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Dude, you can multi-quote in one post.
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Apr 24, 2016 16:58
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"Blind, are we, if the creation of this clone army we did not see." Don't be so down on yourself, little guy. Your magic is being blocked by the vague powers of the Dungeon Master's super smart and cool villain who's always two steps ahead, and how else were you really going to know about the completely private business taking place on some isolated planet whose existence is being actively covered up by a wizard who is also the President? If you want to be critical, how about, blind are we that nobody can figure out that wizard president is bad while we stand right next to him as we talk about how a sith is controlling the senate
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Apr 24, 2016 17:09
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Do you like the Original Trilogy?
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Apr 24, 2016 17:18
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Dooku's plan should make no sense to the characters in the films. So somebody is trying to kill Padme, the lead senator opposed to the military creation act. Obi Wan tracks down the assassin, who is working with the cloners who work for the Republic, but also is working at a high level for the Separatists. Maybe by itself this doesn't imply any greater plot, maybe he doesn't care who he works for and just takes whatever job is available. But why would the Separatists want Padme dead? If I was a racist cartoon character in that board meeting I would ask why we're killing Padme. Like Nute I know you got beef with her because you got beat up by a 14 year old girl but that's your problem buddy. Haha, why is this idiot still even here, seriously. Anyway hold on *eats a space watermelon with my giant lips* so listen, wouldn't assassinating the chief senator opposed to the creation of the army make it a lot more likely they they would make an army, especially if they pin it on us? Why do we want them to have an army? Couldn't we just secede without incident if they didn't have an army? That's what we want, right? Oh, we actually want to conquer them? That's fine, shouldn't we still want them to not have an army for as long as possible? I say let her stay in there voting down the army until they surrender. If we're going to assassinate somebody why not somebody who's for the army? Oh lawdy loo
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Apr 24, 2016 17:39
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Tezzor posted:the Sith have been dead for 1000 years and there's been almost total peace for that same amount of time. Where did you get that from (the latter part)? Tezzor posted:The "heroes on both sides" line makes no sense, is supported by nothing we are shown, and is so laughably contradictory that even George's professional apologist Rick McCallum says it made no sense and he did not buy it. It is contradictory, to your reading of the films. But my point was it obviously didn't get there by accident. It's an example of how the films don't match your interpretations of the intentions behind them. Lord Krangdar fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Apr 24, 2016 |
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Apr 24, 2016 17:40
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Lord Krangdar posted:Where did you get that from (the latter part)? It's not directly stated in the films themselves that the Republic hasn't been at war but the fact that they don't even have a military and are generally opposed to even the existence of a military until a war starts brewing is a big tip off. Primarily I base this claim from George's claim on the commentary track that when the Republic came into existence they ended all wars through democratic representation. Why do people keep saying the word "accident?" It's a weird strawman. I don't believe Lucas threw a bunch of magnetic letters at a board and by accident they spelled out THERE R HEROS ON BOTH SIDEZ, I think he went "hm that would be a cool thing to put in" and nobody challenged him and told him it was a stupid contradictory thing that didn't belong in the movie
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Apr 24, 2016 17:52
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Tezzor posted:Why do people keep saying the word "accident?" It's a weird strawman. I don't believe Lucas threw a bunch of magnetic letters at a board and by accident they spelled out THERE R HEROS ON BOTH SIDEZ, I think he went "hm that would be a cool thing to put in" and nobody challenged him and told him it was a stupid contradictory thing that didn't belong in the movie I know you don't actually think it got there by accident, but you don't seem to want to accept it as intentional either. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to claim that Lucas "wanted to make a film with clear delineations of Good Guys and Bad Guys". Contradictory to what, exactly?
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Apr 24, 2016 17:56
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Stacks posted:Do you like the Original Trilogy? I did! I liked it a lot. I also really liked The Force Awakens, with reservations mostly centered around the dumb third death star, but I really liked or loved the characters, acting, aesthetics, humor, and the effects except for the two CGI characters. There was some clunky dialogue ("she's on the Millennium Falcon with your father.......Han Solo" uhh he knows who his father is and the audience already knows who's on the Millennium Falcon so unless Chewie is his father there no other option) but it was generally fine. Lord Krangdar posted:I know you don't actually think it got there by accident, but you don't seem to want to accept it as intentional either. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to claim that Lucas "wanted to make a film with clear delineations of Good Guys and Bad Guys". Contradictory to everything else he actually showed us and his explicit and repeated statements. There are no heroes on the side of the Separatists we ever see and he repeatedly says they are "bad guys" and "evil." Tezzor fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Apr 24, 2016 |
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Apr 24, 2016 17:57
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Tezzor posted:no it isn't quote:NUTE : Yes, yes, of coarse...ahhh...as you know, our blockade is perfectly legal, and we'd be happy to recieve the Ambassador...Happy to. This is never disputed. The Senate is paralyzed by debate, so there is a legal basis for the blockade. The Trade Federation also want Amidala to sign a treaty to make the invasion legal. This means that the Republic will allow for corporations to invade planet under its legal process. Also, the Republic is corrupt: quote:PALPATINE: Enter the bureaucrats, the true leaders of the Republic, and on the payroll of the Federation, I might add.
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Apr 24, 2016 18:02
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Gundam is a good franchise. Tomino's stuff gets too overblown by some people (I really hate Victory and G-Reco) but his good stuff is probably still some of the best in the franchise (Turn A and Zeta).
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Apr 24, 2016 18:02
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Tezzor posted:Contradictory to everything else he actually showed us and his explicit and repeated statements. There are no heroes on the side of the Separatists we ever see and he repeatedly says they are "bad guys" and "evil." I can't think of anyone on either side I would call heroic, personally. Regardless, the inclusion of that line tells us that this is not just a simplistic black vs. white story. Which matches what we actually see in the three films.
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Apr 24, 2016 18:03
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I just want to quote this againTezzor posted:11. On "heroes on both sides" BravestOfTheLamps posted:This is never disputed. There is a legal basis for the blockade. Nute is lying, the blockade is not legal. They invade because they need her to sign a treaty to indemnify them. That whole idea makes no loving sense, but presumably if they have a signed treaty saying Amidala was totally cool with them invading and it was all just a big misunderstanding haha and Amidala doesn't pipe up with "that makes no sense you idiots" then I'm not sure what the Republic could or should do about it. We can't trust anything Palpatine says, especially as he is saying this to nakedly manipulate a naive and stressed out teenage girl that the Naboo have seen fit to elect as their supreme leader for some reason
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Apr 24, 2016 18:07
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That quote makes it sound like Lucas intended the line to hint at something "very complicated and quite profound", which again contradicts your idea that the story was intended to be a simplistic black and white good vs. evil conflict. That McCallum didn't understand doesn't mean we can't.
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Apr 24, 2016 18:13
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Lord Krangdar posted:I can't think of anyone on either side I would call heroic, personally. Regardless, the inclusion of that line tells us that this is not just a simplistic black vs. white story. Which matches what we actually see in the three films. It tells us that George thought it would be a good idea to put a line to that effect in his movie because Serious Considerations without considering or being told that it was contradictory to everything else he had shown the audience and told everybody who was working on the films, because he is an idiot surrounded by yes-men who will say "this is one of those classic moments...I asked George how long we have been at war with Eurasia, and he gave me this very complicated and profound answer...but the last shred of my humanity is still there and I could not win the war over myself, I could not buy that we had always been at war with Eurasia."
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Apr 24, 2016 18:13
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Lord Krangdar posted:That quote makes it sound like Lucas intended the line to hint at something "very complicated and quite profound", which again contradicts your idea that the story was intended to be a simplistic black and white good vs. evil conflict. That McCallum didn't understand doesn't mean we can't. It means he bloviated some incoherent nonsense that even the man paid to be his biggest fanboy didn't buy you daft imbecile "His answer was very complicated and profound, but at the same time, unconvincing and didn't make sense." *makes daffy duck bebebebebe motion* Tezzor fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Apr 24, 2016 |
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Apr 24, 2016 18:14
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Tezzor posted:It tells us that George thought it would be a good idea to put a line to that effect in his movie because Serious Considerations without considering or being told that it was contradictory to everything else he had shown the audience and told everybody who was working on the films, because he is an idiot surrounded by yes-men who will say "this is one of those classic moments...I asked George how long we have been at war with Eurasia, and he gave me this very complicated and profound answer...but the last shred of my humanity is still there and I could not win the war over myself, I could not buy that we had always been at war with Eurasia." At this point you're not interpreting that line or even the Prequel trilogy as a whole, you're warping everything around your adherence to this pre-conceived narrative of Lucas and the yes-men. Once you've gotten that idea in your head maybe it makes sense to interpret everything through that lens, but what made you get stuck on that story in the first place? Tezzor posted:It means he bloviated some incoherent nonsense that even the man paid to be his biggest fanboy didn't buy you daft imbecile But you're moving the goal-posts now. Did Lucas intend the Prequels to tell a simple story of clear good and evil, or not? The quote you posted hints at the latter. Whether you think his attempts to tell a deeper story are pretentious nonsense doesn't change whether he did or did not attempt that.
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Apr 24, 2016 18:17
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Apr 24, 2016 18:22
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here's Interesting Reading: Naboo is the Pedo Planet. It's where all the galaxy's pedos go to practice their choice of lifestyle free from criticism. We see this from its Classical Grecian/Roman aesthetic, the fact that Padme entertains 8 year old Anakin's romantic advances and later enters into a sexual relationship with him, why they elect a creepy unmarried man as their Senator, and why they have teenage girls in elaborate costumes as their leaders, because the primary voting bloc is really really into being dominated by skinny teens dressed like an anime. everyone please treat this barely substantiated and unnecessarily grim and stupid fanfiction as settled fact from this point forward
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Apr 24, 2016 18:24
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Lord Krangdar posted:At this point you're not interpreting that line or even the Prequel trilogy as a whole, you're warping everything around your adherence to this pre-conceived narrative of Lucas and the yes-men. Once you've gotten that idea in your head maybe it makes sense to interpret everything through that lens, but what made you get stuck on that story in the first place? He did attempt to tell the prequels as a simple story of good and evil, yes. He said dozens of things to that effect, and wrote something in contradiction to that. He did not write this as a hidden message to the audience. He wrote it because he is an idiot and nobody will challenge him on any drat fool idea that pops into his head
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Apr 24, 2016 18:27
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Apr 24, 2016 18:30
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:How do you know they aren't speaking the truth? They're both obviously manipulative, but there's nothing to contradict those statements. Palpatine only rises to power because what he says is true and the Republic is dysfunctional. The Senate was paralyzed by the debate about the blockade. Uh, no. The Trade Federation is stalling for time to get the treaty signed. If Nute was telling the truth and the blockade was actually legal then why do everything he did: panic, try to kill the Jedi negotiators, invade and try to get the treaty signed to make his actions legal. These are not the actions of a person who thinks they're on the right side of the law or that the government was in his hands. If he actually believed what he was saying he should have sauntered in like a mob boss and been like gently caress off Qui Gon I'm doing nothing wrong and half the Senators are on the take anyway so what are you gonna do
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Apr 24, 2016 18:33
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Chickenfrogman posted:Gundam is a good franchise. Tomino's stuff gets too overblown by some people (I really hate Victory and G-Reco) but his good stuff is probably still some of the best in the franchise (Turn A and Zeta). Victory is very uneven, but G-Reco is actually legit great.
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Apr 24, 2016 18:34
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Apr 24, 2016 18:37
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Yaws posted:Dude, you can multi-quote in one post. You wanted this Yaws. Be careful what you wish for 
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Apr 24, 2016 18:44
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Lord Krangdar posted:Where did you get that from (the latter part)? The Jedi knights were "guardians of peace and justice" in the old Republic, and the Republic stood for 1000 years. From these two statements, Tezzor concludes that there was no violence or injustice in the Republic for 1000 years. This is why the topic of slavery is a sticking point: slavery is violent and unjust but the Jedi are okay with it. Tezzor reconciles this by concluding that slavery is peaceful and just. Where you and I would use this as a basis for a critique of the Republic ideology (i.e. the Jedi's definition of justice is inadequate to address the truth of the droids' suffering), Tezzor does not understand ideology and differing points of view. The goodness of slavery is an objective, scientific fact in the Star Wars universe. The universe objectively rewards slavery, and objectively delivers no consequences. Certain races are objectively inferior and droids, objectively, do not suffer. Tezzor concludes from this that the universe has a flawed creator-God: George Lucas. Interviews and DVD commentary tracks are literally the word of God, and that is why he has been studying them. As a clear-cut example of how this thinking works: when Tezzor sees Anakin the child slave, in Episode 1, he says "look at how peaceful this child is. Look at how just his slavemaster is. God created this happy scene and smiles upon it." Tezzor's only complaint here is that this 'happy' universe' doesn't match his 'commonsense universe'. According to 'commonsense', slaves can't be happy, so if Anakin looks happy it's because he isn't a slave and Lucas only used the word 'slave' because he's an idiot who wanted money(?), and [it goes on like this]. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Apr 24, 2016 |
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Apr 24, 2016 18:45
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Correct, they are using the legal process to make their actions legal after the fact. They are afraid of the Jedi foiling things, and since they're frigthened they follow Sidious's command. Uhhh, didn't you just say the blockade was legal? Now you are arguing that it was illegal but the Republic is still bad because if the person you committed the crime against indemnifies you in writing they won't do anything about it? I mean I guess that is bad, for some values of bad. If Exxon demolishes my house and I write a thing that says "I wanted Exxon demolish my house so it's fine" (and never contradict this which is a big flaw in the stupid plot George thought up) the government is probably not going to punish Exxon anyway. It's important to dispute these overwrought characterizations of everybody being Corrupt Sellout Conformists Man And Like The World Is poo poo Anyway So Who Cares If I Smoke because interpreting everything as badly as possible is a way to support the stupid theory that George meant to do this all along, because the worse we say our good guys are the more implausible it is that he actually meant to make them good guys. It's a way to say "yes, these characters are horrible idiots, in fact, they're even more horrible than you say, they are so horrible and stupid that no waaay someone could have meant to write them as anything else." A way to acknowledge the terrible writing, characterization and concepts and reappropriate them as deliberate and therefore a brilliant subversion. Except for one small problem: They were not deliberate. The lynchpin is pulled and the argument falls apart which is why they have to do poo poo like double down on the absurdity by postulating that the commentary tracks were an elaborate ruse to fool us Tezzor fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Apr 24, 2016 |
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Apr 24, 2016 18:48
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The Jedi knights were "guardians of peace and justice" in the old Republic, and the Republic stood for 1000 years. From these two statements, Tezzor concludes that there was no violence or injustice in the Republic for 1000 years. This is why the topic of slavery is a sticking point: slavery is violent and unjust but the Jedi are okay with it. Tezzor reconciles this by concluding that slavery is peaceful and just. I didn't say there was no violence or injustice. I said there was no war. Therefore, the rest of this stupid pretension falls apart. Lucas said there was no war for 1000 years. That seems implausible, sure, but why are you yet again bringing the twin monsters of Common Sense and outside logic to the holy Reading?
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Apr 24, 2016 18:54
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Tezzor posted:I didn't say there was no violence or injustice. I said there was no war. No, you said there was "almost total peace". You can lack peace while also lacking war.
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Apr 24, 2016 18:55
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MonsieurChoc posted:Victory is very uneven, but G-Reco is actually legit great. I really don't like everything about G-Reco. I hate the characters, I don't like the weird as gently caress pacing, I don't like the scattered and fragmented and narrative, I just don't like anything about it besides some of the soundtrack. I get why people like it and it's fine if people do, but I utterly can't stand it at all and I almost dislike it more then I dislike SEED Destiny.
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Apr 24, 2016 18:56
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Tezzor posted:He did attempt to tell the prequels as a simple story of good and evil, yes. He said dozens of things to that effect, and wrote something in contradiction to that. He did not write this as a hidden message to the audience. He wrote it because he is an idiot and nobody will challenge him on any drat fool idea that pops into his head Who said anything about "hidden"? All you need to do to see that the films aren't a simple story of good vs. evil is to watch them. The line "there were heroes on both sides" is not a hidden message, its right there on the screen in giant yellow letters. BravestOfTheLamps posted:Correct, they tell a simple story of good and evil. There are no good guys in the prequels.
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Apr 24, 2016 18:58
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computer parts posted:No, you said there was "almost total peace". You can lack peace while also lacking war. 2bong
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Apr 24, 2016 18:58
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Lord Krangdar posted:Who said anything about "hidden"? All you need to do to see that the films aren't a simple story of good vs. evil is to watch them. The line "there were heroes on both sides" is not a hidden message, its right there on the screen in giant yellow letters. We are told and not shown this and it is contradictory to everything else he shows us and tells us both in the films and the explanations of the films, and it is therefore devoid of meaning beyond "George Lucas thought it would be cool to put that part in"
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Apr 24, 2016 19:00
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Tezzor posted:Uhhh, didn't you just say the blockade was legal? Now you are arguing that it was illegal but the Republic is still bad because if the person you committed the crime against indemnifies you in writing they won't do anything about it? Correct. The blockade and invasion of planets can be justified under the legal process. It is legal for corporations to blockade planets. Of course the process can be turned against them, which is why the Neimoidians resort to violence when Sidious commands them to do so.
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Apr 24, 2016 19:03
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Correct. The blockade and invasion of planets can be justified under the legal process. It is legal for corporations to blockade planets. It is legal for corporations to destroy houses if they can produce written consent on a legal document
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Apr 24, 2016 19:04
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Tezzor posted:here's Interesting Reading: Naboo is the Pedo Planet. It's where all the galaxy's pedos go to practice their choice of lifestyle free from criticism. We see this from its Classical Grecian/Roman aesthetic, the fact that Padme entertains 8 year old Anakin's romantic advances and later enters into a sexual relationship with him, why they elect a creepy unmarried man as their Senator, and why they have teenage girls in elaborate costumes as their leaders, because the primary voting bloc is really really into being dominated by skinny teens dressed like an anime. everyone please treat this barely substantiated and unnecessarily grim and stupid fanfiction as settled fact from this point forward Actually it's the apartheid planet, but that's neither here nor there.
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Apr 24, 2016 19:06
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Lord Krangdar posted:There are no good guys in the prequels. That is why they lose.
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Apr 24, 2016 19:12
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Toilet Mouth posted:Actually it's the apartheid planet, but that's neither here nor there. The sad thing is that Tezzor sometimes comes very close to being right and then veers sharply into the nearest wall. He correctly identifies Naboo as a decadent resort planet, correctly identifies Padme's uncomfortable mother/son dynamic with Anakin, correctly identifies the authoritarian leanings of the Naboo people, correctly identifies Senator Palpatine's latent despotism.... Then he dismisses all these truths as absurd, and goes back to fixating on George Lucas.
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Apr 24, 2016 19:45
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Lord Krangdar posted:There are no good guys in the prequels. If that's true then they're significantly worse than I thought.
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Apr 24, 2016 19:49
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I always thought the more accurate line would have been, "there are no heroes on any side." Like, who's heroic here? Conehead guy?
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Apr 24, 2016 19:58
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porfiria posted:Like, who's heroic here?
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Apr 24, 2016 20:01
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