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Neurolimal posted:It's not enforcing the status quo; like I said, if the people or even just the droids start an uprising, it should be fine for the jedi to support it. The military wing of the republic shouldn't be taking over the senate and enforcing their own laws. I'm surprised this is even controversial among leftists. We have already seen an uprising involving droids. How would you interpret the overwhelming representation of droids within the separatist army compared with the republics? What does this say about the creation and use of the clones in relation to, their mirror, the droid armies? Take time to think about what this is saying in light of the recent discussion about the republic, the jedi and slavery. The jedi were blind to the creation of a clone army, they do(did) not see them. Throughout the prequels the separatist droid army becomes increasingly diverse. The war has disrupted a thousand year peace(inertia, in-action, status quo), think about this.
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Apr 25, 2016 08:33
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no he's not defending slavery, he's condemning a violent war to free slaves. gotta think about those poor confeder... tatoonians.
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Apr 25, 2016 08:34
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I know basic arguments like "slaves should be free NOW" and "corporations do not represent people" are difficult for you, but you do realise you're defending slavery, right? Are you in favor of invading Saudi Arabia or the UAE? I'm asking because they literally practice slavery. Today. In modern times. brawleh posted:We have already seen an uprising involving droids. How would you interpret the overwhelming representation of droids within the separatist army compared with the republics? What does this say about the creation and use of the clones in relation to, their mirror, the droid armies? Take time to think about what this is saying in light of the recent discussion about the republic, the jedi and slavery. The trade federation abuses their droids to perform the vast majority of their labor even before the war. They are all linked to a spaceborn Kill Switch. This is not a droid uprising. These are living shields to protect slavemasters. I've already made prior posts about how the clones do not display traits inherent with enslavement.
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Apr 25, 2016 08:39
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Neurolimal posted:I never said racism was over in TFA. I thought you wrote that the droids are no longer slaves in TFA. If so: are the droids being paid for their work? Do they have equal rights? Does capitalism even exist anymore? Things are getting weird in a lot of ways. Only (some) Republic citizens are eligible for jedi protection? Droids don't count as 'the people'? Neurolimal posted:Are you in favor of invading Saudi Arabia or the UAE? You are presuming that the only way to fight slavery is for the United States(?) to invade a country. It's a pseudo-opposition. We are against oppression in all its forms.
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Apr 25, 2016 08:52
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 08:56
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Again, you're losing sight of what you're arguing. SuperMechagodzilla posted:I thought you wrote that the droids are no longer slaves in TFA. If so: are the droids being paid for their work? Do they have equal rights? Does capitalism even exist anymore? How have both of you failed to read any part of my last like, 5 posts that have said "if the slaves revolt then the jedi should aid them" It's like you've realized the awful position you've put yourself in and are looking for a way out of just conceding a really bad stance. And no, I said progress was made in TFA. Droids in TFA still face a number of perils, including reclaimers.
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Apr 25, 2016 08:59
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 09:00
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Why aren't the Jedi organising and aiding a slave revolt? The answer is that, again, the police/military shouldn't be exerting control over the state. If the people of the republic want droid rights they should push for them instead of waiting for the police to enforce their own moral code. As for individual jedi, sure, Dooku was capable of leaving the Jedi, and could happily support droid rights if he wanted.
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Apr 25, 2016 09:02
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 09:07
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You're avoiding the question. Because the culture they have been raised in does not view droids as sentient. Was every american citizen prior to the rise of abolitionism objectively bad? Every saud, every arab?
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Apr 25, 2016 09:09
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 09:16
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Neurolimal posted:How have both of you failed to read any part of my last like, 5 posts that have said "if the slaves revolt then the jedi should aid them" Exactly right, now stop reacting and take time to think about these two images and the war waged upon an army of droids with an army of clones. While keeping in mind that it all comes back to truth about the republic, the jedi, slavery and most importantly a childs dream.   The further visual diversity of the droid army as the overall story progresses is a very important piece of storytelling.
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Apr 25, 2016 09:18
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brawleh posted:Exactly right, now stop reacting and take time to think about these two images and the war waged upon an army of droids with an army of clones. While keeping in mind that it all comes back to truth about the republic, the jedi, slavery and most importantly a childs dream. The droids become more warlike as the federation transitions from loader robots to war machines. Peaceful droids are warped into living weapons. This is not a rainbow of diversity, the only shade used is red. The clones paint their armor, discuss their lot as citizens, joke and bond with their Jedi generals, and display characterized bodily quirks. The imagery presents an implication the film fails to support.
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Apr 25, 2016 09:22
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:We are talking about all slaves: droids, humans, and aliens. I have argued that they grow up in a flawed society. You want to devolve what could be a complicated situation to fit a childlike mentality actively harmful to equality. At least, I most certainly wouldn't want you defending my right to marriage and adoption, if your approach is at all similar to your advocacy for totalitarian action.
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Apr 25, 2016 09:24
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Neurolimal posted:Because the culture they have been raised in does not view droids as sentient. So you are defending the Jedi's enforcement of slavery on the basis that the Jedi are extremely racist.
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Apr 25, 2016 09:26
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 09:28
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:So you are defending the Jedi's enforcement of slavery on the basis that the Jedi are extremely racist. I am defending the Jedi's enforcement of the will of the people on the basis that there has historically never been an instance of a military force successfully fighting unanimous societal resistance and its own government to implement equal rights, let alone a successful one, let alone without a guarantee of support from the oppressed.
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Apr 25, 2016 09:30
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 09:31
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Neur: you keep repeating that the Jedi are police, or 'the military wing of the Republic'. Since when? The individual Republic worlds each have their own military and police forces. The Jedi are an interplanetary peacekeeping organization.
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Apr 25, 2016 09:34
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:How so? The jedi willingly enslave themselves mentally and emotionally to the republic. Your notion that they are well-read politically aware figures is the inverse of the truth, as is explicitly shown in the films themselves. From childhood oneards they are taught to be protectors of the republic. They do not care about freeing the slaves because the people of the republic do not care about freeing the slaves. Anakin's mother dies after being freed. Anakin is tricked into supporting Palpatine because of a fear for his family. Both AotC and RotS very clearly show the flaws in training Anakin after he has embedded himself in tatooine.
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Apr 25, 2016 09:34
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You just said that the Jedi do not view droids as sentient to absolve them of choice. This of course requires ignoring the slaves that aren't droids. Because qgain, they have been raised in a society that downplays the abhorrent nature of slavery, which is why they dont leave the jedi order. The jedi order in turn enforces the will of the republic, which does not overall care for the plight of the enslaved. The flaws of the jedi are inherent to the flaws of the people.
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Apr 25, 2016 09:36
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Neur: you keep repeating that the Jedi are police, or 'the military wing of the Republic'. Since when? They protect political figures, spearhead rescue missions, aid in the defense of republic planets from invasion, and eventually lead the clone army.
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Apr 25, 2016 09:38
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 09:40
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Neurolimal posted:The droids become more warlike as the federation transitions from loader robots to war machines. Peaceful droids are warped into living weapons. This is not a rainbow of diversity, the only shade used is red. You do realise that by not thinking and reacting, you've turned a revolt involving a diverse depiction of droids into one of 'Peaceful droids' being warped into living 'war machines'. Here's another chain of visuals progressing to think about. Trade Federation ships are sphere surrounded by a ring, with the image of a solitary ship being defeated at the end. By the formation of the separatist alliance they've simply become spheres, that are being shot down before they can get off the ground. Finally when waging war on the republic they've been absorbed into a rebel fleet.    This a continuation of the droid visual diversity, this is great visual storytelling. But you have to stop reacting with abstract thoughts and think about these images. brawleh fucked around with this message at 11:21 on Apr 25, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 09:44
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Neurolimal, you're making a better case for the Jedi's evil than anyone of us pretentious literati could ever hope to.
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Apr 25, 2016 09:45
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The Jedi are not slaves. They are free to leave, like Dooku. They make a choice to stay because of their upbringing within the temple. The people of the republic hold an unjust stance. Dissolving the republic achieves nothing in changing their stance. quote:
Shmi could not follow him even if she was not a slave. Anakin was fully capable of utilizing his resources to move her off of Tatooine. The real error was in Qui-Gon allowing his bias towards Shmi and Anakin influence his decisionmaking, resulting in the training of a child unprepared for the pressures of a jedi knight, and leaving an old woman without family to protect her. Qui-Gon's sympathy convinces him to bend the rules and exploit his role, which leads to the downfall of the Jedi. Good intentions do not mean good actions.
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Apr 25, 2016 09:46
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brawleh posted:You do realise that by not thinking and reacting, you're turned a revolt involving a diverse depiction of droids into one of 'Peaceful droids' being warped into living 'war machines'. Here's another chain of visual progressing to think about. Trade Federation ships are sphere surrounded by a ring, with the image of a solitary ship being defeated at the end. By the formation of the separatist alliance they've simply become sphere, that's being shot down before they can get off the ground. Finally when waging war on the republic they've been absorbed into a rebel fleet. All of which depicting warlike machinations in defense of a corpulent race of slothful traders. There are strong similarities in the imagery here to the creation of the Uruk-Hai in Lord of the Rings films; the brutality of enslavement and manipulation on the part of the slavemasters corrupts both.
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Apr 25, 2016 09:49
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 09:51
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Correct. The Jedi should help a slave revolt to establish an equitable state. Once again you have struck upon the correct moral path. I have not "struck" upon anything. I have worded my posts clearly and expressed my point multiple times. The people must change before the jedi can change. This has always been my stance. You are patting your own back for realizing that you agree with me once you drop your interventionist tendencies. If we keep this pace up, I might be able to go to bed as early as 6AM. quote:Anakin does not do so, because he has adopted the Jedi mindset of not caring about evil. He does not do so because the original intention prior to TPM's reception was for Anakin to be a child;at best a preteen. quote:You have also realised that the Jedi are not doing good. They accomplish good throughout the prequels. They are restricted by the status of the republics' citizens. Good and Perfect are not enemies. It is no mistake that the jedi only free Naboo after Padme, representive of the people, persuades the Senate.
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Apr 25, 2016 09:56
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 10:03
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Neurolimal posted:Because qgain, they have been raised in a society that downplays the abhorrent nature of slavery, which is why they dont leave the jedi order. The jedi order in turn enforces the will of the republic, which does not overall care for the plight of the enslaved. The flaws of the jedi are inherent to the flaws of the people. Wait so now you're defending the Jedi's enforcement of slavery on the basis that they are just following orders? No matter how abhorrent, the Jedi are merely enacting the will of the majority? It's puzzling to think that we're talking about something as straightforward as 'not putting bombs on children's heads and forcing them to work to death'. Imagine pushing for a more meager goal like 'the Jedi should enforce a higher minimum wage and free daycare for working moms'. (That would be fascist!) SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 10:08 on Apr 25, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 10:05
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"Who are we grant you equality and thus go against the will of the majority?"
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Apr 25, 2016 10:09
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Okay, so maybe the Jedi really are just a bunch of jerks who don't want to do anything about slavery. Slavery is really bad! So what exactly is supposed to be the draw of the prequels, if all the main characters are people that we really shouldn't like? Just the pretty visuals? It's no wonder some people don't like these movies.
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Apr 25, 2016 10:10
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The Jedi are free. They are free to leave behind the "police/military" to fight for freedom and justice. They are indoctrinated at an early age, and even without indoctrination would have grown up in a society blind to the plight of the enslaved. You are demanding that they progress faster than society before you will entertain the idea that the jedi are good. How many slaves do you see in the Jedi temple? quote:He goes to check on his mother in defiance of the Order's command to just guard Amidala. He could have defied them at any time prior to transport her to Naboo. His defiance is his primary trait; to read that he didn't help her because of cruel jedi teachings and not immaturity to the world is a strange reach. And again. She is free when she dies. She does not die in slavery. He does not do this because he is likely aware that she is free, and unaware of any danger she could face.
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Apr 25, 2016 10:11
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Quad City CJ posted:*brushes teeth with han solo toothbrush, hydrates with Kylo Ren lotion* Not only am I barely 20 years old or so and catch a game it looks like a dumb bastard. Quad City CJ posted:*makes jerking off motions* We're going to have an uncannily accurate luke skywalker outfit
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Apr 25, 2016 10:12
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Wait so now you're defending the Jedi's enforcement of slavery on the basis that they are just following orders? No matter how abhorrent, the Jedi are merely enacting the will of the majority? I am defending their role on the basis that they can only act upon the will of the people; you are naking the mistake of reading this as "the jedi are innocent" instead of "the citizens of the republic are flawed". There are many flawed people on this real-life earth, some that will ocerreact to misreading another's statements and stubbornly run logic loops for an hour to find a way to be correct. You should be aware of the possibility for a flawed person to be good.
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Apr 25, 2016 10:13
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MrSmokes posted:Okay, so maybe the Jedi really are just a bunch of jerks who don't want to do anything about slavery. Slavery is really bad! the jedi are good people but they are caught in a lovely system, their failing is that they don't fight this system.
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Apr 25, 2016 10:15
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 10:19
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Elfgames posted:the jedi are good people but they are caught in a lovely system, their failing is that they don't fight this system. Also like, movies with morally repugnant ppl are still win
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Apr 25, 2016 10:19
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Neurolimal posted:All of which depicting warlike machinations in defense of a corpulent race of slothful traders. There are strong similarities in the imagery here to the creation of the Uruk-Hai in Lord of the Rings films; the brutality of enslavement and manipulation on the part of the slavemasters corrupts both. You're getting confused, the Separatist Alliance is not the Trade Federation. Now here is where "heroes on both sides" comes in, but differing perspectives are no substitute for the truth. The Trade Federation representatives come to the realisation they've been used by a 'Sith' lord and gladly accept the refuge offered by former 'Jedi master' Count Dooku. Stop being a reactionary and really think about this. You're constantly getting distracted by details and ignoring the wider implications(negative space) of what you're saying. This all comes back to the importance of a child's dream, the dark humor of which is realised to be a nightmare, think about this dialogue in relation to the imagery. Anakin: I had a dream I was a Jedi. I came back here and freed all the slaves...have you come to free us? Qui-Gon : No, I'm afraid not... Mace Windu : He is too old. There is already too much anger in him. Qui-Gon : He is the chosen one...you must see it. Yoda : Clouded, this boy's future is. Masked by his youth. What does this say about the jedi order and by extension the republic in relation to slavery? Yes you are answering these questions in a very immediate sense. But you need to spend some time and really think about the truth of your answers to these questions. brawleh fucked around with this message at 10:31 on Apr 25, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 10:27
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