Neurolimal posted:

I'm not saying Palpatine could kill Windu at any moment, only that Palpatine is only momentarily helpless as a result of Windu's decision to execute him. While Windu has no intention if keeping Palpatine alive, there is no situation at that point where he can even do so. If the idea is to incapacitate him, then Windu is not yet at that point seeing as he immediately kills Windu once he's disarmed (hah). If the point is to stop and demand he comply, well thats kind of silly considering what we now know, and considering that they did that in the first place; we're at the "or else" part.

Since you bring up traditional films, in this scenario the hero would go "I shant kill this helpless knave!", then said Helpless Knave pulls out a concealed weapon as the hero leaves, and the hero turns around and kills him (in Virtuous Noble Self Defense). Windu is incapable of doing this as a result of the scenario in question, and the end results would have been exactly the same.

EX-GAIJIN AT LAST posted:

At that point Palpatine has already won. Windu and the Jedi should never have let it get to that point and it's far too late for anything good to happen in that room.

Toilet Mouth posted:

Windu was wrong to take the law into his own hands and go to "arrest" Palpatine to begin with.

Neurolimal posted:

He had evidence that Palpatine was manipulating both sides; theres nothing substantial to support the idea that the Jedi would not arrest him in a civil fashion.

As for whether or not he took the law into his own hands: Jedi in the Republic fulfill the role of a standing army, lawful negotiators, and political bodyguards. There's plenty of ways to justify or explain the head of the Jedi Council taking the role of Police Officer arresting the chancellor. Especially if it's all he does and leaves the senate to fill the power vacuum.

Neurolimal posted:

I agree, like the RLM review itself said: there were plenty of heroic and just ways to foil Palpatine beforehand. I'm just saying that Windu didn't make a mistake in this scenario: it was try to execute the geriatric lightning rod, or die.

Tezzor posted:

No, absolutely not. Even if it were intended as a deconstruction of heroic myth or whatever, the acting, characterization, dialogue and cinematography would remain unconscionably terrible and that's without getting into the question of whether we should really be yelling "give us hell, Quimby"

Neurolimal posted:

Because they are not omniscient nor omnipotent?

Toilet Mouth posted:

Whether he had legal standing or not, he put himself and the Jedi in a compromising position. We laugh at the senate falling for Palpatine's story about the Jedi staging a coup, but to anyone who doesn't know the facts (which is everyone), what else would it look like?

If what they're doing is legitimate, don't do it in secret in the cover of night.

Neurolimal posted:

I'm just saying that Windu didn't make a mistake in this scenario: it was try to execute the geriatric lightning rod, or die.

Prolonged Priapism posted:

Then why is Mace talking about the corrupt courts? In that moment Mace believes it's possible to put Palpatine in Space Jail, he just thinks that Palpatine would Space Lawyer his way out of it, and succeed in remaining the secretly evil dictator. If Mace believed it was kill or be killed, that's what he would have shouted to Anakin.

Anakin was already in Mace's position - after he defeated Dooku at the start of the film. Anakin wants to put Dooku on trial, but Palpatine convinces him that he's too dangerous to be left alive. Anakin and Mace are both wrong to attempt a killing blow on a helpless opponent.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Actually, those weren't the options.

Palpatine just absorbed Windu's hate, becoming more powerful than ever.

Windu's two main options were to let go of his attachment to the Order and run away, as Yoda did, or he could die violently in a futile effort to retain his power.

And those were not the only options because Windu could have done what Vader did: let go of his attachments and kill Palpatine.

Elfgames posted:

but doing this thing is their job? they should know weather or not an option exists all of them think it does even the guy being arrested believes he can be brought in what evidence do you have to say it isn't?

Neurolimal posted:

The evidence that Palpatine's capability to fight back is only harmed by the current act of killing him. The moment the threat to his life ends he immediately returns fire lethally.

Elfgames posted:

you mean after mace is literally disarmed and the situation is changed dramatically?

Neurolimal posted:

Ideally, rational abstract philosophical readings should follow rational literal face-value events. Otherwise the reading becomes strained and reliant on the viewers' attachment to the reading.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

That's literally what happens. Windu had the option, at that moment, to admit that he was after power: more power for the Jedi Order. More power for the Republic. More power for himself. (The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way, including their quest for greater power). Because the way to kill Palpatine is the give up your power.

Vader gave up all his power by allowing himself to be electrocuted. And once he made that choice, Palpatine just vanished.

Windu had that option too.

Neurolimal posted:

Hell, the attempt to arrest him only happens after he learns that Palpatine is a Sith Lord, which speaks more about the gravity of a Sith Lords' power than a powerlust.

Neurolimal posted:

Changes: Mace's Lightning stops.

If I recall the scene correctly, the scene is depicted as Windu and Palpatine pushing against each other's lightning (with Mace overcoming Palp). What stops Palpatine from starting again after Mace stops? Let alone the instant blast he does that pushes Mace out the window?

Are they just going to have Mace fight his lightning (but not hard enough to kill palpatine) while they hold the trial around the window?

Actually, that would make for a funny skit.

Lord Krangdar posted:

The council votes to depose Palpatine before learning about that.

Elfgames posted:

so even though the characters all state that they can, they cant actually stop him because he has a gun.

Neurolimal posted:

But they only "move quickly if the jedi are to survive" after learning of his sith trait. For all we know they were going to let the old human guy go through the long bureaucratic way before that (and then they would be dead without an arrest attempt. Because of Order 66).

Neurolimal posted:

This lust for power isn't depicted in the film though; the closest would be the Clone Army, which Yoda refuses until he has to begrudgingly use it to save Obi/Padme/Anakin.

Hell, the attempt to arrest him only happens after he learns that Palpatine is a Sith Lord, which speaks more about the gravity of a Sith Lords' power than a powerlust.

I guess fighting the Federation counts? But that was a war instigated by the Federation, currently fought to a resource-consuming standstill.

He could have ran, but then he'd be abandoning his duties and the fate of the republic to Dracula. Doesn't exactly speak well of him.

Lord Krangdar posted:

I think its pretty explicit that they were going to remove him from office through force, not through bureaucracy. Otherwise they would have gone to the senate, not to his office.

Neurolimal posted:

Uh. Yeah? I mean imagine this in a realistic setting; if 3 people go "we're capable of taking this guy in alive!", yet said guy is at a distance with a loaded gun aimed at them, you dont think "why aren't they taking this guy in alive?"

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Windu doesn't have a "lust for power". He simply wants power, as all the Jedi do. That's just a statement of fact.

And Palpatine's thing is always that he takes advantage of those who want power.

Windu wants power to protect the Order, the Senate, the Republic, his job, and himself. It's exactly the same was how Anakin wants power to protect Padme. Lucas uses the metaphor of killing someone's soul to preserve their body - that's what Windu does to the Jedi Order.

Elfgames posted:

yeah that's a completely different scenario because 1.) the bad guy has agreed that it's possible to keep him from shooting everyone 2. he's already been subdued he's not at a distance he's on the ground with a gun in his face. 3.) every time a jedi has a sith at mercy they are told that killing them "is not the jedi way" so something else must logically be the jedi way

edit. Also star wars is not realistic it is a fairytale.

Neurolimal posted:

The simplest translation of body vs. Spirit would be Power vs. Values, yes?

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Windu is explicitly motivated by fear. He's fighting to protect a system he doesn't believe in:

Anakin: He must stand trial.
Windu: He has control of the senate and all the courts. He is too dangerous to be left alive!

Why doesn't Windu work to create a legal system that doesn't fall apart the minute it encounters someone 'too dangerous'?

Neurolimal posted:

Within the concept of the film; he would still fail and die once Order 66 starts and Anakin is corrupted.

Within the abstract: because Windu does not believe in strongarming the universe towards his beliefs; which has been used before when talking about Tattooine

G-III posted:

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

What? I'm not sure what you are saying here.

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

Look at the unbridled race hate on Qui-Gonn's face.

Neurolimal posted:

The Jedi dont stop slavery because stopping slavery would require brute forcing society towards their whims. It's their disconnection from enforcing their will on the universe that allows them to function as officers, negotiators, and bodyguards.

It's also why Anakin was so disastrous: he couldn't let go of Tatooine.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

You're saying it's bad to force slavemasters to stop owning slaves, because doing so would disrupt society. A society where slavery is normal.

It's too risky.

SHISHKABOB posted:

Yes these are identical scenes. Everything about them is the same.

Prolonged Priapism posted:

In ROTS Palpatine is cowering and whimpering, in ROTJ he's gleefully torturing Luke to death.

Like even if you think the Zodiac killer should be put to death, isn't there a difference between a cop killing him in his home as he crawls away vs killing him as he's actively murdering someone?

EX-GAIJIN AT LAST posted:

There are quite a few moments in the prequels that fall flat for me for various reasons, but I can't fathom thinking they're "unconscionably terrible" when the parts I don't like, on a subjective level, are still just moments scattered through some otherwise perfectly fine Star Wars movies.

I also can't fathom hating something so much, especially a few movies, that I have to spend hours on the internet daily trying to prove to people who consider it at least worth talking about how wrong they are and that it's in every way complete poo poo.

I mean if there were a thousand-page thread on here about how there's actually some artistic merit to Battlefield: Earth I would be like, that's weird, and either go on my way or maybe read the thread for a bit to try to understand why. I might ask questions, even pointed questions, and I might never get why they think that way, but what's the point of arguing this strenuously? Is it personal to you somehow?