EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

Pluskut Tukker: May 20, 2012

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Are you telling me a person in favor of the UK leaving decided not to use Switzerland and Norway as examples, and instead went for a bunch of post-Communist countries?

Yes.

quote:

Britain will move outside the EU�s single market and instead join �Bosnia, Serbia, Albania and Ukraine� in a European free-trade zone if voters choose Brexit in June�s referendum, according to a vision outlined on Tuesday by Michael Gove.

The pro-Brexit justice secretary for the first time confirmed that the Leave camp did not want Britain to remain part of the EU�s tariff-free bloc of 500m consumers in which British-based banks can trade under a �passport� scheme. He insisted the UK�s financial services sector would �thrive� in this new environment.

He said Britain would forge its own deal with the EU, but said that a continent-wide free-trade area � embracing a wide range of bilateral deals � would �be the core of our new arrangement�.

(I'd already forgotten about this until LemonDrizzle reminded me - too much craziness from Vote Leave to remember)

# ? Apr 25, 2016 16:35

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# ? May 13, 2024 21:51

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Austrians, 2016: please stop calling it the Austrian School we don't want to be associated with these slobbering morons.

# ? Apr 25, 2016 16:37

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Pluskut Tukker posted:

You're saying that Luxemburg's prosecution of the whistleblowers is in line with the EU trade secrets directive, which has been passed to grant firms stronger protection against industrial espionage and has been criticised for failing to grant sufficient protection to whistleblowers, and which was broadly approved by the EU Council which includes Germany.

Yes, "prosecution of whistleblowers" is consistent with "failing to protect whistleblowers", I'm glad you realized that denying defense is a sort of offense.

Pluskut Tukker posted:

But then again, Germany in turn doesn't really want to protect against espionage but helped pass the directive anyway to benefit Boeing, even though Germany effectively owns 11% of the shares in Airbus. I'm really confused now.

You missed it?

# ? Apr 25, 2016 16:37

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Pluskut Tukker posted:

Yes.

(I'd already forgotten about this until LemonDrizzle reminded me - too much craziness from Vote Leave to remember)

It still sounds like someone who has pretended to adopt a position in an effort to undermine it. You have a lot of words saying "leave", but then the little detail people will actually hear, screaming "DON'T!". On the other hand, politicians...

# ? Apr 25, 2016 16:46

Pluskut Tukker: May 20, 2012

Cat Mattress posted:

Yes, "prosecution of whistleblowers" is consistent with "failing to protect whistleblowers", I'm glad you realized that denying defense is a sort of offense.

You missed it?

The point is that approving stronger protections for trade secrets, with the stated goal of defending against industrial espionage, is not on its face reconcilable with conducting industrial espionage. Also, governments are not unitary actors in all contexts. Finally, the whole trade secrets directive clearly wasn't necessary for the Luxemburgians to be able to go after whistleblowers; Luxemburg being a financial centre ensured that that would happen anyway, just like Switzerland went after Herv� Falciani.

(edit: to be clear, I'm all for the abolition of Luxemburg, seeing as its very creation was a historical accident that could be rectified in very short order

# ? Apr 25, 2016 16:49

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Are you telling me a person in favor of the UK leaving decided not to use Switzerland and Norway as examples, and instead went for a bunch of post-Communist countries?

It's kinda problematic for them to cite those countries, because they also had to agree to free movement of labour, which is one of the core issues for the leave campaign. But just last week the mayor of London and key figure in the leave campaign claimed that Obama spoke out against a Brexit, because of his Kenyan heritage which makes him hate the British Empire.

# ? Apr 25, 2016 16:54

Plucky Brit: Nov 7, 2009; Swing low, sweet chariot

GaussianCopula posted:

It's kinda problematic for them to cite those countries, because they also had to agree to free movement of labour, which is one of the core issues for the leave campaign. But just last week the mayor of London and key figure in the leave campaign claimed that Obama spoke out against a Brexit, because of his Kenyan heritage which makes him hate the British Empire.

That sounds hilarious. Source?

# ? Apr 25, 2016 17:02

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

Plucky Brit posted:

That sounds hilarious. Source?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...n-a6995826.html

quote:

Boris Johnson has criticised the US president Barack Obama and suggested his attitude to Britain might be based on his �part-Kenyan� heritage and �ancestral dislike of the British empire�.
Writing a column for The Sun newspaper the outgoing Mayor of London recounted a story about a bust of Winston Churchill purportedly being removed from White House.
�Some said it was a snub to Britain. Some said it was a symbol of the part-Kenyan President�s ancestral dislike of the British empire � of which Churchill had been such a fervent defender,� he wrote.
The White House said in 2012 that the story of the bust being moved was �100 per cent false� and that the bust remained in the White House, having been moved to the President's private residence.

# ? Apr 25, 2016 17:04

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

GaussianCopula posted:

It's kinda problematic for them to cite those countries, because they also had to agree to free movement of labour, which is one of the core issues for the leave campaign. But just last week the mayor of London and key figure in the leave campaign claimed that Obama spoke out against a Brexit, because of his Kenyan heritage which makes him hate the British Empire.

Well, they do have a point. The grand daughter of Sir Edmund Hillary, a proud son of the British Empire, will surely act more favorably towards the UK.

Pluskut Tukker posted:

(edit: to be clear, I'm all for the abolition of Luxemburg, seeing as its very creation was a historical accident that could be rectified in very short order ).

But enough about Belgium.

# ? Apr 25, 2016 17:05

Dawncloack: Nov 26, 2007; ECKS DEE!; Nap Ghost

Rappaport posted:

Hasn't the carrying theme of everything the EU has done at least since the crash of '08 been that the rules don't matter a whit, we just have to keep The Project going no matter the cost or insanity involved? If the insane mandarins who run the show want Turkey in, they'll get in, screw everything and everyone else. And what the mandarins want is of course utterly opaque to the average fellow on the street, so

Not exactly. The carrying theme has been "gently caress the working class, however we can get away with it". So yeah, the project HAS to go on at whatever cost, but let's not be vague about what the project is. The rest of what you say is true though.

# ? Apr 25, 2016 17:08

Riso: Oct 11, 2008; by merry exmarx

Pluskut Tukker posted:

(edit: to be clear, I'm all for the abolition of Luxemburg, seeing as its very creation was a historical accident that could be rectified in very short order ).

Do you prefer to give it back to the Netherlands or would you rather split it between Germany and France?

# ? Apr 25, 2016 17:15

Pluskut Tukker: May 20, 2012

Riso posted:

Do you prefer to give it back to the Netherlands or would you rather split it between Germany and France?

Why not give it to Belgium? Then they can deal with the impossible dialect they speak there. Plus the reason why Luxemburg became a separate country and not a part of Belgium (the need for the Prussians to garrison its citadel against the French) is not really relevant anymore.

Pluskut Tukker fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Apr 25, 2016

# ? Apr 25, 2016 18:16

heard u like girls: Mar 25, 2013

dutch metro journalist ebru umar arrested in turkey

#####fuckerdogan :P

# ? Apr 25, 2016 18:22

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Pluskut Tukker posted:

Why not give it to Belgium?

Because the next step is splitting Belgium into one half for France and the other for the Netherlands.

# ? Apr 25, 2016 18:38

Mars Needs Moms: Sep 12, 2013

Hammerstein posted:

Also there is one major difference between the likes of Geert Wilders or Le Pen and Norbert Hofer. The former are your typical Far-Right extremists, but the latter and his cronies also are hardcore nationalists, with close contacts to the European neo-nazi scene (like the German NPD) and the majority of the Freedom Party's inner circle are members of German-nationalist student fraternities, some even holding on to traditions like fencing (to first blood). There are some serious nutjobs among them with a giant hard-on for a Greater Germany.

There's a rumour that LSNS, Slovak neo-nazi party, that entered national parliament last month, got help in their election campaign from FP�. Don't quote me on this though, I heard it from a friend who is a journalist.

# ? Apr 25, 2016 21:46

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

LemonDrizzle posted:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...n-a6995826.html

Bojo is still mayor? Dang.

# ? Apr 25, 2016 21:55

Pochoclo: Feb 4, 2008; No...; Clapping Larry

Brexit campaigners continue to be the best Remain campaigners. Thank you racist tories, I was worried for a second there I might have to leave the UK. Alas, prosperous Serbia will have to wait.

# ? Apr 27, 2016 16:26

Riso: Oct 11, 2008; by merry exmarx

Pochoclo posted:

Brexit campaigners continue to be the best Remain campaigners. Thank you racist tories, I was worried for a second there I might have to leave the UK. Alas, prosperous Serbia will have to wait.

At the same time Obama seems to be the best unintentional Brexit campaigner.
Americans just can't help themselves. They have to intervene in everyone elses business.

# ? Apr 27, 2016 16:40

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Riso posted:

At the same time Obama seems to be the best unintentional Brexit campaigner.
Americans just can't help themselves. They have to intervene in everyone elses business.

Obama's intervention led to a +10 percentage point boon for the Remain campaign.

# ? Apr 27, 2016 16:47

Tigey: Apr 6, 2015

I doubt Obama's intervention was unintentional. Cameron probably ASKED for him to say something helpful on it, and the line taken was no doubt agreed well in advance.

# ? Apr 27, 2016 16:49

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

Tesseraction posted:

Obama's intervention led to a +10 percentage point boon for the Remain campaign.

Interesting! Not doubting you but do you have a source for that, I wouldn't mind reading it.

# ? Apr 27, 2016 16:51

Pochoclo: Feb 4, 2008; No...; Clapping Larry

Pesmerga posted:

Interesting! Not doubting you but do you have a source for that, I wouldn't mind reading it.

Well, there's no sourcing that kind of affirmation, but the "poll of polls" site shows a marked upward hike that came just after Obama's speech. Correlation doesn't imply causation, obviously, but I'd say it's highly likely that it helped. The only kind of people that Obama's statement would turn towards a Leave vote, would be die-hard Brexit ideologists, so no harm done there.

# ? Apr 27, 2016 17:14

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

So the Daily Fail is reporting that the evil ~~empire~~ EU is officially on the way to becoming a federal state (possibly because they like making GBS threads on UK freedoms) :thumbsup:

# ? Apr 27, 2016 17:24

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

Pesmerga posted:

Interesting! Not doubting you but do you have a source for that, I wouldn't mind reading it.

Obama has something like 95% approval rating in the "undecided" demographic and his intervention prompted Boris Johnson to make a even bigger fool of himself than usual.

# ? Apr 27, 2016 17:38

CasualTR: Apr 22, 2016; My Hunk of Silicon is better than your Hunk of Silicon

Tesseraction posted:

Obama's intervention led to a +10 percentage point boon for the Remain campaign.

I'm sure a few of the Brexit people seeing his threat of the UK 'being the at the back of the queue' in regards to a trade agreement and Obama's intervention altogether as even more reason to leave. Foreign inteference is hated by most of their camp (probably one of the main reasons to leave in their eyes).

# ? Apr 27, 2016 18:13

Riso: Oct 11, 2008; by merry exmarx

Tesseraction posted:

Obama's intervention led to a +10 percentage point boon for the Remain campaign.

Then explain

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-poll-idUKKCN0XN0PV

quote:

Support for the campaign to get Britain out of the European Union has risen in recent days, two opinion polls showed on Tuesday, suggesting U.S. President Barack Obama's call for the UK to stay in the bloc had not yet had the impact he wanted.

Forty-six percent of voters were in favour of a so-called Brexit, more than the 44 percent who believed Britain should stay in the EU, ICM said, citing the intentions of people who planned to take part in the June 23 referendum.

# ? Apr 27, 2016 18:18

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

I think Merkel should offer the Scots her support in them simply getting the UK's spot in the EU, should the UK leave and they go independent.

# ? Apr 27, 2016 18:43

Pochoclo: Feb 4, 2008; No...; Clapping Larry

Riso posted:

Then explain

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-poll-idUKKCN0XN0PV

That's actually really easy to explain: poll cherry-picking.
You should check this: https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/
It's takes into account all polls. The one from the article is there, even.

Also, again, the people who heard Obama and went all "EVIL AMERICANS I HATE OBAMA" already intended to vote Leave. No change was had there.

Pochoclo fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Apr 27, 2016

# ? Apr 27, 2016 22:31

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

A Buttery Pastry posted:

I think Merkel should offer the Scots her support in them simply getting the UK's spot in the EU, should the UK leave and they go independent.

France and Spain would do everything they could to shut her up if she tried to propose that.

# ? Apr 27, 2016 23:04

Cake Smashing Boob: Nov 5, 2008; I support black genocide

Cat Mattress posted:

France and Spain would do everything they could to shut her up if she tried to propose that.

That's okay. Brittany and Catalonia can have theirs.

# ? Apr 27, 2016 23:30

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

What the gently caress Belgium, entry #34534587 in a never-ending series: http://www.lalibre.be/economie/actualite/toute-la-belgique-va-recevoir-de-l-iode-57211c1735702a22d6d187ad

quote:

Ce ne sont plus seulement les proches habitants des centrales nucl�aires qui recevront des pilules d�iode � titre pr�ventif, mais bien toute la population vivant sur le territoire belge. C�est ce que la ministre f�d�rale de la Sant� publique, Maggie De Block (Open VLD), a expliqu� au Parlement ce mercredi (en commission Sant� publique de la Chambre). Pour rappel, ces pastilles d�iode permettent de prot�ger la thyro�de face � la radioactivit�.
Le gouvernement f�d�ral s�est donc rang� finalement derri�re l�avis du Conseil sup�rieur de la sant� (entre autres), qui conseillait de pr�voir des distributions d�iode � la population � titre pr�ventif (donc sans attendre, �videmment, un incident ou un accident nucl�aire�) dans un rayon de 100 km autour des centrales et non dans un rayon de quelques kilom�tres � peine (20 km) comme c�est le cas actuellement.

Everyone living in the country is to be issued with iodine pills because of concerns about the state of the country's nuclear reactor fleet.

# ? Apr 28, 2016 13:20

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Riso posted:

Then explain

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-poll-idUKKCN0XN0PV

Simple. It's an online poll. If online polls were accurate then Scotland would currently be an independent republic.

Looking at the poll of polls by the Financial Times you'll see if anything a jump around Obama's intervention. I'll admit it wasn't 10pp, but I was more saying it as hyperbole to your hyperbole.

# ? Apr 28, 2016 14:37

Ligur: Sep 6, 2000; by Lowtax

Austria passes a bunch of new laws and measures to curb migrant numbers :\

I guess it was a foregone conclusion that EU countries between Sweden/Germany and Italy/Greece take matters to their own hands (in a rather heavy handed manner to be precise), depending, what is in doubt is when they will do that. Also lol @ pissed Italy.

Counting the days before Austria's foreign reputation nose dives until destroyed permanently, then land slides, freak storms and finally plagues of locusts hit before Austria vanishes down a black hole... wait, not.

Ligur fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Apr 28, 2016

# ? Apr 28, 2016 14:43

bronin: Oct 15, 2009; use it or throw it away

LemonDrizzle posted:

What the gently caress Belgium, entry #34534587 in a never-ending series: http://www.lalibre.be/economie/actualite/toute-la-belgique-va-recevoir-de-l-iode-57211c1735702a22d6d187ad

Everyone living in the country is to be issued with iodine pills because of concerns about the state of the country's nuclear reactor fleet.

Switzerland already does this. Don't know since when though.

# ? Apr 28, 2016 18:01

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

bronin posted:

Switzerland already does this. Don't know since when though.

Its pretty normal actually, you can request Iodine pills in the US if your home is near a reactor, but its largely to address unwarranted fears.

# ? Apr 28, 2016 18:05

NihilismNow: Aug 31, 2003

LemonDrizzle posted:

What the gently caress Belgium, entry #34534587 in a never-ending series: http://www.lalibre.be/economie/actualite/toute-la-belgique-va-recevoir-de-l-iode-57211c1735702a22d6d187ad

Everyone living in the country is to be issued with iodine pills because of concerns about the state of the country's nuclear reactor fleet.

Why is that so strange? In the Netherlands municipalities in the part of the country with nuclear power plants (or next to Belgium) also keep iodine pills on hand in case of a nuclear disaster. It's no anti rad but it does prevent thyroid cancer from nuclear contamination.

# ? Apr 28, 2016 18:41

double nine: Aug 8, 2013

Yeah this isn't anything special. OTOH Belgium's nuclear reactors are obsolete and should be shut down and replaced. Odds of that ever happening are at flying pigs levels though because nuclear is unpopular and our politicians are experts in pass the buck policies and completely lack any long-term planning capability. Nothing will change unless externalities force the issue (germany/france/... pushes the issue or something bad happens at the plants)

# ? Apr 28, 2016 18:48

Sneaks McDevious: Jul 29, 2010; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Our home got government issued iodine at least ten years ago and we're in Ireland so....

# ? Apr 28, 2016 22:32

breadshaped: Apr 1, 2010; Soiled Meat

CommieGIR posted:

Its pretty normal actually, you can request Iodine pills in the US if your home is near a reactor, but its largely to address unwarranted fears.

People on the east coast of Ireland all got issued Iodine pills when there was a lot of upset about Sellafield in North England.

We still have ours, I'm hoping they will do fine for the nuclear holocaust even with the 2006 best before date.

edit: actually it was for 9/11 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sellafield#/media/File:Potassium_iodate_tablets.jpg

# ? Apr 28, 2016 22:37

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# ? May 13, 2024 21:51

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

Paul Mason wants Austria's EU membership suspended if the far-right candidate wins the presidency: http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...country-from-eu

quote:

On 22 May, Austria faces a presidential run-off, where the choice is between the leader of the far-right Freedom party and a Green standing as an independent. In the first round, the combined votes of the two main parties that govern Austria � the socialists and the conservatives � would still have had them running third. The far-right won in every region except Vienna, and, even then, won half of the Austrian capital�s sub-districts.

The swing happened despite the centrist coalition government putting razor wire on Austria�s border with Hungary, deporting thousands of refugees and demonstratively excluding Greece from the summit that effectively closed the Balkan route. Police in Austria report a 60% year-on-year rise in racist incidents, while those who monitor racism online report numerous instances of Nazi-glorification linked to anti-migrant hate speech.

Take a 60-minute drive from Vienna to Bratislava, the capital of neighbouring Slovakia, and you�ll find in the parliament 14 MPs from an outright fascist party and another 15 from a cleaned-up rightwing nationalist grouping. The socialist prime minister, Robert Fico, had fought the March election on a platform of accepting �not one Muslim� refugee and defying the EU quota system, and has now taken the rightwing nationalists into a coalition government. Two hours away is Budapest, where the rightwing nationalist prime minister, Victor Orb�n, is under challenge from the far-right Jobbik party. Jobbik once had a jackbooted militia but is now, too, trying to clean up its fascist image. An opinion poll last year found 24% of Hungarians willing to express open antisemitic views, with the figure rising to 49% in the capital.

Go north to Poland and the rightwing conservative Law and Justice party is busy altering the constitution to suppress judicial oversight of the government and stifle the press. Of course, the emergence of rightwing conservative parties that oppose migration and want to break up the EU is not confined to eastern Europe. We�ve got Ukip here and Marine Le Pen�s Front National, which is currently hovering just under 30% in the run-up to next year�s presidential election and would come first in two out of three likely scenarios next April.

But the combined rise of authoritarian nationalism, outright fascism and anti-minority racism in the east of Europe should alarm us more. First, because it�s happening in immature democracies, where the media is oligarchic and under state manipulation, graft is endemic and levels of democratic consciousness and traditions are low. When a far-right politician in eastern Europe wants to make the kind of transition Le Pen has made for the FN � from squadism to Chanel suits � it does not have to travel so far. Second, because it is not being driven by the normal driver of extremism � economic failure. GDP per head in Slovakia, for example, rose sharply after EU membership in 2004. And while unemployment there remains high, at 10%, it�s fallen by a third in the past three years. This is, instead, an existential swing away from centrism in eastern Europe � based on anxieties about traditional lifestyles, above all in response to the refugee crisis. Third, the rise of the far-right in eastern Europe is part of a geopolitical game. A report for the Martens Centre last year pointed out, despite the differences between the patchwork fascisms of the region, �their astonishingly similar stance towards Putin�s Russia�.

The European far-right not only shares Putin�s goal � the breakup of Nato and the EU � but sees his authoritarian, socially conservative nationalism as a model for how their own countries should be run. While the far-right in Europe is not simply a creation of the Kremlin, the concrete ties are manifest: regular appearances on the Russian media, regular visits, invitations to monitor elections in Russia and its allied states, and then money, with Marine Le Pen�s �9m (�7m) loan from a Russian bank the best known example.

Faced with these developments, the EU and its centrist governments seem paralysed. Article 7 of the EU Treaty allows a country to be sanctioned or suspended if it commits a severe breach of fundamental rights. But it needs two-thirds majority in the parliament and has never been invoked. This month it must draw the line in Austria. Europe must make clear it will refuse to recognise a far-right president in Vienna. It�s their democratic right to elect a cleaned-up fascist; it�s ours � by treaty � to suspend Austria from the EU.

We know the EU can act ruthlessly against a government it does not like � because we watched it try to smash the most anti-racist, pro-social justice government ever elected, in Greece last summer. Today the countries that stood alongside Germany in its attempt to boot Greece out of the euro are the same ones who refuse to take refugees, whose media and judiciaries are under threat. As Europe dithers in the face of the authoritarians and racists, the populations in the mature democracies that founded the EU should insist: our grandparents didn�t defeat fascism in 1945 to see it weasel back into the mainstream now, dressed in suits instead of uniforms, but trailing the same pathetic victimhood that excused the crimes of the past.

Has a good summary of the rise of the populist/anti-immigration right across Europe, although it wouldn't be a Mason piece without at least a few inaccuracies and bits of silliness - afaik the Polish Law & Justice party are very keen on NATO rather than wanting to see it dismantled, and the invocation of Greece is completely spurious. Also, the central claim - that electing an arsehole could be defined as a severe breach of fundamental rights meriting suspensions of membership - is patently absurd. Still, interesting.

# ? May 3, 2016 09:22

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

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