theory, not mine. You can't dispute that these "secret meanings" are all there... but you're sure that Lucas explicitly and repeatedly disavows them all. It's the only sensible analysis.
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Apr 22, 2016 17:52
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Neurolimal posted:There's no shame in accepting that a quality piece of art does not interest you. You are not a lesser viewer for not being appealed. You do not need to find a way to declare it Inferior. But, to use your own words, this cuts both ways doesn't it?
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Apr 22, 2016 17:52
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Wait wait, How did I suggest that? If anything, TFA starts with millenials believing they are incapable of affecting their conditions. they go on to become the energized youth that Luke grew from. If you see that as becoming "Superior" to BravestOfTheLamps, that says more about you than the film.
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Apr 22, 2016 17:52
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Basebf555 posted:But, to use your own words, this cuts both ways doesn't it? Sure, that's been my argument in this thread for a while. it's fine if he doesn't like it, but it's an absurd self-fulfilling prophecy to suggest that there's nothing in TFA worth talking about so lets not talk about TFA to show that there's nothing in TFA worth talking about.
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Apr 22, 2016 17:53
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Neurolimal posted:Sure, that's been my argument in this thread for a while. it's fine if he doesn't like it, but it's an absurd self-fulfilling prophecy to suggest that there's nothing in TFA worth talking about so lets not talk about TFA to show that there's nothing in TFA worth talking about. So then it would be absurd to say that there's nothing worth talking about in the prequels correct?
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Apr 22, 2016 17:56
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Basebf555 posted:So then it would be absurd to say that there's nothing worth talking about in the prequels correct? Indeed. You will not find anything contradictory to this in my posts. The prequels are interesting in how they are flawed and how solid the overall ideas are in spite of its execution.
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Apr 22, 2016 17:57
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Ferrinus posted:Again, this is your theory, not mine. You can't dispute that these "secret meanings" are all there... but you're sure that Lucas explicitly and repeatedly disavows them all. It's the only sensible analysis. It's not a secret that the characters in the prequels are dickhead idiots. Everyone recognizes that, from their biggest critics to most odoriferous apologists. The critics use these as sources of comedy and evidence that the films are bad. The apologists say that this is intentional as a way to critique the entire structure and presuppositions, and therefore good and smart. The fact that it is not intentional dismantles their argument. Did God put the dinosaur bones there to test our faith, Ferrinus?
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Apr 22, 2016 18:01
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"Millenials" don't live in a postwar desert harvesting scrap metal from destroyed tanks. In a film with interplanetary radio communication, Rey doesn't even have a cel-phone. Your reading needs to be based on the text. A commentary track is itself a text. When Portman explains that he character likes 'bad boys' over the image of a distraught Anakin, it's to explain how the character got caught up in this bad situation - not that the character loves genocide. Literacy is important!
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Apr 22, 2016 18:01
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Millenials are between 17 and 35 years old.
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Apr 22, 2016 18:02
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:"Millenials" don't live in a postwar desert harvesting scrap metal from destroyed tanks. Actually, my pompous, unsubstantiated fanon - I'm sorry, "reading"- is that she was imagining the tuskens as Palestinians.
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Apr 22, 2016 18:03
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Neurolimal posted:This ignores that the movie ties Old/New Star Wars to the new/old generations and their ideals. You're essentially deciding to latch onto one aspect you might find questionable and repeating it like it were a soundbite. You're saying the movie is based on American middle-class unemployment and political partisanship, which is about the dullest idea for a space movie I've ever seen even if it were true. The movie isn't about how Sanders supporters are good and righteous and about how Republicans are Nazis. Neurolimal posted:He's an absent father and incapable of reading his sons' mental state. Even that much has been controversial if you bother to read some of the readings within this thread. I highly recommend Cnut's; even when I disagree strongly he still attempts to make an argument that is entertaining to read. It was disagreeable to one person. This is hardly controversial. It's in fact a twist that tons of people were expecting. Neurolimal posted:I'm completely consistent. The period in question is now. You're saying that the movie isn't exciting because the 2010s aren't exciting, which is about the dumbest observation I've ever seen. And holy poo poo, Neurolimal posted:I guess taking extreme offense to the notion that your generation might not be the center of attention anymore works too. Neurolimal posted:How did I suggest that? If anything, TFA starts with millenials believing they are incapable of affecting their conditions. they go on to become the energized youth that Luke grew from. If you see that as becoming "Superior" to BravestOfTheLamps, that says more about you than the film. you've convinced yourself that I'm a Baby Boomer  And you lecture to people about being unable to accept other people's viewpoints
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Apr 22, 2016 18:07
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Did Padme ever tell anyone about Anakins racist mass murder?
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Apr 22, 2016 18:09
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Unironic use of the term 'Millenial' should be a bannable offence imo
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Apr 22, 2016 18:09
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Tezzor posted:It's not a secret that the characters in the prequels are dickhead idiots. Everyone recognizes that, from their biggest critics to most odoriferous apologists. The critics use these as sources of comedy and evidence that the films are bad. The apologists say that this is intentional as a way to critique the entire structure and presuppositions, and therefore good and smart. The fact that it is not intentional dismantles their argument. Did God put the dinosaur bones there to test our faith, Ferrinus? Whether something is "intentional" has nothing to do with what it means or whether it is good, Tezzor. Nobody actually cares what George Lucas is thinking but you, though I do appreciate that you've picked up the slack to the point of connecting thumbtacks with colored yarn. The reason you've retreated to talking completely about the inner thoughts and feelings of one rich fat guy is that you can't actually talk about the movies themselves. You're not even trying any more and you're hoping that nobody notices!
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Apr 22, 2016 18:10
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:"Millenials" don't live in a postwar desert harvesting scrap metal from destroyed tanks. I didn't expect SMG to reach a point where he's arguing face value, but here we are. BravestOfTheLamps posted:You're saying the movie is based on American middle-class unemployment and political partisanship, which is about the dullest idea for a space movie I've ever seen even if it were true. The movie isn't about how Sanders supporters are good and righteous and about how Republicans are Nazis. Do you believe all young people are middle-class? Or are you applying your own bias due to an irrational hatred of the next generation? quote:It was disagreeable to one person. This is hardly controversial. It's in fact a twist that tons of people were expecting I'm glad we are deferring to the nebulous and always-agreeable Tons Of People. Who should I link or quote that would count to you? quote:You're saying that the movie isn't exciting because the 2010s aren't exciting, which is about the dumbest observation I've ever seen. Jakku isn't exciting because the situation that millenials are going to have dropped in their laps isn't exciting, it's depressing. Where the film gets is exciting is when the youth decide to tackle said situation and stop playing with old toys. quote:you've convinced yourself that I'm a Baby Boomer You could also be a Gen Xer. You're either from a generation disconnected from the newest generation, or conditioned to hate your own generation. multijoe posted:Unironic use of the term 'Millenial' should be a bannable offence imo Bizarre hatred of young people is pitiful
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Apr 22, 2016 18:14
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speaking of clunky exposition, the second line of dialogue in the prequels is the most dishonabaru space chinaman saying "As you know..."
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Apr 22, 2016 18:21
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wyoming posted:I really do feel like "Ben" was supposed to the be an "I am your father" twist. And that Snoke scene and Han and Leia scenes were reshoots, for whatever reason.
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Apr 22, 2016 18:26
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Neurolimal posted:I'm glad we are deferring to the nebulous and always-agreeable Tons Of People. Who should I link or quote that would count to you? Han Solo's death isn't controversial, because a mentor's death has been a series standard since A New Hope. Neurolimal posted:Jakku isn't exciting because the situation that millenials are going to have dropped in their laps isn't exciting, it's depressing. Where the film gets is exciting is when the youth decide to tackle said situation and stop playing with old toys. You've lost sight of your argument. I said rather straight-forwardly that TFA isn't exciting, and you've began arguing that Jakku specifically isn't supposed to be exciting because millenial life is full of disappointment and dread. You've forgotten that this is a space adventure movie. That it's not very exciting is a flaw. Neurolimal posted:Do you believe all young people are middle-class? Or are you applying your own bias due to an irrational hatred of the next generation? Neurolimal posted:You could also be a Gen Xer. You're either from a generation disconnected from the newest generation, or conditioned to hate your own generation. Again, you lecture to others about accepting different viewpoints but also theorize about how I'm a meanie Gen Xer or "mIllenial conditioned to hate myself"
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Apr 22, 2016 18:27
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repeatedly, especially in The Phantom Menace, Lucas notes a scene on screen and says "this scene is really good" or "I like this scene," and then goes on to explain that what he likes about the scene is that it has all digital characters or they made a pan shot out of two non-pan shots or they composited a shot out of many different shots. This is not an exaggeration. These are the only scenes he specifically notes as being good, and not because they have good acting or characterization, but because they have some visual effect he likes
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Apr 22, 2016 18:28
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Han Solo's death isn't controversial, because a mentor's death has been a series standard since A New Hope. Han has never been a mentor before, and its clear from posters ITT that its possible to miss that Han is being Rey's surrogate father figure. Additionally, I'm not sure why this scene must be controversial to be effective, impactful, interesting, or exciting. quote:You've lost sight of your argument. I said rather straight-forwardly that TFA isn't exciting, and you've began arguing that Jakku specifically isn't supposed to be exciting because millenial life is full of disappointment and dread. Jakku is not the entirety of the film. quote:You've forgotten that this is a space adventure movie. That it's not very exciting is a flaw. quote:Again, you lecture to others about accepting different viewpoints but also theorize about how I'm a meanie Gen Xer or "mIllenial conditioned to hate myself" Perhaps you should just say "I''m [thing]" instead of hoping someone reading right now is going "YEAH! Right on sister!". Millenials are not deserving of intense scorn, and a film saying "millenials should be hopeful and push for change" is not declaring their superiority over you.
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Apr 22, 2016 18:34
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Han Solo shouting 'BEN!' was really powerful, the way he delivered that line and how it echoes off the room. Great line reading by Ford.
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Apr 22, 2016 18:36
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